Deepr characters? Good grief. I've yet to meet a system it is harder to generate a deep character in than D20.

Maybe just watch a whole evening of action films with them then run an off-the-cuff re-enactment of something. Or just tell them that today you will run FS and they'd better get used to the idea. That's what I do when I feel like changing systems.

Take their D&D character sheets and then convert them into Feng Shui archetypes. Now run them through a D&D adventure/scenario with the Feng Shui rules. Run it like an action movie, and encourage them to be creative. If they have more fun with the Feng Shui rules... well, it shouldn't be too hard to draw them all over to the non-d20 Dark Side.

D&D is not the every man system but it does handle fantasy rather well and has a nice body of work, some of it by Atlas, to help support that.

As far as "Deep", what are you talking about? System wise? Background wise? I mean if it's background, it's as deep as you want to make it and the Hero Builder's Guidebook is perfect for novices to help them with their ideas.

And they say they want 'deeper characters' and 'less action'?? It certainly doesn't sound like it.

But be that as it may, have you considered that maybe it'd be easier to find other people more suited to the game system than these dudes? I mean, I might like to play 'Pokemon: The Roleplaying Game', but I know for certain that my D&D group would look at me like I'd just sprouted antlers if I suggested it. Nothing I could do or say or show them would convince them to try it, so I'd be resigned to finding some other players. Perhaps you should just go that route?

Riddle me this….

Can you think of a game that is better supported?

Can you think of a game that has done better research into mechanics and player preference?

Can you think of a game that a more balanced system, that takes into account almost all variables?

Remember folks, it’s a roleplaying game. In the end, the game is what you make it. I have played deep, intelligent, and thought provoking games of D&D. I have played juvenile, number crunching, power gaming sessions of Vampire. Remember the old saying, “Garbage in, garbage out”.

Feng Shui's rules are superb for its own background. Wouldn't play d20 FS, and my gaming group would probably agree. We've got folks in the group that have gamed for years and complete newbies, and all of them like the quickness of the mechanic. The system is quick, dirty, flexible, and allows for mooks to be easily taken out with a church bell without having to think twice about how they're doing something.

Ghost: I've got Chucking Things About, right?

GM: Sure...

Ghost: Well, that guy shooting at us is standing in a church bell tower, right?

GM: Sure...

Ghost: Well, there's a bell there, right?

GM: <sweating and laughing> Umm...sure...

Ghost: So I'm going to chuck the bell at the mooks all in that pack by the door.

Abomination: Ooo! Bowling for mooks!

Killer: Wait a sec. I'm behind them!

GM: Yup. And there are claymores attached to the door. but that's ok. Ghost, get a +2 for a cool move.

Ghost: <rolls a 30 and cheers>

Killer: Oh FUCK...

That exchange took one roll and the Ghost, who is a new player of RPGs, got to pull off something fabulous (the Killer, by the bye, took a shot and actively Dodged - for all the good it did her from the bell and mines) and much fun was had.

Again, a beautiful system that gains from encouragement by the GM and creative things to do on the part of the players. but it doesn't work half as well if you don't have a willing GM and a lot of creative people.

Terjay: I respectfully submit that your aversion to D&D might have less to do with the game system than with faulty or inexperienced DMing by your gamemaster. *Any* system can be abused, and it's up to the referee to keep the game balanced and enjoyable for all. That's his job. I have both a 12th level wizard and an 11th level cleric in my gaming group, and neither just saunters carelessly about a dungeon wasting hordes of enemies with a sweeping gesture. There are concerns about initiative, casting time, spell disruption, spell miscasting, anti-magic, all manner of issues that keep spellcasters (or any class) in line. Maybe you just need to find a different DM?

For us Feng Shui fans here:
As far as Feng Shui goes, I really like their character creation system, background story, theme, mood, etc. and I like that the combat system is -supposed- to be fast and furious. But I quite frankly find that the 'shots within a sequence' system is confusing to some and hard to track. (Trying to remember when everyone goes during a fight with 30 people is not easy when everyone's using Fu schticks or doing other random actions requiring variable shot costs.) Has anyone come up with a simpler but equivalent way of tracking combat sequences without breaking them down quite so much? Just curious. If I do away with the Shots altogether, it makes schtick costs and Chi points moot, which I don't want to do.

It's all about the visual cues.

...and may I say that I am unendingly amused by that fact that you are not only a monkey, but a *dancing* monkey! That extra bit of descriptive makes the whole thing worthwhile.

Seriously, it is easy to let the shot clock get in the way of good story-telling. The best thing to do is to conceptually think of sequences and shots not as three-second intervals (I really think that's ridiculous, m'self...) and more of a generic period of time to do cool stuff. It's a small change, but it makes all the difference in the world.

Oh, and changing the XP rule to be only 1 XP/session extra per FS site for long campaigns. But that's another matter.

Things like '5 foot steps' or 'attacks of opportunity' are kludges. They indicate that the system is unrealistic, because a good system wouldn't need kludges propping it up.

-Albert

Now, please forgive my ignorance. What is a kludge?

-Drew

What D20 combat is, is a small-scale tactical wargame that's trying to simulate cinematic/dramatic. It doesn't seem to do either very well, in my opinion.

Note that _outside_ of combat, Tweet has streamlined the game enormously(okay, okay, inside of combat, too) and gotten rid of most of the obvious kludges. Some of them I miss, too, such as the ability of a Rogue to concentrate on a couple of skills. However, DnD _still_ uses levels and class skills, which I rather hate(unless there are solid in-game reasons for them).

-Albert

GM: The woman opens up on you with her Uzi, Maxine.

Mad Maxine: Where's the nearest cover? (Drew: a mistake - always make a dash for the objects that are right _near_ you, even if the GM hasn't described them yet)

In d20 - this is the tendency:

GM: A bunch of metal cannisters. They are right here on the map (draws them in)

Mad Maxine: fifteen feet away??? Oh, I'm so toast...

In Feng Shui:

GM: A bunch of metal cannisters. They're a ways away.

Mad Maxine: Oh shit. I fake to the right and full-out sprint, leaping so that I hit the ground right where the cannisters cover me and pull out my guns to return fire when I come up.

GM: Ok. Take an extra shot to pull the guns and since they're a ways away and you're running in a straight line for them, take only an active dodge of +2 instead of +3.

Mad Maxine: <evil glint in her eye> But I've cover now...

Several, actually. GURPS sort of leads the crowd, but there's Deadlands, Vampire, and a couple of others.

Some counter-examples come to mind... can you name any other system that needs over 700 pages of *BASIC* rules just to begin play? Can you name any other system that is so badly organized and unbalanced that you *need* to buy *hardcover* supplements with over 160-200 pages just to close down some of the loopholes and grey areas? Can you name any other system that has such a massive built-in exponentially expansive system for incorporating new play/character options that is even now beginning to bog down into very narrowly defined feats and prestige classes? Can you name any other RPG that has brainwashed their players into thinking that they have to *buy a book* in order to make their character more interesting? And can you seriously compare this other system to one that elegantly packs everything you need to play into one single main rulebook?

> Can you think of a game that has done better research into mechanics and player preference?

Can you think of any other game that *NEEDS* that level of research just to explain the poorly designed, cumbersome mechanics and to address player preferences that other RPGs can cover more effortlessly in a single rulebook?

> Can you think of a game that a more balanced system, that takes into account almost all variables?

Covering every complicated special-case variable does not lead to a more balanced system... quite the opposite, actually. It bogs the system down with needlessly cumbersome mechanics that forces the players to spend more time arguing about and looking up the rules than they spend on roleplaying and enjoying the game. Curiously enough, it does make the game *quite* appealing to those players who enjoy arguing about rules more than they do roleplaying. Not that I should be stereotyping... but this particular point of yours has been argued to the point that going into it here would be pointless. Different people want different things out of games, and where you see a well-balanced system, I see a mess of special-case headaches and a very poorly balanced rules set.

Keep my Feng Shui fast paced!

Just like the movies that it was meant to encompass.

That is all.

Neil.

I don't bear any particular grudge against 3rd Ed. It's certainly much, much cleaner than 2nd Ed (although I've seen some head-cases arguing that 2nd Ed was better - in reality probably because it is easier to munchkinise). D20 system certainly has promise, although I haven't tasted any non D&D materials yet.

When I run Feng Shui, it takes me around ten minutes to prepare. I already have ideas as to how the character can hace opportunities to develop and what the major plot-arc events are going to be. All I need then are a few groovy locations, three fights and a talky scene.

If I were to run D&D, I would have to buy three hardback books and spend a great deal of time drawing square maps and poring over monsters to try and make it balanced. At least 3rd Ed. has challenge ratings... So much rules-lawyering goes on in D&D.

I have to disagree with the assertion that D&D combat is realistic. D&D combat turns into a boardgame or a wargame where you think and manouevre to best advantage. Nothing like even pseudo-realistic combat. At least most systems give the GM leeway as to how cinematic the combat is to be.

Hmm. Sounds like a good way to get a point across to me. And by the way, my GM could beat up your GM any day.

And have I mentioned the usefulness of rubber and glue in this debate? Because I could, if you'd like.

Oh, and have you checked out the validity of an argument in which you have the ball, and thus shall go home with it?

However, from a GM (and designer) standpoint, there are things I'd change. I just wrote a book for Monkeygod Enterprises for d20, and it was like pulling teeth to stat all the characters. Skill points, feats, stat advancement, and the like all had to be taken exactly into account for each character, like a series of story problems. :) Monster design was even worse, as there's just enough of a system in place that you can screw it up, but still not so much that you can avoid eyeballing it. Compared to that, Gorilla Warfare was a dream to write. Need stats for a character? Well, what looks right? Need a new rule? Slap that puppy in there! :) Ultimately, that's one of my gripes with d20--it's too structured. It feels like a computer RPG brought to tabletop. (My second gripe is that the Profession skill isn't a class skill for fighters. Dwarves are the primary fighter class, but they can't be dwarven miners...that's a profession. You can't have pirates who are fighters...sailing is a profession. GRRRR! And yes, I realize I can fudge that if I'm GMing...but I can't when I'm writing a sourcebook.)

My other big gripe about d20 is its ubiquitousness. I go to my local hobby store, and 75 percent of the shelf space is d20 material. Good games with interesting ideas are getting pushed off the shelf by d20, and there are times and places where d20 just doesn't fit. (d20 Star Wars, for example...the old "archetype" system worked better than the new "class" one. I'd have used Feng Shui as the rules engine for Star Wars. For one thing, it explains why stormtroopers go down in one shot, but characters wearing stormtrooper armor have better protection.)

Ultimately, what I'd like to do is to create a fantasy game using the FS rules engine. A bit of modification to allow for different races, which then fit into templates, and some tweaks here and there, and it's good to go. Ah, but that's just dreaming. :)

well i personally like d20 D&D, and d20 star wars... though i prefer d6 star wars...

the only d20 games i actually own, are D&D and star wars... but then i own a hodge podge of games anyway

Heroes Unlimited, Mystic China, Ninjas and Superspies (Palladium books)

2nd Ed AD&D (bunches of books)

3rd ed D&D (just the main books really)

Scarred Lands (I love that setting, 3rd ed campaign setting, done by Sword and Sorcery)

Vampire: the masquerade, Changeling the dreaming, Werewolf the apocalpyse, mage the ascension (and various supplement books for each, white wolf)

Elfquest (LOL, my wifes game)

Star Wars D6 (plus the gms guide, west end games)

Star Wars D20 (plus supplement books that arent really for the games... the complete guide to.. books)

The Riddle Of Steel (great game by driftwood books)

Rune: RPG (with modifications by me of course... and now branded a heretic on the atlasgames mailing list for doing so)

Star Trek: TNG (pretty quick and simple game, it really works well)

Adventure! (white wolf, but since its not the World of Darkness, i didnt wanna mention it with the rest)

that doesnt count my 3 campaign setting (dragonlance, dark sun, and forgotten realms, all 2nd ed)

i get RPg books if they appeal to me, the last d20 book i bought was Scarred Lands... and that'll probably be the last one for a while, i may buy some from scarred lands, like city books, or monster books, but i have no desire to pick up any of the class books for D&D, all my friends have them..lol..i did see Feng Shui down at my local game/bookstore, but after flipping though it, i wasnt very compelled to get it, after all if i wanna do martial arts action movie stuff, i'll play mystic china, if i wanna do pulp action movies (indiana jones, phantom, mummy) i'll play adventure.....lol

Y'see, here's the central question to me: would the cost of converting FS be worth it to Atlas Games? If you're simply talking world and backstory, you can take d20 Modern and map everything over with minimum effort. You can be Cool in any game system. Oh, there'd be a few new rules for Feng Shui sites, but it's all pretty much the same. Grab the Coriolis tweaks and you're ready to go.

But if you wanted to put out a whole new, 1-to-1 conversion (and isn't that the point - making the glorious, gratuitous ass-kicking of Feng Shui full of d20 lovin')? That, to me, is just plain bad business. I mean, you can do it (someone is surely bright enough to figure out a great way to do a total conversion), but is it worth it? Look. FS is a small system. I think it's a _great_ game, but it's something of a niche, just as Ars Magica is, just as Over the Edge is, just as everything Atlas puts out is, with the exception of all of that stunning Penumbra writing. If you look at what Atlas has put out in the past several years after recovering from the bust in the CCG market, they've done two things: gathered games that have a small but rabid fanbase - games that are high in prestige for those in the know, but low in players which their players will inevitably snatch up - and the Penumbra series. The cost of finding someone who is willing to take all that is one of these smaller games and convert it to another system seems to be prohibitive - the cost-benefit analysis looks like a high risk for putting out Yet Another Big Sourcebook for a d20 Game out on the market. Call of Cthulhu d20 works because there's a lot of people out there who are familiar with the CoC world. Feng Shui? Well, not so much.

Atlas seems to have quietly prospered from making a lot of low risk moves while retaining a lot of very cool games. If John doesn't want to get involved immediately with what I consider to be a bit of a big gamble on the part of Hasbro/WotC, more power to him. And if d20 Modern _does_ take off, then Atlas Games reconsiders, we get UA/OtE/and-or/FS d20, and everyone goes away happy.

Alternately, you can just mine the kickass FS backstory and gather your posse of d20 ass-kickers, with whom your will kick the ass of the kickback ass-story. Or something like that.

Hear, hear. Personally, I'd model races in one of two ways: Either have 'Elf' or 'Dwarf' as archetypes in their own right, or have limits on what race can have what Schticks. This seems wrong, but these 'racial' schticks could represent facets of that race.

So, Halflings can have schticks that centre on avoidance etc., Elves could have some airy-fairy schticks and so on.

This does seem better than the 'all people of this races have these abilities' system. It implies some training is required.

There was, in fact, an attempt at High fantasy FS from Team Saskatoon at: http://www.sfn.saskatoon.sk.ca/~ac419/FengShui.html but it's down. It looks like they're resturing and may be back at some point.

With the FS system you could probably overshadow those modifications with your bonus points, so I suppose one could add a cap (you can't increase a single attribute more than 5 points over its initial value during character generation).

Mind you, race-specific schticks could be fun, too.

How about non-human characters get stat penalties (or penalties outweighing bonuses), but can choose a couple of race schticks from their list?

As to race schticks...um, yeah. I'd thought of that. Sure. Really. :)

As to specific schticks (the Empty Bottle query), they'd be different from FS (although compatible, natch.) FS is designed to emulate cinematic kung fu, this game would be designed to emulate cinematic fantasy fighting. They'd have different styles.

John Seavey

Yeah, I suppose so. But still: Dwarves... Beer... Drunken-Style Boxing... It's a logical progression!

well from a fantasy style aspect (AD&D/D&D) i have always viewed dwarves in my games as mroe militaristic, and martial than most of the other races... ya know?... almost klingon in a way... and i always wanted to play a dwarven martial artist, but no one would really let me, which pretty much upset me, because in my head, i always saw a dwarf doing whatever it took to drop an enemy, if it meant pummeling him, then fine...

anyone else share that?

Who wins the contest between Legolas and Gimli? I rest my case.

depends...whos got the axe, whos got the bow?......lol

also... depends on the 13th warrior clause...ever see the movie?... go watch the aercher get his ass beat down

yeh, i have the setting, i just dont have any of the city books.....lol, i really need Hollowfaust, and Boruk Torn... cant remember if i spelled that one right.....lol

theres actually a bit of books i need.....lol

Case in point: I love spy games, and I truly feel that one of the best designed ones ever was TSR's Top Secret/S.I., but I could never get anyone around here to play it. Thus it has effectively sat unused on my shelf since 1988. Then...along comes Spycraft. A d20 game but well designed and full of the same kind of coolness that TSSI has. All of a sudden, I'm running a spy game, because since it's based on d20, which they all know, they're willing to try it.

Ryan Dancey refers to it as the "network"; the more players there are for a game, the more likely you'll be able to find someone to game with.

Atlas Games is a business. A business exists, among other things, to make a living for it's employees. So why continue producing games just for "niches within niches", when you could maybe produce one that you can actually make good money on?

I like Feng Shui, I really do. I just think I could get people to play a D20 Feng Shui a lot easier.

Allen