I find that most of the Mysteries are remarkably compatible with Hermetic Magic -- which is as it should be. In fact, I've found the bonuses fall into several broad categories:
Casting and Lab Bonuses (Vulgar and Philosophic Alchemy, Imaginatio Magica, other "counts as an affinity" virtues)
Vis replacements and sources (Philosophic Mercury, Hermetic Inception, Alchemical amulets, etc.)
New ranges, durations, and targets. (Hermetic Astrology, Oneiromancy)
New Lab projects (Elixir, Automata, Periapts, Inscription, Parhedros)

With the exception of new lab projects, all of these complement and build upon, rather than replace or contradict, Bonisagus' great theory, to slip in character for a moment. And lab projects are generic enough that guidelines for new ones more or less fit right in anyways.

And then there's Theurgy. Hermetic Theurgy flies in the face of standard Hermetic Theory by placing an extreme amount of attention on Vim and Creo to the exclusion of other forms, but that's okay -- at least it's still Hermetic Magic. The real mystery (hehe) is Ars Notoria. It's entirely outside Hermetic Magic -- its description even says it can be learned as a type of Hedge Magic.

Since I know the authors read this board, (and I'm frightened of the Berklist...) I wanted to ask them: Were you inspired to write Theurgy first, then the other Mysteries to fill out the book, or did you get the other three mysteries off first, then tacked on Theurgy at the last minute, or am I really overanalyzing the situation? What's the story here?

And finally, as an attempt to shove Ars Notoria into the Hermetic framework, I offer this rules modification: Roll for success as normal, but instead of adding Theurgy to any rolls in pursuit of your goal, you add 2*(the magnitude of a relative form) to the roll. (Using Arts as Abilities, you'd just add your Ability score for that form to the roll). To follow the example in the book, our magus facing the clan champion can choose to add an appropriate form to a roll four times, decided at the moment of the roll. So if the duel starts out with swords, he can add Terram to his hit and/or damage roll to represent earth spirits balancing or sharpening his blade. If it then devolves to a wrestling match, he can add Corpus to his wrestling roll to make himself stronger, or Terram (again) to "encourage" his opponent to lose his footing. In any contest, he could probably add Imaginem to some rolls to insure that a certain amount of glare continued to blind his opponent.

The ad hoc in character explanation hinges on "rational play." A player is likely to pick whichever form he has the highest score in, and try and stretch the situation to allow his favored form to apply. This leads to an IC excuse: Developing your Form score makes you "attractive" to airy spirits of the appropriate type -- Flambeau magi tend to have a few otherwise unnoticed fire spirits cavorting in their "aura" -- and when you make the Ars Notoria call, it is these spirits who are likely to help you first, and the greater their quantity/quality, the more they can do to help you at any one time. You're still limited to your Theurgy roll for the *number* of times they help you though (in the book's example, 4 times).

(Sanity check: If a player is smart enough to ask why he can't use these cavorting spirits for other purposes, the problem is that they're individually gnat sized...you really need Ars Notoria to convince them to coordinate their efforts in a way that's beneficial to you.)

When we proposed The Mysteries, we stated we would write up Alchemy, Astrology, Magical Imagination and Theurgy. I'd be hard pressed to think which one is my favorite. I like them all.

I didn't think about the disconect the way you di. I guess I could imagine a version of Ars Notoria that takes n account the Hermetic Arts like you sugget.

Jeremiah

If I hadn't intentionally been looking for generalizations among mysteries, I never would have noticed it, and it probably never would have bothered me.

But if Mysteries is rolled in with the main rules for 5th (Yeah! Yeah!) these kinds of questions become important, since it suddenly becomes a lot more popular to develop house rules for "new" Mysteries.

Oh well. I talk too much.
BTW, this and Kabbalah are my two favorite supplements. But for some reason, I always blame Jeremiah more than Adam (or David, but he didn't help with Mysteries...), maybe cuz Jere talks more. Go figure. Kudos to all of you.

Glad you like the two books. Adam and I are used to being borg-ified. We are really two people, honest.

An yes, I'm the gadfly-loudmouth of the pair.

Jeremiah

There have been several good ones in Hermes Portal. I'm a big fan of David Chart's Faerie Mystery. Though, as I was cmmenting to my wife this morning, I haven't had a Merinita in a saga I've run in 10 years.

I have to submit my Enigmatic Wisdom Mystery to HP. I rather like it.

Jeremiah

Screw it, I'm weak.

Yah, I like David Chart's Faerie Mysteries, too, but since I'm the one who suggested that his Lesser Glamour rules be lifted wholesale into a new Illusion Exceptional Knowledge (If you accept the restrictions of Glamour, you may apply your Illusion score as an affinity to *any* Creo or Muto spell) ...and then lose Imaginem as an Art, that sorta leaves the Merinita empty handed when it comes to a +3 virtue.

Which segues to a potential Imaginem replacement, Spiritus. It's *my* thread, I'll take it where I want! MUA HAHAHA! The power!

Spiritus is The New Form. It can specifically affect *any* Might score. If a creature is defined by its might score, the loss of all might destroys the creature, otherwise, it simply leaves them powerless (at least until they regenerate their Might...) Thus, Perdo Spiritus: Demon's Eternal Oblivion is now a misnomer, since in addition to outright destroying demons, it'll destroy Ghosts and disembodied Faeries, and, if God isn't paying attention or is feeling nasty, possibly even Angels, it can deprive Faeries of their power, and turn beasts of Virtue into normal beasts. If a demon's *possessing* a creature, instead of just using phantasmata for its form, you can reduce the creature to 0 might, and still won't know if you exorcised a demon or crippled a beast of virtue. Or, with Creo, it might be able to restore Might, or *transform* an animal into a Beast of Virtue. But (limit of energy), that would prolly require Vis, if possible at all.

If a creature of Might is possessed of an intellect, and its body is not affected by Corpus, Animal, or Herbam, then Spiritus is the form to use to mimic Mentem effects on said creature. It's worded funny, but this is targeted at one thing only: Elementals. Creo Aquam gives you a nice heap of water, but it needs to be CrAq(Spiritus) to summon an elemental. I made it general in case someone can think of another "exceptional" case. This also means controlling demons, daemons, or other "disembodied" spirits would be ReSpiritus (Creatures of Might whose bodies are affected by Corpus -- most human like faeries, for example -- are affected by Mentem as normal, and creatures of Might whose bodies are affected by Animal or Herbam -- again, mostly Faeries -- continue to have their minds affected by Animal or Herbam as normal.)

That covers all my pet peeves about dealing with spirits -- namely
a) You can detect demons by destroying them.
b) Mastery of, say, Terram make-the-ground-fertile magic makes you a master of Elemental spirits as well.
c) Transforming a ghost into a mouse (even if just a "ghost" mouse) is a *mentem* effect.

After having put so much thought in it, it's probably a bad idea to remove Imaginem -- too drastic -- but this would be a fun house rule nonetheless.

Off to bind my tongue! (Won't help, but I can try)

I hold that this is vim.

Jeremiah

Back to the search. :)

I'm not addicted. I can stop posting whenever I want.

Only because I've lived as a harried single dad for the past year while my wife went to grad school a thousand miles away or so...and as soon as she returned home, my Bar Exam woes began. :)

But I'm back! 8-)

As I recall, we wanted to use hedgie-feel rules for Ars Notoria because of its gameworld background. The Notary Art of Solomon was exactly the sort of thing we pictured wise non-Hermetics to employ, so we created "exportable" mechanics.

Okay, Jere will probably roast me for saying this, but: You'll notice that Theurgy powers lean in two different directions (we even talk about it in the intro). While designing the powers of the two paths, I called them "the Way of the Jedi" and "the Path of the Pokemon Monster Trainer."

What do you think the Inyx is for?