How many people didn't know what they were missing out on? Will many people find a use for this product? I'll buy it, but I won't necessarily use it. :-/

~Alex

Jere

Jeremiah

~Alex

I guess it works fine if you want a game 500 years earlier than the rest of Ars Magica.

Jere

Back then, I think the various traditions of magic become much more distinct and interesting. One of the minor drawbacks to ars as it stands, and which mysteries is addressing, is that your magic works the same as my magic which is the same as her magic. Before the Order, this is not so much the case.

What would this source book look like? Well, expanded history for the earlier period, prominent towns and cities and famous wizards (specific traditions can be gained from the existing source materials). There would be a new flavour running through the game as the concepts behind the study of arts will no doubt have been changed, and this makes up a large part of the current ars game.

I'd be open to buying a book like this, especially if there were foreshadowing in the details of events to be described in "future" ars releases (hang on, that sounded like a request for cohesion... ).

I guess it will have a different feel to Ultima Thule, but my initial enthusiasm is somewhat diminished.

If the saga ideas give some hooks into a larger Europe and suggest ways of drawing the region into the Order's interest, then great, but I doubt I'd set a saga all the way over there. Could be interesting as a minor saga that we could play between main sessions.

Still, being an ArM junkie, I'll get the book and see what its like. At least it'll have a load of storyseeds to plunder.

~Alex

word,
Will
Atlas Games

Which books would these be? There has been 1 book in 4 years touching on the center of Europe. All the regional supplements Atlas has published have been about the peripherary.

Jeremiah

word,
Will
Atlas Games

Ed

The biggest holes in the Ars lineup are the central Tribunals and a general lack of specific information about the house heirarchy. If needed - put out a combined tribunal book - all those not yet covered. But I doubt you are that short on material. How about winding a few mega - order wide plots into it. Demonstrate how a large plot can involve participants from the Order, Church, Nobles and Secret Societies. In theory - most apprentices are "raised" in these areas before moving out to the borders to build their own covenants. Provide us with the information to build the background to the order.

You have provided us with the historical records of kings and popes - how about the various house primi and a summary of issues raised at past tribunal meetings. What about examples of Wizard war and the consequences - what about a list of the order's most wanted? What about a half a dozen arch magi documented and their tests for arch magidom. What about what it was like before the order was formed. Some detail on the founders - what could they or couldn't they do that is different to now (1220). A list of the 100 most common books in the order.

Like many others I do not restrict myself to the 1220 start date - I will ignore whatever I don't like but it helps to have something to use or ignore. Nature abhores a vacuum.

Its a good question. I still, dispite the various discussions on GO, Berklist and here can't see any great resource base in the back (frozen)waters of Iceland. That is going to allow resourcce wise a large group of Magi to exist there. The place just isn't a hub of magical understanding, the secondary resources (foregoing the natural vis supply) just aren't there in the 1200.

Maybe we are just going to get more hedgies.

I guess its just easier to deal with the edges of the Order than the heartlands. This makes its simipler to write, research, playtest, cross reference and ensure that the plots, example characters, timelines etc with the book are not going to go against the canon of the other books in the ArM4 line.

SoI would have solved a lot (well some) of DMS's (and others, like my) issues. But I gather SoI is buried (frozen) in editing hell...

Gary

The basic answer is that Ars Magica 4th edition supplements have largely been determined by what freelancers have happened to write for us. I would suppose that a lot of freelancers feel more free to tinker at the edges of Mythic Europe, rather than face the Canon Wars over what is "really" there in the heart of the continent.

In retrospect, this is not the best way to run the product line. When we get a 5th edition out, you can expect that the release schedule will be dictated by the publisher and line developer, and freelancers will be assigned to write specific books that serve the needs of the line, rather than whatever they personally fancy. However, it's worth noting that a "what does the line need?" approach is likely to put tribunal books in general low on the list.

For my money, the Rhine, Normandy, Transylvania, Thebes and Provencal. Those are the books I want to see. Of course, I am still gagging for the Greater Alps so anything you guys can do to get that book out would be great.

Books on specific great cities of the time would also be great to see (I have an idea for this that I'd like to work on at some time).

More info on the "history" of the order that SGs could refer to and build upon would be nice. I'd even go for a dedicated volume on this that expands on tribunal and house customs and culture by explaining their origins.

Building on that, a dedicated source book for each house (okay, that is a bit world of darkness, but I'd buy them if we learned something new in them).

Updating of old 3rd edition content, bringing into the 4th/5th edition fold comes way down the list as far as I'm concerned.

Mark

* Divine realm book
* Infernal realm book
* Faeries book (it's out of print now)
* Covenants book
* Order/Houses of Hermes book (the supply is running low)

These are all titles that I think are more important to a new edition of the game than any tribunal book, even one about the heart of the order. Sure, people who have been playing the game for years already have old 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition books on those topics -- but to keep the game healthy we have to have versions for people attracted to the new edition (or attracted back to the game after time away). There are a lot of Tribunal books available, and the fact that the heart of Europe has not until now been done just increases the odds that any given long-standing Saga has established for themselves what's going on there in their own world.

Having said that, if there is a tribunal book in the first 2-3 years of releases (which there probably will be), I agree that it should be one of those regions you mention. (My guess is that the release schedule will aim for roughly 4 releases per year.)

How can you know what a central tribunal source book will sell like when you haven't released one (White Wolf did Rome and Iberia and they were not particularly good IMO) - we wait with baited breath for SoI?

If a single book won't sell then one covering two or three tribunals in the centre of the order would raise it's sales potential. Normandy and Provencal, Transylvania and Thebes. Rhine would be best with Italy with a Holy Roman Empire theme.

For example, here are the top selling supplements in the Ars Magica line over the past year (not counting the new releases, which have the big spike of initial sales):

1. Wizard's Grimoire Revised
2. The Mysteries
3. Ordo Nobilis
4. Houses of Hermes
5. Medieval Bestiary Revised
6. Kabbalah
7. Heirs to Merlin
8. Hedge Magic
9. Ultima Thule
10. The Mythic Seas

If Faeries had not run out of print, it would have been in the top 5 easily. Likewise, if we had current editions of the Maleficium or Pax Dei, the past sales records indicate that they too would be competing for top 5 slots.

(If you're curious, Iberia and Rome are neck and neck for their sales -- and each one sells about 1/7th what the Grimoire sells.)

Bottom line: Every saga wants a book like The Mysteries or the Bestiary. Only a few sagas want any given tribunal book, even a major tribunal like Stonehenge. The sales figures bear this out.

We need to focus on the books that every saga wants.

I see two problems. One is that you'd be shortchanging the primary purpose of the book. If I purport to give you a book on the Church, and half of it is describing the Thebes tribunal, you might be a little peeved, especially if you were expecting a book full of exciting crunchy bits for Church-based companions, miracles, or whatnot. Similarly, tucking a few tidbits about a tribunal into another book is shortchanging the tribunal. We've certainly found no shortage of material to fill tribunal books, as demonstrated by the heft of The Dragon and the Bear or Heirs to Merlin. Trying to do both things at once makes it more likely that neither will be done well.

Let me ask, why is it that you think more tribunal books are very important? What does your game need that these tribunal books would provide?

My fear is that tribunal books are mainly appealing to readers, not players -- they are halfway to being a novel, appealing to people who want to know the big picture of Mythic Europe. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'd like to hear from people in what they are using and how with respect to these books.

So, about that change in pay rate....

Jere

Each of these extend the information people have on how the order works. None of the other Tribunal books detail the operation of the order in a major working Tribunal (Rome is primarily a story). None have any real detail on Tribunal history - peripheral code decisions - how the major houses are run and operated from a covenant point of view.

If I have a campaign in a tribunal I want details of that tribunal and those tribunals around it. Unfortunately every tribunal book details a tribunal so far away as to be unimportant. They do not detail the prime covenant of any houses. The tribunal books should not be about scenarios they need to be about the history, lore, lineages and plot threads. All the things that make the top three or four books best sellers.

I can get plenty of medieval history information from other sources - historical figures etc. What I can't get is a map of a tribunal detailing the major covenants. Information of who the primi of all the houses have been for the last 4oo years. Information of Tribunal specific peripheral code decisions. Who is banished from the order and why. What the lineage of Tremere, Criamon and Jerbiton look like. What books are common in a central covenant. What are the rare and wonderful aspects of the order. What organistation structure does House Bonasagus have to store and maintain the knowledge of the order. When a Tremere is summoned to Coeris what does he find?

If I have a campaign in Novgorod I want the Tribunal books for Rhine, Transylvania and Thebes as well - not Stonehenge or the Levant. If I have a campaign in the Levant I want Thebes as well. If I have one in Thebes then I want Levant, Transyvania and Novgorod. Why would someone with a covenant in Stonehenge want a Tribunal book in Novgorod or the Levant (you can plot them there but it is a pilgrimage). But Normandy and Rhine and Lion of the North and Hibernia - Yes.

By limiting your development (to date) to the furthest corners of Mythic Europe you have lost the collateral purchases of neighbouring tribunals. Fill these tribunal books with information like the Grimore and Mysteries (not mostly mundane history and scenarios like they currently have) and you have yourself a best seller - Yes?

Magi can live hundreds of years - mundane history is fleeting - the only real constants in there lives are their peers.

I bought - Wizards Grimore (3rd) as it had information on what characters could do - Golems, Lichs, Apprentices, new spells, Order history and lore. I bought Mysteries because it extended existing characters, new spells, new abilities, secret societies. I bought Ordo Nobilis for the new abilities and mass combat. I bought Order of Hermes (2nd Ed version) - for the wealth of knowledge about the order and the specific houses (great to induct new players). All these I refer to regularly.

I started my First Crusades campaign in Stonehenge - (at the time no Tribunal book) - Normandy (no Tribunal book) - Rhine (no Tribunal book) - Transylvania (no Tribunal book) - Thebes (no Tribunal book) - Levant (Finally waiting on delivery). You have saved me from buying 5 books I would otherwise own. I did buy Iberia and Rome - never access them except to compare senior magi I have created. I did buy Novgorod - one day I may use. But unlikely to be central but there was no other Tribunal books even remotely relevant. Make tribunal books that will be useful. Make them about Order politics and History, new spells, new abilities and senior magi (including Arch Magi) that can influence my campaign whereever it is in Mythic Europe. The decisions made in Coeris, Durenmar and Magevillis should effect every covenant.

Why it doesn't sell - just a few problems with the only other existing major Tribunal book - Rome)
Verdi should have detailed the great competition held there in more detail - the winners of the last hundred or so years (What does a character need to do to win). The judging criteria - scandals and mysteries still unsolved. Does Verdi vis tax all House members - how does it collect it, has any great vis robberies been made. Magevillis stores all Tribunal decisions and information about virtually every mage ever to exist in the order - should it have more than one Flambeau hoplite. What Grand and local Tribunal specific decisions are there. Who specifically are traditionalists and transitionalists in House Quaesitoris and how are they lining up with order wide plots. What internal measures do Mercere have prevent bribery and corruption before the Quaestoris come hunting. Where do the vis gifts (that don't exist) to Mecere end up?

Instead some of the greatest covenants of the order were written up as border covenants fighting over a lack of local vis and back stabbing in Venice. A dungeon bash of the Archmagi's tomb but nothing on who or what an Archmage is, no significant examples of Archmages tests that I can use when a mage approaches that level. Very little I can use in a campaign not in Rome.

(Hope this is helping)

Perhaps true. But here is what is far more important: Each of the top four books, including Ordo Nobilis, is a book that a PLAYER would buy. Players are a much larger pool of potential customers than storyguides. What I think defines those books (and the fourth) is not "how the order works," but "full of cool stuff for your character."

The very nature of Tribunal books is that they are Storyguide books, not Player books. Thus, any Tribunal book has perhaps 1/4 or at best 1/2 (if you suppose that most troupes use troupe style play -- which I doubt) of the sales potential of a heavily player-oriented book, such as Faeries or The Mysteries. Plus, it's further splintered to people who are personally interested in that tribunal, or plan to play in that tribunal.

Change the tribunal book, to make it more player oriented? Well, then you have a couple problems. First, you have to cut the secrets and GM-only information. Then, you have to stuff it with cool stuff for players (like the new magic traditions found in The Dragon and the Bear or Ultima Thule). And in any case, it's still limited to people interested in that tribunal (unless it's turned into something that isn't a tribunal book at all).

Some of the things you mention, like covenant libraries, would be better served by a book on Covenants (which, like the original, might include four examples, one for each season; unlike the original, they might be from all across Mythic Europe), something of broad appeal for every saga (even more than the Bestiary, I would think). Others might be better placed in an Order of Hermes-style book or books (which we also know is a good selling type). Others that you itemize, to be blunt -- things like "Information of who the primi of all the houses have been for the last 4oo years" -- are completely inconsequential for most players of the game. There are perhaps a couple hundred people in the whole world who care, and that's not enough to make a profitable game supplement.

In fact, a lot of those things may actually be BAD for the game; they contribute to the sense of "metaplot," the alienating feeling that the game world is so heavily defined and complex that a person is not worthy of playing in it until they've spent hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hours learning its intricacies, so they can properly replicate the formal process of a tribunal proceeding following the precedents of the Grand Tribunals of the past, or what have you. People really, really into the game may enjoy reading and imagining these things; for a lot of people it's intimidating and off-putting. It's already a big perceptual problem for the game's mundane history side; people feel that they need an academic background in Medieval Studies to be qualified to play.

In the end, look at the issue this way: It's not that we want no tribunal books, or that we don't want tribunal books about the heart of the order. It's just that, in the hierarchy of Good Things for Ars Magica, there are enough books higher on the list to fill two or three solid years of releases before we should be doing more tribunal books, particularly when there are a bunch of Tribunal books (even if they are largely the periphery of the order) still in print. A Thebes tribunal book might be helpful for players in the Levant; but is it more important to Ars Magica players as a whole than a book on the Infernal? Is a Rhine tribunal book more valuable to more players than a Houses/Order of Hermes (when HoH sells out, which is likely to happen before 5th ed.)? Is it more important than a Covenants sourcebook? -- something that is a more glaring omission in the product line than any possible Tribunal book, since the covenant is the central "player character" of the whole game!

Resources are finite. We can't publish every possible sourcebook; nor could the Ars Magica fans afford to buy them. Thus, we have to choose the greater goods when we pick which are the books to produce in the future.

As a compromise though, I like the idea of providing information on the areas not detailed by tribunal books through future supplements. If the Dominion book uses a range of examples, set them in Constantinople and lets get a few details about that city. It doesn't prevent us from getting more on Constantinople when the Thebes book rolls around, but does help us set up stories in one of the great cities of the time.

Just a thought. It might keep us Tribunal hounds at bay a little longer...

I'm not sure about players buying products like Ordo Nobilis and Houses of Hermes etc. In our group noone but myself owned a copy of anything but the base rules (and then only one other) until a particular player changed an existing game to Ars Magica rules - he then purchased 12 books. Its when a player creates his own saga that the big purchases start.

That's not a viable solution, unfortunately. If we were to make a PDF, we would spend the same amount of staff time, and pay the same to writers and artists, in order to produce it. Those are larger expenses than printing, and a PDF would have far fewer copies sold to spread those expenses over.

If you're curious about the expenses of an RPG project, you can see an article of mine that just appeared on d20weekly.com (though you'd have to be a subscriber):

http://www.d20weekly.com/login/article.cgi?326

It includes an Excel spreadsheet, so you could change the various numbers yourself and see different scenarios. (Like, if a project were a PDF, so there was zero print cost, how many copies would have to sell in order to recover the other development expenses?)

Artwork/Stock Photo costs
Writer costs
Editor costs
Designer/Layout Costs
Hosting (distribution) Costs
General Admin costs
General Overheads

So you see these are the major contributor of the publication, often upto 75% of the base pre profit wholesale figure.

Its also an audience thing, people like paper over PDF.

Mind you I'll by the PDF if I only want Sections of the Book. (like Dragon and Bear).

I've posted the question below before under a different topic, but I would appreciate an answer from one of you guys involved at Atlas:

"I see there has been some discussion on the topic of tribunal books here and this something which I think is sorely missed. I can see the points made by John Nephew though.

What I suggest is a combined book for the three central western European tribunals, Provencal, Normandy and the Rhine. Maybe, if this is a success, a second book covering Transylvania, Thebes and even detailing orthodox Christianity would be a good idea?

Obviously a book like this couldn't be as detailed as "The Dragon and The Bear" or "Heirs to Merlin", but it would be a great start and should capture the interest of many GM's. I reckon most campaigns would at one time or another involve these areas. It could also be combined with a detailed map of mainland Mythic Europe (which has been requested here earlier).

What do you think?"

Regards,
Eivind from Oslo

Since many houses are geographically based, like the Tremere in Transylvania and the Ex Miscellanea in Britain, any discussion of a House would include aspects of their Tribunal strongholds.

Additionally, a House book is more likely to sell to players and SGs alike-- as well as having additional usage for Dark Ages: Mage and Mage:the Ascension players and STs.

A book of options, like the Wizard's Grimoire and the Mysteries seems more useful and exciting, and IMO, the line needs more information about the Hermetic Houses.

Having each "House Book" include 3 Houses, grouped thematically, (Tremere, Tytalus, Flambeau; Bonisagus, Criamon, Jerbiton; etc) is possibly a good idea.

~Alex

I *like* tribunal books. I think they're good for the game. The tribunal is a sensible "geographical unit" in the world of ArM, since it has a game-world meaning to the Order of Hermes.

I also think that a tribunal is a pretty good topic for a full-size sourcebook. For example, I think The Dragon and the Bear does a good job -- it covers geography, history, politics, culture, new crunchy bits, lots of examples, a ton of cool maps, a major campaign arc (Mongol invasion), etc. For other games, TD&TB could just about stand as an entire game world by itself.

I'm not really attracted to the idea of bundling a bunch of tribunals together in one book. We already have Mythic Europe and The Medieval Handbook (and future analogues when those sell out; I'm sure we'll have to do a Mythic Europe book for 5E), when it comes to surveying the broad landscape. If we're looking at 128 pages as the basic size of a sourcebook, splitting it up to give three tribunals less than 43 pages each (allowing for contents, index, etc.) is, in my view, severely shortchanging them.

So, in my perfect world, we'd be doing tribunal books with the scale and epic scope of The Dragon and the Bear.

However, given the nature of these books, and their inherently limited appeal, it does not make sense to churn them out one a month or something, or even once a quarter. In reality, I think it's appropriate to have a new tribunal book about every two years, and each book should be so cool, so inspiring, that a lot of people in existing sagas will think about moving the story to that tribunal (at least for a while), and everyone who has kind of been losing interest in ArM will find that their imagination is lit on fire and the book inspires them to want to start up a thrilling new saga in the tribunal. (Heck, it would be great if the economics were to make it possible for the books to be 200-page monsters, lavishly produced, the kind of books that become your most memorable purchase in a year.) They also need to be designed so that players as well as storyguides want them and find them useful.

There's a temptation to treat the world of Ars Magica as being some kind of encyclopedia, with a bunch of required entries, and an incomplete work until we have something written for them. I feel that this is not the way to manage the line or experience the world. This is a game that I expect will be around for decades more to come; it's not a "fire and forget" setting/game that needs a two-year schedule of releases laden with metaplot before we cancel the line or issue a new edition.

Having said that, I have to reiterate that there are books that just are higher in priority than any tribunal book. Let's be honest -- a book on the Dominion and a book on the Infernal should both be done before any new tribunal book, whether that book is one tribunal or a bunch of tribunals. There are similar priorities that will come into play in the schedule of support after 5th edition is released, and those priorities just mean that tribunal books are going to have to wait a while. (E.g., Houses of Hermes will be running out, probably before 5E is released, and will need a replacement book.)

In the past (and "the past" really means "everything up until 5th edition," since all the releases between now and 5th edition are already set), the line's direction has been driven primarily by what was proposed to us by freelancers, and what among the projects tentatively OK'd actually proceeded to finished, publishable manuscripts. In the future, we're going to be using an overall strategy to determine what to publish for the line. (The same strategy that will lead us to delay any new tribunal books is likely to dictate that we focus the first post-5E tribunal books on the heart of the order rather than its periphery.)

I haven't seen this level of discussion or openness about a game line from its publishers in a long time, if at all.

Just one thing though. It is a small, minor point. I only bring it up as I've been looking forward to it since it was announced. Please, Sanctuary of Ice will come out, won't it?

Mark

The next Ars Magica title in the queue (after Land of Fire and Ice, which I hope will go to press within the next week) is The Black Monks of Glastonbury (the Coriolis ArM/D20 sourcebook written by David Chart). I expect to finalize the details and announce it officially this coming week. Our plan is to ship it to distributors in May, and it should be an 80-page softcover (perfect bound) book.

If I (or some other gamer) some day would bother to sit down doing the large amount of research required (I'm currently studying History) and write a sourcebook covering the Provencal Tribunal, would you be interested in having a look at it?

I'm aware of the existing supplements set in the area (Covenants (2nd ed. Ars), A Midsummer Nights Dream (3rd) and Mistridge (3rd)) and would certainly try to stay true to what's already written.

I think that we'll be adjusting our method of getting writers for Ars Magica, away from the "people propose things they want to do" and toward the "we assign topics that need to be done to proven writers who have a track record with us." (People will get such a track record by doing things like submitting to open call books, like Living Legends, or even open calls in other product lines, like the En Route 2 book for Penumbra.)

Over the years a lot of books that would have been very good to do have not been done because someone proposed doing them, and then never delivered -- and in the meantime we turned away others, and didn't solicit other writers, because we knew someone was working on it.

Maybe I will send David something anyway some day, but definitely not before I have something near-finished worth showing!

I still think there is a real need for a supplement covering covenants, intrigue and politics of the order in the core areas of Europe and the Order of Hermes.

A new better book on the order itself could help very much though, so this should in my opinion be your top priority!

~Alex

It would be really good to get a coordinated and balanced set of rules for faerie characters if nothing else.

I'd like to see the rules on generating faerie characters (especially magi) and faerie magic overhauled and rationalised. I think I would prefer this before a Rhine tribunal book after all.

Mark

~Alex

Firstly, it was a pain in the rump to go looking through three books only to find that they have their own interpretations of faerie magic/blood. I think a dedicated sourcebook whether for this edition or the next will help to colate and clarify the rules.

The second reason is that I consider the current rules for faerie magic clumsy and overpowered. The faerie magic ability is essentially an affinity with all art combinations. Add in the muto and imaginem bonues (dropping magnitudes in spell levels).

That "magnitude" rule just doesn't fit with the other mechanics employed by the game. I'd rather this was represented through free affinities for these arts.

I think the line needs a new faeries book as I find the exisiting one almost unusable; poor layout, unclear rules and I just plain don't like the content. It is such a large topic and I want more detail and less "travels with the troubadour".

Mark

I only ask as Ars4 has had such a huge level of playtesting and development that it seems sensible to pick up those elements that have been developed on the perifery and incorporate them in the core rules.

Mark

~Alex
pax