Occult Lore has been out for a while now, and I'm curious to hear what people think. Personally, I'm very happy with how it came out. But I do have questions about things, and since I know at least some of the contributors frequent this group, I thought look for answers.

I'll start with Magical Imagination. Personally, this was one of my favorite sections. I think that the Heralds are an extremely interesting idea for a power group, and I really like the Heraldic Knowledge power (effects aside, I think the concept of communing with the sum knowledge of the Heralds is great).

I actually only have one question here, and it's pretty darn trivial: In the story that opens the chapter, what is going on mechanically behind the scenes? As I see it:
* The heralds are hiding.
* They use Heraldic Knowledge to commune with nature; I assume the fact that it's harder for Wyllan is because he has a worse Concentration skill?
* Leogan communes with the herm.
* They vanish.
It's this last part that puzzles me. Where did they go? Is this Teleport to Locus? If so, why did they need to commune with the herm before doing it? Is the idea that she was getting a locus from the herm? Given that they were in such a desperate situation, it seems like "anywhere but here" would be good enough, so I don't know why she wouldn't teleport to some other location she had memorized (as a herald of high enough level to teleport, I'd assume she'd have a locus or two memorized). Or is there some sort of herm-related power or restriction on teleportation that I missed?

Anyhow, I certainly enjoyed the Heralds -- I'm just curious if I missed something while reading it.

-Keith

I get the whole basic idea and mechanics for the Logic skill. My question concerns cases where two logicians engage in a debate. According to the rules, "Once successfully convinced of an argument with the Logic skill, a person will believe the claim and act upon it as fact until he's shown indisputable evidence to the contrary."

So, two logicians get ready to argue. The first speaker establishes her premises, makes her conclusion, and makes her roll. Now:
* If the opposing character fails his Sense Motive check, can he continue the argument? Basically, as he is now convinced that the first character's statement is in fact true, can he use Logic against it or must he use Bluff, since he would rationally believe his own viewpoint to be a lie?

Assuming that he can use Logic (or that he made his Sense Motive check), the second character gets ready to speak. However, there is an audience involved here, as well.
* Does debater #2 need to specifically disprove the premises and conclusions of the first speaker as part of his argument? Or can he just start from the original point and completely ignore what the first speaker said? IE, if the first speaker started with the premise "The moon is yellow" and ended by concluding that the moon is made of cheese, does the second character have to address her arguments at all, or can he start with "the moon is yellow" and take a different path leading to his conclusion, "the moon is a gold coin"?
* If the audience was convinced by the first speaker, does the second speaker take any kind of penalty trying to win them over? What if the first speaker took more time, established more premises, etc – does this affect an attempt to disprove the case?

Finally, assuming that debater #2 wins the audience to his side, and debater #1 comes back on the scene: Does she need to come up with a new set of premises and conclusions to win the audience back, or can she simply restate her original argument and roll again? If she comes up with a second argument, does she still suffer the retry penalty?

A more trivial question on Logic – does the synergy bonus for Diplomacy checks stack with the bonuses a character receives from Bluff and Sense Motive?

On to the Skeptic: The Logic skill requires a minimum of three rounds to use. In the opening story Gizzeldorphus appears to be using Logic – he's taking a little time, setting forth premises, and coming to a conclusion. He's also clearly using Refute. But Refute only takes one round to use. So my question is, what is a character doing when he uses Refute? Is it supposed to involve a logical discourse – just a considerably shortened one? Or is it more mental in nature – the skeptic just looks at the target and thinks "I don't believe in you"? The power is said to only affect creatures within the range of the skeptic's voice, but it does not specifically say whether the skeptic needs to speak or move to use the ability. Does he? Can he refute magical ropes that bind him, or a spell of silence that keeps him from speaking?

-Keith

I just got Occult Lore in the mail yesterday. I'm loving it so far. The first chapter I read was your _Spirit Cultivation_. I'm working on a spiritualist type class and looking for ideas to "borrow". Loved the gleaner, very original and the Key to Divinity idea was great.

Next I read the _Rational Magic_ chapter, very cool and original as well but I'm not sure I'd be that excited about a character that doesn't/can't use magic items (in the same way that I can't imagine playing a Forsaker from Masters of the Wild).

Actually I found these boards because I have a question about the _Astrology_ section. Specifically the Create Spell Tailsman feat. It sounds like a wand with unlimited charges that only costs 100gp per level of the spell but that can't be right. The only other thing I can think of is that you can cast the spell chosen into it as many times as you can (like loading a gun) and then use it whenever you want up to the total number of spells you put in. The advantage would be that you don't have to pay the price of creating a fetish everytime you want to cast the spell you just pay the one time fee. There is an example but it really doesn't help clarify everything.

Any idea if Adam is ever on these boards?

I'm glad you are enjoying Occult Lore. I don't know if Adam is on the boards, but to answer your Astrology question, a Spell Talisman is a reusable spell fetish. It does not actually cast the spell, as a wand does -- instead it is something that the character needs to cast spells at all. Basically, it lets the character ignore some of the usual limitations of his class. Note the second to last sentence: "As long as he possesses those spell talismans, he no longer needs to make fetishes for those spells."

Anyhow, let me know if you have questions about my stuff!
Keith

http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/reviews/rev_6890.html

~Alex

It's an interesting class, I'm not sure if the level of complexity is extremely high or if it's just not written as clearly as it could be. I've been playing D&D for about 25 years and I had to read a lot of it twice before I understood it (and even then I still ended up here asking questions).

I'm looking forward to _Crime and Punishment_ which I got at the same time I got _Occult Lore_. I'll let you know if I have any questions.

Thanks for the review too, AL3XWHITE.