Ars Magica Backwards Compatibility/Legacy
From: Abank Posted on: 8/6/2002 1:48 pm
To: ALL
Message: 69.1
>>>>Yes, I know the above breaks with backwards compatibility, but we don't want to let compatibility with previous editions hold back progress.<<<<

I believe this is a key point to any discussion of ArM 5th Ed — so crucial a point that I think it deserves a new thread. :)

How important should backwards compatibility (or “legacy”) be when re-imagining Ars Magica?

At the very least, legacy needs to be broken down into game mechanical legacies and setting legacies. Compare “Traveler: The New Era” a commercially & critically unsuccessful revision of both setting and mechanics, to “GURPS Traveler,” which uses completely new mechanics with the “classic” Traveler setting.

What value would you place on ArM’s mechanical legacy or its setting legacy?

I imagine that would greatly depend on the goal of any revision. For example, a goal of “bug fixing,” I imagine, would place a high value on the mechanical legacy, as the goal is to fix what is already there rather than start anew, and an even higher value on setting legacy.

Thanks!

Adam

From: FCTBox3 Posted on: 8/6/2002 9:19 pm
To: Abank
Message: 69.2
in reply to: 69.1
Since it works so well that even WotC adopted it, I think some ironclads should be:
Stats run from -5 to +5. The exact number and names of stats is variable.
Skills run from 0 to as high as you can get experience for.
Decisions are made on a dX + stat + skill roll vs. a target number/ease factor/level/whatever. The precise die could change, up to d20, or down to d6, or you could change it to d7. Whatever. Again.

Dice can botch. They can also score higher than their top face. (Rerolling on a '1' in the current system, but that could change.)

I could digress on d20 at this point, but that's another thread.

Some other things seem core:

Spells and Lab Totals are Technique + Form + Stat vs. a target (either spell level as it is now, or an ease factor to steal Michael's Artistic Abilities, but those are just labels). Which implies that magic is divided into techniques and forms. The exact list of arts *could* be changed, but it'd have to be planned very, very, very carefully, the return on investment would really need to be outrageously high, and something would have to be done with any arts that suddenly disappear. (Case in point: If you lose Imaginem -- just a random example, really -- then there should be a rule to convert a 4th ed magus' Imaginem score into something 5th ed useful -- an Affinity with Illusions, a Glamour Virtue, whatever.) While I like Lab Totals' margin of success accumulating from season to season, it could change if someone offered something better. (Something that mimicked the training/study rules would be cool, just to reduce the total number of mechanics. IE: A project accumulates XP until it has a "Completion" skill of its magnitude. I may think it would be cool, but it may not be better, in which case...stick with what we got.)

Season by season education. Characters grow even when they aren't actively adventuring. *Some* form of training and study rules are needed.

Combat's fair game, no one's really attached to the combat system. You could start a CCG with *really* clever deck construction rules for all I care.

On a related note, feel free to completely rewrite the skill list again. Strange...I never mentioned pyramid points. Maybe they aren't important.

Okay, I've pulled all the low-hanging fruit on mechanics. Now to turn on the stream of consciousness for Setting:

Europe. Of course. Order of Hermes, no getting around it. Church, Faeries, Nobility, the whole bit.

Magi form covenants, are members of houses, and live in tribunals. There are 13 houses, no more, no less; I could list them by name and personality, since that seems fixed, but we know who they are. One house is probably dead, but you *might* be able to get away with moving the entire setting to before (or during!) the Schism. Play with the Tribunals if you want.

Praeco. Primus. Archmage. They stay. (I could also digress on why the dual hierarchy -- Tribunal/House -- is a good thing, but some other day. OTOH, Archmages are just cool.)

Apprentices. Gauntlet. Familiars. The Code.

After that, most of the flavor is predicated on individual House personalities, so maybe it *should* be looked into more closely. But not by me.

Maybe I went into too much detail. Maybe I answered the wrong question. But it was fun.

From: MichaelTree Posted on: 8/9/2002 2:34 pm
To: Abank
Message: 69.3
in reply to: 69.1
Rather than trying to decide how conservative the change to make as a whole, it may be better to discuss what ArM's "sacred cows" are. What aspects of the game, both game mechanical and setting, would make the game "no longer Ars Magica" if they were changed? Once we decide on that, we'll know what specific aspects should be preserved, and what specific aspects can be completely redesigned from the ground up if neccessary.

That's what the designers of 3rd edition D&D did as their first step in creating the new edition.


Edited 8/9/2002 2:37:14 PM ET by MICHAELTREE
From: spuwdsda Posted on: 8/16/2002 10:17 am
To: Abank
Message: 69.4
in reply to: 69.1

Imo both are important, but both would benefit from improvement.

I think its possible to revise the Order substantially while keeping the basic structure intact. I don't mind a reality break, but I'd like to retain the Order as recognisable.

The same goes for the mechanics. Imo the ideas in ArM4 were good, but they appear to be at draft or first playtest stage. Much of the confusion of 4th Ed is down to their unpolished nature.

If they were simply polished up that would make a great edition. However, there have been a number of great ideas since first publication. David Chart's revised Magic Resistance rule is one.

However, I think you have far more room in terms of mechanics when you come to a new edition. I wouldn't mind seeing radical ideas proposed. As long as they are well done and thought out I wouldn't mind big changes to the magic system.

From: Al3xWhite Posted on: 8/25/2002 12:47 am
To: Abank
Message: 69.5
in reply to: 69.1
I want to see most of the old stuff compatible with the new book. However, if ArMV uses the stat + skill + die mechanic, then the only things that should need to be changed would be some of the skill names, the levels of a few spells and a new character sheet.

Hopefully the new character sheet's got a few more places for skills.

~Alex