I've made this thread the place to talk about the merits / opinions of an Ars Magica for D20.

DISCLAIMER: I'm just making this thread so that the other thread about Ars Magica 5th Edition won't be eaten up by D20 talk. This isn't an endorsement, denouncement, prediction, or anything else - it's just an attempt to keep the folder clean.

Discuss Away! I'll start:

D20 would be (great / horrible) for Ars Magica because it would (increase the fanbase / destroy the integrity) of the game, leading to (better / worse) future supplements. Objectively, it simply (is / is not) in the best interests of Ars Magica. Please (do / don't) make a D20 version of Ars, Mr. Nephew.

d20 vs. d10: I think a 20-sider can be better 10-sider for “stat + skill + mod + die roll” systems. A greater range of random numbers lets you use a larger scale for character traits and a bigger variety of modifiers while keeping each trait meaningful. Character growth can be tracked with more detail.

Modifier stacking: I’d like to echo other posts; d20’s systematized method for stacking (or not stacking) modifiers is great! Let’s steal it.

Characteristics/Attributes: Ars Magica has more combat stats than D&D does! Where D&D gets by with Str, Con, and Wis, ArM is stuck with Str, Sta, Dex, and Qck. In my opinion, this is the source of ArM’s combat mechanics woes. Each combat stat has to be given an important role in combat. ArM has four, so ArM’s combat system has to be very complicated to accommodate them all. Since ArM is not about melee, I think you could go farther than D&D and chop ArM’s physical stats down to two—such as Physique and Quickness.

Experience: I don’t think d20s experience system would work with Ars Magica’s world without some serious tweaking (one way or another). ArM play is focused on the troupe as a whole. ArM Sagas are about the life of a covenant—player HQ, the best plot device for fostering player cooperation and story continuity I’ve seen. The primary plot device for getting players players interested in setting up covenants is ArM’s study & enchantment system for magi. In d20 stories, adventures are the main source of character power-up, and d20’s Challenge Rating and leveling system reflects that. I imagine it would be tricky to set up a satisfactory study-system add on without skirting close to d20 license violation.

But what about all the old magi that can't move fast but have great dexterity?

I like to reflect differences like these, not on the characteristic level, but on the narrower level of virtues & flaws (or feats in d20 terms).

For example: The current dodge feat tree in d20; A feat that gives a +2 competence bonus to Craft skill checks for being adroit or; a feat that gives a +2 competence bonus to Finesse or Ranged Weapon attack checks.

I am also intrigued by BESM's method. Intended to reflect the hyperconfidence of anime heroes, BESM just has *one* physical stat: Body. With a high Body you can be strong, fast, nimble, healthy, or what have you. In the over-the-top world of anime, those differences are disadvantages. So, to be a hulking slow brute, you get a high BOD and take the "slow" disadvantage. To be a graceful gymnast, you get a high BOD but the "not so strong" disadvantage.

I think these methods of generalizing physical stats (but permitting specializations through ads & disads) could be a good match for Ars Magica, because it allows a deemphasis of melee for the typical magus but also permits crunchy, punchy fights for combat mages and companion characters.

One of Ars Magica charms is how it plays against type. Its an adventure game where the typical protagonist would rather stay home and study! 8-)

Adam

Also, I'd have to agree with someone on another thread who said AM needs to make itself more amenable to those who don't want to play a "historical game" but a more "mythic" one.

My $.02.

-Sherm

p.s. John, if you decide to do this, I wanna be onboard!

In philosophy, in nearly every way, Ars Magica does not mesh well with D20. Putting out YET ANOTHER d20 version of some non-d20 game is just a waste of money.

So, I was doodling little hearts on the cover of my Player's Handbook, 3rd Edition -- right around the name "Jonathon Tweet" -- when I came across this little gem.

What?

The core mechanic of d20 *is* Ars Magica. As for philosophical differences, look at Call of Cthulhu (Monte Cook has to settle for little XXX's and OOO's around his name...)

While I now have to go home and reread it to make sure I'm not remembering just the good parts, having read both the d20 version and the version just prior to it, I have to say the conversion was done with great respect and pinache. Not only can you convert a CoC campaign to d20, but they even added a little appendix in the back so you could convert a D&D game to CoC.

Why, given the opportunity, *I* could shoehorn Ars' current study/training rules into the d20 "level" system. Levels as plateaus of ability are accidental, the key point here is that both systems use XP, and XP can be spent.

The magic system is even easier!

And after those two, I don't care. The rest is setting, and that doesn't depend on system.

Okay, I lied, the combat mechanics *are* different enough to cause worry as to flavor. But something could be done about that, too, I'm sure.

(All that being said, I'm still for "Appendix" over "Complete conversion")

I've looked at d20 CoC. I remain unimpressed. That it compares at all favorably to the BRP version is a testiment more to the fact that the latter desperately needs a rewrite rather than any strong merits of its own.

That said, I wouldn't object to an appendix if it would increase sales. I think too many people worry about wasted page count and don't focus on the postive aspects of more people playing the game. If the GODLIKE people are right, the d20 rules get people to buy the book, but they end up playing the core system anyway ;)
Kevin

Atlas has proven that it can produce D20 material of the highest quality, so the product itself shouldn't be a problem.

I doubt ArMD20 would be a big success here in Germany, though. Our D20 fanbase isn't that large, a German RPG dominates the market.

However, a conversion to the basic core mechanics of D20, while also doing away with classes and levels, and toning down hit points, would be completely viable, and fairly easy to do. Godlike has exactly this sort of conversion. Add to the D20 core mechanics the ArM magic system, convert virtues and mysteries into feats, possibly create a game mechanic for flaws, and create a study and training-based experience system, and the conversion is done. That way the gameplay is virtually the same as D20 games, character sheets look similar, but the "behind the scenes" saga aspects of ArM are preserved.

I was torn when they made Lot5R d20 and cant even play it anymore. All these old GREAT RPGs are disappearing into the D20 blackhole and getting lost due to a lack of originalty. Ars Magica and Shadowrun are both forbidden to ever go D20 by me! :P Well, if they do I wont play those versions anyhows.

Sphynx, the Winged Lion

I do agree that not every game should be d20. I believe, and I may be wrong, that Legend of the Five Rings uses their own system with d20 stats thrown in. I think this would be the correct way to go with Arc Magica. The old players still get what they want, but Atlas gets a chance to draw in new customers. The new players might even like the other system better than d20 and make the switch.

Why I ask is, if the book does or will contain these new rules / guidelines, will they allow conversions from other Atlas Games D20 back to the current Ars Magica D10 products and vise versa?

As I can see a book which contains these type of rules / guidelines a possible advantage to the current D10 fans, who will not want to convert to the possible new system of D20, as they will now have access to a lot more books if they choose to want to convert aspects from Atlas Games other systems to use in their current D10 game.

I can see some people wanting to convert to the new way of D20, but personally I am a die hard fan of the Ars Magica D10 and will not want to cross over to the D20 system, but if there will be official rules for converting to or from each system, it will allow me to collect more books with the possibility of converting back to the D10 system.

This is all on the presumption that the Ars Magica is going to be compatible with the current Atlas Games D20 systems, which I am guessing is pretty much a given fact.

Thanks

Sir Parn Prince of Court of the Great White Oak

This could change before publication, but it isn't likely to.

David Chart
Ars Magica Line Editor

~Alex

Coriolis just avoids the whole issue of trying to fit square pegs into round holes. It takes as an assumption that you're just about playing two different adventures, depending on which system you use.

Easy = DC10
Average = 15
Difficult = 20
V. Diff = 25
Impossible = 30

Rather than doubling.

EF 3 = DC6
6 / 12
9 / 18
12 / 24

doesn't look good and I don't think it really works for D20.

~Alex