I would use the rules for trainng, especialy the material in Ordo Nobilis t reflect this.

Training a non-gifted redcap is just like training anyone in anything thats not magical. it shouldn't be treated any differently.

I had a character in my just ended Rhine saga that did just this. The player made sure to increase their leadership and lectio to points where he could train multiple redcaps at once.

Jeremiah

I would say that if the opportunity to train an apprentice came along and the magus took it, work out what objections others in his house (it applies beyond mercere) would have to say about it.

If things got contentious, maybe even the bonisagi would have an opinion and if they felt the character was unworthy to train an app, they might step in.

If the character decides to train the apprentice despite a number of deficient arts, these should translate into flaws for the apprentice.

Just my take.

Does the Order have some sort of 'social worker'/'health vistor' checking up on apprentices and their training? If a child was being failed by a magus it would normally only be apparent to covenant sodales.

Imo the Master should acquire >=5 in all Arts before the fifth year of apprenticeship or risk the apprentice developing deficiencies in the delinquent Arts. I don't believe a strict reading of the >=5 rules is either necessary or helpful to the majority of Sagas.

Well, that depends on a number of things like the House in question, how closely tied your PCs are to the Order and how much their House likes to keep tabs on them.

House Bonisagus might be very hot on making sure that their members understand the harm they could do if they train someone without being "fully qualified" (I personally think that this house is ripe for some kind of internal pseudo-academic prestige rankings - maybe when I have time). If the character is in close contact with others of his house, word miht get back to concerned individuals who may wish to check up if they feel the PC is underqualified to take an apprentice.

Ex Misc. may be a different kettle of fish altogether. If they find an apprentice, who is going to check up on them? Who among their own house cares overly what is going on with another unrelated magus? I do feel that in this case, it is the knowledge of the parent tradition that may be more important than the hermetic knowledge, but to each their own.

Somewhere in the middle we find the rest of the Houses. They might not check up as diligently as Bonisagus, but they might take an interest (through correspondence) in the progress of the apprentice and a patron may be on hand to offer advice where it is accepted.

I agree about a strict reading of the 5 point rule. In my case, if you don't have the arts, then you can't teach them, in which case, there are deficiencies on the cards. I do like the 5 year option though...

Mark

In any case, a fairly new magus can achieve >=5 in all Arts fairly quickly (225 exp vs 150 starting = +75 exp). If a 10+ magus takes an apprentice, who's going to question it?

Also, I imagine (WGRE be damned) the first few years of apprenticeship spent learning Latin, Letters, Magic Theory and Lab duties. Unless the apprentice begins fairly old (>10 years), I think initiation in Arts might be delayed until this point.

Another point is that under Heremetic Law an apprentice can only be taken from a master if they fail to give 1 season per year training (apart from as a legal penalty or Bonisagus fiat). There is no legal requirement in Arts. In fact there cannot be, as non-hermetic members would not be able to take apprentices.

Iirc an apprentice can seek another master if they fail their gauntlet three times (can't recall where this was). This humiliated the former master as it inferred his training skill was inadequate. But this is well after the fact wrt the current topic.

I agree on the saga-dependence. In the saga I am involved in, I am trying to stress House ties over just membership of an order and a division within that house.

I picked Bonisagus to illustrate my point because I do feel that they would have a vested interest in the progress and abilities of those being taught under their name. If they hear about a junior magus training an apprentice before they consider him able, then we may have some tension arising.

The Tremere, I feel, may not be that strict on pure magical power so long as the apprentice knew what was what in the pecking order stakes.

I am with you on the latin and magic theory thing.

With regard to an apprentice being taken... well, there is the law as the final arbiter. Up to that point any amount of "persuasion" could be fair game amongst some houses.

Quite. But the bottom line is 'Why would a SG wish to discourage PC magi taking apprentices?'

It can't be from a powergaming pov. Losing a season a year is far more 'costly' in powergaming terms than any benefit. Taking an apprentice is a character development thing; it's assuming the role of parent. It's the sort of thing SGs should be encouraging imo. There is no way I'd dream of making life impossible if a player had such a goal.

The most I'd ask is that the character study up to the required level asap.

Player characters are often immune to things that befall their non-pc brethren. So, while Bland of the Covenant of Banal had his apprentice "relocated", the same fate may not befall our valiant PC.

It comes down to this:

player: Can I have an apprentice please?
SG: Do you have 5 in all your Arts?
player: Well... no.
SG: Of course you can have an apprentice... but you realise it could be hard work...(scheme, scheme, scheme)

Here our scheming SG has realised that he can bring in some House politicking and make the PLAYER work hard to keep the apprentice, which counterbalances the SG's generous streak in allowing him to do it in the first place.

The danger will be the player simply feeling it is an SG excuss to have senior magi bully his character... Senior magi bullying covenant is standard, but individual characters may seem too much.

Perhaps you might like to develop this concept? How would you run it?

It doesnt matter that you dont have a score of 5 in Ignem, and the apprentice has no interest at all in learning Ignem. Your overall understanding of the universe and the things in it are too weak to explain certain principles. When your last art reaches 5 you are, in a way, enlightened. Now it is clear to you how the elements work together and you understand it all well enough to take someone else and show them some of the basics, thus setting them on the road to eventual enlightenment.

It is also why Magi hate to see their apprentices go. Sure the apprentice knows how to cast some spells, but the objective of a Magi isnt to see what kinda spells he can cast, but to reach that level of enlightenment which allows them to spread the news. However, you just cant hold an apprentice back once he's passed a test and he really needs to go see the world to reach that level of enlightenment.

Sphynx

I do think it would be a matter of "house rules" on what the difficulties would be (if he gets 5 in all before the fifth year then no problem vs. magic deficiencies and poor art scores for the apprentice etc).

As for the bullying aspect (both senior magi and sg), that is something that would be worked out inthe troupe. If the PLAYER wants the character to take an apprentice very eary, then he must have some characte driven reason for doing it. Some aspects of the character are supposed to get him into trouble not out of it. If the player is doing it, then (and this may just be the warped way my mind works) there must be an understanding that events will follow.

As for developing the concept, I would go more for the "phone calls" from the "in-laws" followed by on-spec visits if they get no satisfaction.

I would also introduce a bit part character who "gave up" his apprentice to another member of his house - digging deeper, the players may find out he was coerced and the reasons were fairly minor.

While primarily a single character thread, it would bring in the whole covenant if they are asked to provide hospitality to the visiting senior magi. Even more so if they are asked to appear before a council of that house to give evidence as to their colleague's magical knowledge.

Of course, we soon find out (and I'm giving the game away here) that the senior magus "concerned" for the apprentice has other nefarious motives and it comes to our heroes to uncover his naughtiness and save the apprentice.

Okay, so that in a nutshell would be my first approach to dealing with a player request to get an apprentice. If the player wants to do it, let him, but if the character really can't handle it, then make it difficult. Let the player enjoy the difficulties (he will after all be the star of the story) and at the end, let him keep the apprentice.

Rules something there to be changed or ignored.

Some thoughts:

According to WGRE a magus spends one season initiating Techniques and one initiating forms. Iirc this was assumed to take place at year one and two of apprenticeship. However, there is no legal requirement for it to be.

Therefore years 1-5 may be used to ground the apprentice in Latin, Letters and Magic Theory. After this the Arts need to be initiated or the apprentice's Gift might begin to manifest spontaniously; interfering with future Hermetic ability.

If a child is already manifesting strong magic or begins during apprenticeship, initiation should be done as soon as possible.

This is under SG control and so can be tailored to fit the story.

House rule:

When initiation happens a score of 5+ in all Art required to ensure the apprentice does not develop a deficency in an Art. If the master has a deficency in a Art the apprentice will often inherit the deficency unless special effort is made. A magus with a minor deficency must study the Art to 9. A magus with a major deficency must study the Art to 12.

However, there is not certainty about either inheriting or not inheriting a deficency. There should be a wide standard deviation, factored by the masters exact score in an Art. A master with 4 in an Art has a small risk of creating a deficency, whereas a master with 0 has a high risk. A master with 30 in an Art has a very low risk of the pupil being deficent (more likely an Affinity), but the risk is still present.

As you can see I favour a more naturalistic/probablistic approach rather than a simple Yes/No.

That sounds like a good storyline.

As for why a PC magus might want to take an apprentice early, I have an good Saga example.

A few years ago I ran a maga who began the game with a 1 year old child. The SG decided he had the Gift and so the drive to take an apprentice was compelling. Certainly the idea of the child being taken away was horrifying to the character.

Obviously this raises the emotional stakes. As it happens the child was taken as a legal penalty. However, this storyline was never resolved.