Claudio

PS: Sorry for my poor English but I'm italian and I'm able only read english not write it very well.

Jeremiah

~Alex

Sanctuary of Ice was officially removed from the schedule, pending visibility on a realistic release date. It's a long story, but suffice to say that work IS being done on it, and I have hopes of it being done not too far in the future. When we have a final, edited manuscript in hand, we'll formally re-announce it with a firm release date. (Since most or all of the artwork is already done, that release date should be easy to make, whatever it works out to be.)

Claudio

From the little I have been able to get to, it looks really handy. Our saga is set at around the time of the hostilities mentioned in the book, so hopefully we can use this content straight away.

Thumbs up. Good book.

Niall

you'll no doubt be happy to hear that it went down a storm at last night's session. Somebody mentioned the Levant and out came the book.

Everybody wants at least a detour through the near east now.

We are playing in 1189 currently so we get to play in some of the more openly hostile times which should be good.

I'll need to read further into the book to get all the detail for these times (and I might come and tap you up for inside info on this period) but I think this is going to be realy good for giving the game a whole new feel, no matter whether it is for a few sessions or longer.

Mark

Glad to hear that the book is a hit with your group. Please feel free to pull on my earlobe if you have any questions (and that goes for anyone else reading too).

Niall

Basically, $5. I was weighing the options of going $24.95 US for softcover, or $29.95 hardcover, since both scenarios seemed to give me the results we needed on my spreadsheets. After another couple of months of sales results, I'll sit down and compare the actual numbers with my projections and see how it shakes out. We're definitely listening to feedback from stores and consumers, too.

(It's kind of complex to analyze, though. Someone who decides the book is not a "must have" at its price might, even at $25, still decide it's not a "must have," and it might be better to buy a $12 cover price WW-era Tribunal book of the same length instead. The only thing I can see in the numbers so far are that the initial figures are higher than the initial sales of The Bishop's Staff, and the sales through outlets where we have some retail-level transparency -- such as Amazon.com and Warehouse23 -- seem to indicate that folks are buying it. For all I know, almost all of the copies that are in regular game shops could be languishing on the shelves indefinitely.)

> I saw the book in Playin' Games in London today.

If you're in there again soon, and you see Jaymini, tell her "hi" from John and Michelle at Atlas. :-)

John,

Put my vote down for not liking the hardcover. I'd rather have seen the difference go to extra page count if possible.

Jeremiah

Seconded. A hardcover does not make me want to buy a book more (not that I realise anyway). Thirty more pages would. It's a subjective thing but if I hold Kabbalha (160 pages) it feels like a book with a good quantity of material, but when I hold The Mysteries it feels a little light.

The Mysteries is great, but imo its obvious its been pared to the bone.

Extra page count isn't likely. 128 seems to hit just about the optimal balance; beyond that, we really see diminishing returns, as the amount of time involved in editing, layout, and the amount of artwork, etc., all increases proportionally -- but the return does not (since we don't, say, charge $22 for a 128 pp book, and $44 for a 256 pp book). Going hardcover simply requires a higher cash investment, but does not really have an impact on the human resources side, the way that increasing the word count does.

~Alex

Still, as a consumer I would like to see books at 160 pages.

But as much as I am enjoying the book, I think it could have done with more content. I know your argument against more content was from the human resources aspect and not the printing angle but I look forward to the 5th edition which should, in my opinion, change the line layout and design to put more content on the page.

I would be happy to pay more for an even higher quality product but I need to see some colour in the books, more flavour coming through (better maps, high quality illustrations etc)and more content.

I know a 5th edition has been mentioned a lot around here, but can John let us know his thoughts on how the production aspects of the line will grow rather than the game (setting and mechanics) itself. I guess presentation should come after content, but I am a paying customer...

Mark

The truth is that the graphic design of Ars Magica is still the framework that Jeff and I hacked together in 1996. We can do a lot better today, as demonstrated by work like Nyambe.

I'd prefer to see just a normal book. Colour plates have the unfortunate propensity to look shocking.

~Alex

As for the first group, we want easy access info. I think personally, not sure about everyone else, some charts, and many more examples are a high priority. As for newcomers, well, when I look for a new game to play, I tend to look through the books for char-gen, and some character examples so I can see what my possibilities are as a player or storyteller. Neither one of those groups seem interested in how much color is in the book (though the cover is a different story entirely).

If I had a request for ANY new game books, it would be examples, because they are usually easier to understand than rules. Show me what a ranged combat and a melee combat goes like. Maybe this should go under the 5th edition thread though... sorry for being a bit off-topic.

Sphynx

We were discussing the relative merits of hardback vs increased page count. I stated that I would be happy to pay more for books going forward for a higher quality product.

Personally, and this is an argument I have raised before in connection to the poor artwork in the 4th edition rule book, when I buy a book like an ars supplement, I am buying a product, not just the words on the page. If it was just the words on the page, I'd be happy to download it off the net.

I would like to see changes to the layout and internal design, and John Nephew has already addressed this point. I am taking my reference from the seemingly successful D&D3 books that manage to combine a lot of information with some good design and layout work.

Good art is a must for 5th edition. Someday I should get off my arse and submit some of my own to Atlas.

Obviously, 5th ed's layout will be utmost in John's mind.

~Alex

Spike Y Jones

yes I've surfaced. Much more into wargaming these days, and also a group of SF games run out of www.pastpers.co.uk by a good friend Jim Wallaman. How are things with you?

Spike Y Jones

Claudio

It confers a certain social status, as you have been accepted (incepted) as an (as you say) Master of Arts at one of the european universities. It gives you bonus ability XP and the social status.

>2 do the virtues Educated and Further Educated (page 46) make up for it?

Further Education is on p.41, and yes, both Educated and Further Education can make up for this, although I'd suggest taking Classical Education from *The Mysteries*.

~Alex

3. Yes, the Azhar and Bayt al-Hikma madrasas (religious colleges) do exist at this point. I would suggest using the Islamic versions of the Educated and Further Education Virtues (Blood and Sand, page 46) to represent the character's basic education at these. Further study would lead naturally into one of the intellectual Companion Social Classes on pages 46-7 of B&S.

I hope this helps,

Niall

I want to bring some Levantine politics to the Roman Tribunal (1194). I had planned initially to have a group of Islamic Hermetic magi turn up and ask for support against the aggression of the Crusader magi. But then, I go back and read that by this time, Magvillus has intervened and a concorde of sorts is in place.

What kind of niggles and pressures could the Islamic magi still be under that they might want to bring it to the Roman Tribunal in search of support? Thinking about it, they might want to bring it before Magvillus once more and see the Tribunal as a powerful and direct way of achieving this.

Did you have any specific rivalries between characters that you didn't outline in the book? I'm very keen to bring out the personalities of the magi of the Levant. Unfortunately, our game is set 30 years before the book so quite a lot of the material won't apply to us just yet.

I'll check back with my notes later, but I think those are the points I'm stuck on at the moment.

Thanks for any help or advice,

Mark

A few thoughts. There is indeed currently a treaty between the crusading and counter-crusading magi in the Levant. However, remember that this was imposed on the magi by the Quaesitores. There is still bitter enmity between the two factions. Foothold and Aedes Veritatis are particular rivals, and Rufus de Clary would be more than keen to strike at Sharaf al-Din 'Umar, given the opportunity.

On the slightly wider level, here's a thought. What if not all the quaesitores at Magvillus supported the Crusades? That might be a reason for Islamic magi to seek to make contacts there. Islamic magi might be agitating for an official declaration of opposition to the Crusades on the part of the quaesitores.

Another consideration: even before the Crusades, there were favourable trade links between Italian cities and the Levant. These expanded during the twelfth century, to the point that the popes repeatedly attempted to impose bans on trade with the infidel, largely to no effect. Each crusading expedition that took place interrupted the trade relations, but only temporarily. However, Muslim reprisals against western merchants following crusading attacks, and other related rises in tension, would not be welcomed by magi interested in trade. They might well be willing to lend a favourable ear to your Islamic magi, and be keen to cut off the cause of tensions at its root...

I hope this gives you some material to work with.

Niall

Edited 11/19/2002 12:14:15 PM ET by NIALLCHRISTI

It has really got me thinking over the last week or so. I reckon this whole issue will become one of my recurring plots once our characters settle into their own covenant.

Mark

Niall

And talking about Hârn, there is an artist who has done very much work for Columbiagames, which I remember have done some work on ArsM aswell, a long time ago. His style is pretty gritty and (to me) realistic. Do this ring a bell? Can't remember a name myself. Anyway, loved his work, use him (or her) as well!!! Or at least i would consider that a very good idea!

I don't know offhand of any artists in common between Columbia/Harn and Ars Magica, besides Eric of course. (Eric did both woodcuts and his regular pen-and-ink work in the first ever Atlas product, Tales of the Dark Ages.)