Dievs

ED

your questions are good ones, since the answers can show you what Ars Magica is about.

No, you do need neither cookie cutter priests (we prayed, so your magic does not work any more ....) nor reduced magic to make the world of Ars Magica work.

Contrary to the situation of Trentus in 1186, the magi in your campaign appear to be well known to and well hated by all the peasants, priests and warriors advancing against their covenant.

Point out to your players, that these people will have informed half the countryside - looking for allies, letting off steam, calling on the king's justice - before advancing against the covenant.

If there is anything dubious in the defeat of this expedition, the whole country will suspect the magi. If the expedition disappears without a trace, if ample burn marks appear near the spot where they were seen last, if all survivors of the expedition have lost their mind, it will cause the remaining people in the area to blame the magi. Leaving no survivors will - given the customs of warfare in the middle ages - make sure that the inhabitants of the region will suspect at least unchristian and unlawful methods of warfare.

If the magi are blamed of magic or other blatantly unchristian behavior, at least the local bishop will investigate. If the magi are known as learned, it is likely that the bishop can also assume jurisdiction over them, because learning was usually equated with clergy. This means the bishop will either send a visitator, or come in person to their covenant to look at their way of life. Killing the bishop or his envoy is a very bad idea: the Albigensian crusade started that way. Tricking or charming him is certainly difficult.

But if there is just the shadow of a possibility, that your aggressive young PC magi will somehow give the existence of the Order away to the investigating bishop, even before the bishop moves the wiser and elder members of the Order of Hermes could move, and by clout or force remove the PC magi from the area - securing their Vis sources and appropriating their Aura in the process.

In the end these poor underpowered cottagers and warriors will be quite a problem to an unwise and cocky covenant.

Yours,

Berengar

Every covenant needs 'common people'. They are needed to work the land, make the food, clothes, maintain the buildings, generaly every meanial task magi don't want to be bothered with.
And you'll be surprised to learn how many farmers you need to support a non farmer.
There is a thread about this on the ArsM forum on Gaming Outpost.

If your pc's kill off local villagers, let them starve when every farming family run for their lives, away from these murdering maniacs. Or let them work 3 seasons of every year just to keep starvation and cold from their doorstep.

The local peasents are the property of their local lord (or lady). The Lord could be anything from a minor Baron to the King himself! If he is a minor lord he can still turn to his lord in the feudal hierachy and raise an army.

If your covenant deserves to be attacked by enraged peasents chances are it deserves to be attacked by an enraged lord. Should the Magi have robbed or killed any of the peasents then the local lord can be expected to demand recompense.

Yes you can kill 100 mundanes and not be punished by the order. However I think the precedent was for war time, you can not just destroy a village in the middle of peace time and get away with it. People will notice.

Okay, so your covenant can kill 100 or so peasents. So who grows your food? How do your grogs feel about mass murder? Remember that the grogs of the covenant may well be married or related to the local villagers.

I sincerely doubt that your Covenant can survive being besieged by an army several thousand strong.

Remember reputations, should your Magi be using magic to oppress the peasents news of it will spread. The following groups are likely to intervene.
1: The local lord (already mentioned).
2: Local hedge wizards.
3: The Church.
4: The Richest and most powerful pan-european banking and fighting organisation, the Knights Templar.
5: Moral hermetics, I am sure they exist, remember you dont really have to justify your wizard wars, or even wizard marches!

Basically if you just think about things realistically there are many ways to beat the players.

I hope to setting a new saga in which such issues are paramount.

(I hope to see the players faces when their characters are shunned for not attending church!)

Social interaction should be a key issue.

Heck, you could even have the major characters survive(and working their butts off to regain independance from the senior magi who now have _zero_ trust of their descretion).

-Albert

If the covenant was reckless in its relations with the local population, I would expect charges to be brought against the covenant. The magi's heads delivered to the king should re-establish the Order's neutrality in mundane affairs.

Regards

- David W

How can mundanes harm the Order ?
If one covenant can massacre an assault, then what do other covenants have to fear ? That they might be assaulted with some puny cannon-fodder that they can defeat in 5 minutes ?

Suppose that the mundanes are angered at the order, what are they going to do ? An archimage or two, with some apprentices, assisted by a couple of bribed or mind-controlled barons could probably win against the army of France, or repel a crusade - if the crusade is able to find them. Mundanes cannot detect the mages, they can infiltrate their command ranks, and crush the will of any army by slaying their leaders before the fight, clouding the minds of officers and spreading ill omens or illusions showing 'divine disapproval' to terrorize the common soldiers.

The armies of the time are not particularly large, and would retreat and disperse if a small part of them was killed - especially if they were killed in a horribly spectacular way.

Any powerful leaders that are not affected by magic have someone who wants to take their place - and would murder him for that place and some magical bauble..

If other magi get involved then it is a different question, but anyway, then it is mage-to-mage conflict, but we are speaking about mundanes here.

The entire nobility could be replaced easily (Like at the 13th century England french invaders replaced english/danish nobility).
So the order could quite easily get an official position at the courts, much more influential than the clergy or many others.

About food and resources - just as the local lord gathers taxes because of his army, the openly powerful covenant would receive all that they need in taxes from the local area. They can easily take all the functions of the feodal lord - they protect the people from outsiders, govern them, improve the land and fields, and in return get a part of the peasant's produce...

So, is there answer to the original question - is there a reason for a covenant to consider that, in some ways, the local baron is powerful and should be feared ?

Otherwise, he simply must give the covenant whatever they need or be replaced by some more promising candidate...

What can a local noble threaten them ?
Intervention of the king ? The king could be influenced by the order, or the message might just 'disappear' on the long way to king through many other people.
Assault by the local people ? If they know about the magi, they would rather depose of that noble - they want to live happily, don't they - and the help of the magi can be great, as can be their wrath
Wrath of the church ? There are a lot of not-so-pious officials in the church who would be willing to compromise - and it would be a sure bet that they would advance, and non-compromising ones would have all kinds of strange 'accidents' occuring to them...

Take a like France or England - there would be a handful of the really influential people - king, larger nobles, bishops - that can effectively rule the place - and there are much more magi than that. And if some of the magi want power - then they can control this handful of people and rule the country through them.
Think Machiavelli - but with all the added options of manipulation that magic allows. Magocracy is inevitable.

The position that is in the books is that any such open displays of magical powers would make the mundanes crush the order.

But can they ?
How can all the mundanes in the world crush a thousand magi ?
In history, a thousand people control whole Europe - most of them just because of their parents.
If we take a thousand superhumans - then they would take many, if not most of those positions of power.

And if we take the small Spring covenant in question - then it can subdue or control or replace the local leaders and there is nothing they can do. Or can they ?

That is the problem.

So the solution that I am seeking is either
1) a role of magi in society that reflect their abilities (and the ambitions to match them)
That means either total magocracy (but that makes for a lousy game), or Machiavellian manipulations from shadows, where all the mundanes are just pawns in the Order's political games, and every magi knows that mundanes are just pawns, and any noble or priest that wants to fight 'evil witches' is eliminated by his higher-ups as soon as he isn't needed.. (what I have come to now)

or
2) An explanation in terms of game mechanics - how can a local lord defeat a covenant, even using all of his resources (My original question).

The total resources of the local lord is 1 knight (himself), a dozen trained armsmen, and local clergy and peasants (who do not want to risk their lives probably).

As far as I can see, even a lord one 'level' higher - a dozen knights and more than a hundred armsmen - a significant army for that time - cannot defeat a decent covenant.

If it can, then please show me how.

Most magi wish to quietly study and advance their magical interests. The current situation where the Church and nobility largely ignore the Order and the Order doesn't cause them trouble, serves the Order well.

Regardless of the Order's capacity to defend itself, most magi do not wish to fight such battles. The majority of magi simply do not wish to be in conflict with mundane authorites and in particular become mundane authorities.

There is the 'slippery slope' concern. Where would such a conflict bring the Order? What would be the ultimate result if the policy of non-interferance was ignored? Many magi would be horrified at the idea of magi replacing/entering the nobility. This is not where they want the Order to travel.

>>>An archimage or two, with some apprentices, assisted by a couple of bribed or mind-controlled barons could probably win against the army of France, or repel a crusade - if the crusade is able to find them.<<<

How can anyone be sure that God would not thwart them? How can anyone be sure that conservative and Christian factions of magi would not thwart them? How can anyone be sure that their mundane servants would not murder them while they slept in an act of sudden piety or loyality to king?

If the Pope decided forbid Christians from working for magi, many covenants would find themselves without staff. Now you might propose threats, mind-control etc etc. You might propose magi protecting themselves 24/7 from a mundane knife in the back etc etc. But most magi will not want to live like this.

Your vision of the Order and the general attitudes of magi may be very different. But an Order wishing to preserve the Status Quo is not a bizarre and untenable concept.

Regards

- David W

OK. So the order as an organisation wants every mage to hide magic from mundanes, and actively enforces it.
And while magi can win battles against mortals, it has been decided, that the 'war' will be won by losing/escaping from the battles and hiding.

And if the players think that magi should openly govern all mundanes, then they have the 0.001% chance of the Grand Tribunal agreeing on this, or they can start trying, and then Quaesitors and Hoplites would 'escort' them away, and assist the locals in burning the covenant ?

This also threatens the status quo. Firstly, Hermetic magic is not the only 'game in town'. There are plenty of mystics and holy-men in Mythic Europe capable of blowing a magus's cover. If the nobility started to suspect magi were usurping their authority, there would be a strong reaction.

Also the kind of odd-ball who wants to rule mundanes would likely conflict with other odd-ball magi trying to do the same thing. Mundanes then become the football between them, leading to mundane chaos. Sane magi think mundane society is bad enough as it is, without magi stirring them up.

>>>OK. So the order as an organisation wants every mage to hide magic from mundanes, and actively enforces it.<<<

I am not saying that. The Order needs to maintain a belief in their neutrality and disinterest in mundane affairs. Secret magic is not required.

>>>And while magi can win battles against mortals, it has been decided, that the 'war' will be won by losing/escaping from the battles and hiding.<<<

Neutrality does not require pacifism. Magi can defend their covenant from attack. But you can be sure the local quaesitors will be very interested in the background behind the attack. If required, the diplomatic effort to calm the fears of local nobles and churchmen will have to be paid for.

Basically if the magi were reasonable and proportionate, they will not face severe Hermetic penalty. If they were unreasonable and disproportionate they will be in trouble.

Regards

- David W

But in this discussion I have found a desire to try a campaign based on an order that is willing to ignore involvement with mortal affairs, but requires to hide the supernatural nature of this involvement. Thus, Machiavellian politic tricks will be the base of the game. And maybe involve WhiteWolfs vampires as other 'shadow rulers'.
The campaign would consist of various influential people(mundanes/magi/vampires) using everybody as pawns for their goals, Illuminati style. The ultimate goal, of course, would be total world domination, but huge wealth and eliminating of anyone you dislike also is acceptable.
The historical medieval setting is good for these court intrigues, and some supernatural powers to assist would spice everything up just the right way.

I disagree very strongly.
Though there are biblical injunctions against magic this does not prevent the huge bulk of peasent charms and superstition employed by the Christian peasantry. Even the Popes made use of astrology and divination.

In any saga I ran a Popes decree, would most certainly make 99% of all Covenfolk leave. Covenfolk will almost always be Christians, no doubt there will be heretics and sinners amongst them but they would draw the line at disobeying the Pope.

Even a decree by a illiterate village priest would have a similar effect.

Only on the edge of Europe would I lessen the sense of Christian Hegenomy.

I have no problem with the Order exerting a vast degree of secret power over mundane affairs. Just so long as they do not control everything.

The edict against 'interference with mundanes' has always meant to me. Don't kick the beehive. If a Magus can get at the honey without getting him and his mates stung then so be it.

Magi have no choice but to live as part of society on some level. They invariably have to eat and pay taxes. Obviously they can use some magic to make life easier.

If you dont get caught you can get away with everything, and that is the only true law of the Order!

I was considering 'removing' the prohibition against Magi being court wizards. Done properly its a great idea! Wealth, security and a ready chance to manipulate politics.

I am all for Hermetic manipulation but I would consider the following limits.

1: I would rule that Kings cannot just be slapped with mentem. They have protection, the divine right of Kings gives them powerful protection.

2: Many churchmen will also be partially or totally immune.

As for including white-wolf style vampires. As much as I love that game they dont fit into the Ars paradignm as I view it.

//1) a role of magi in society that reflect their abilities (and the ambitions to match them)
That means either total magocracy (but that makes for a lousy game), or Machiavellian manipulations from shadows, where all the mundanes are just pawns in the Order's political games, ...//

The published setting of Ars Magica basically is consistent (give or take a few rules glitches treated in other places already), and in it the magi already fulfill a role reflecting their magical and political capabilities.

The first thing to understand here is, of course, who runs the Order of Hermes. This is not the PCs, but some over hundred years old and verry powerful magi. Would they care to openly or covertly lord it over all mundanes? No way.

At first - perhaps until 1000 or 1050 AD - it was not worth the hassle to them. As long as the mundanes did not encroach upon their interests, which were and are in arcana, not in mundane politics, they were of little concern. The provision in the Code of Hermes 'Nor will I interfer with the affairs of mundanes and thereby bring ruin on my sodales.' was there to avoid instrumentalization of mundanes in conflicts between magi.

When in the end the mundanes became trouble even without meddling magi, it was too late.
Just *trying* to determine how to rule the mundanes would now break up the Order - and the old magi know that well.

Had Tremere prevailed in AD 848, things might now be different. But removing the above restriction of the Code without a dominating House and purpose in the Order would throw not only the mundane world, but first and foremost the Order into a turmoil it would not survive. This is the reason, why the basic Code of Hermes was never changed since the founders approved it.

Most of this has nothing to do with your initial post, of course, since even with House Tremere governing the world your PC magi would not be part of the decision makers, but of the Hermetic step-and-fetch-its at best. They would be far more restricted in their actions than with the noninterfering Order as is, and any meddling of theirs far more harshly punished. 50 or so Tremere magi having to rule the known world directly or indirectly after all cannot be lenient with wanna-bes who cannot even keep a village and a knight calm without killing them.

//And if the players think that magi should openly govern all mundanes, then they have the 0.001% chance of the Grand Tribunal agreeing on this, or they can start trying, and then Quaesitors and Hoplites would 'escort' them away, and assist the locals in burning the covenant ?//
The storyguide and players are of course free to think and rule as they wish.
But if in the setting as is PC magi 5 - or 20 - years out of apprenticeship think they should change the Code of Hermes, they will find that on the Grand Tribunal held every 33 years every Tribunal can propose only three issues for debate and voting - and their ideas will 100% sure not be among them.
If they insist on blatantly breaking the Code and endangering the Order of Hermes instead, the Hoplites will - likely without the locals even knowing - remove the PC magi for good. And perhaps give the covenant site and Vis resources to more reasonable (or malleable) youngsters instead.

That sounds like an interesting idea for a covenant indeed: being allowed to settle a site with a good Aura and some Vis on the condition to make up with the mundanes, who were estranged by a previous covenant. While some of that covenant's members are lurking in the background, waiting for a chance to pounce ...

Yours,

Berengar

Turns out King James wanted explicit Biblical permission to persecute witches. So he had it added.

-Albert

Well, now I can see the elders of the Order trying not to shake the boat, so to speak. If that provision was suddenly cancelled, then many quarrels between magi could be solved with roaming armies and destroyed covenants, not a (relatively) quiet Wizard War - and such bickering would probably split the Order into many smaller and weaker rival factions.

So I stand corrected.

I understand that 'poisoner' and 'witch' are both valid translations of the original Hebrew word.

Iirc it was ruled early on in the Church that Christians were not bound to all the OT laws. God gave these laws specifically to the Israelites, Christians needed to decide which would apply to them too. The best example are the food laws.

Witch-burning is outside the canon period. In the 13th century the Church regards magic (argue over definition) as sinful, but so are lots of things. They have no particular focus on it as a sin (as of 1220).

Regards

- David W

I seem to remember from an old course that there is a greek word with connatations with both magic and poisening. So perhaps those who translated from Greek and hebrew cared not to elaborate on the poisen aspect!

Pharmakon/pharmakeus, perhaps?

"Suffer not a pharmacist to live!" Hmm, my mother in law is a pharmacist...but Michelle likes her, so we'll have to keep her around. ;-)

Interesting discussion, in any case. Here's my noncanonical reaction.

I think, to me, the fundamental question is one of motivation. So you tell magi, "You have the power to rule the mundane world!" I think for the typical magus, you may as well say, "O Mighty Wizard, YOU have the power to be KING OF FRUIT FLIES and OVERLORD OF COUNTLESS MEANINGLESS AND DISTRACTING MUNDANE MATTERS! With your powerful magics, you could become the MOST POWERFUL MIDDLE MANAGER IN THE MIDDLE AGES! You have the ability to PULL THE WINGS OFF FLIES and SUBJUGATE HOUSE PETS!" Woo hoo. If I were a wizard, I'd trade all the mundane kingdoms of Mythic Europe for a way to break the Hermetic Limits....THAT's the kind of thing that motivates a magus (at least any one that has matured beyond the point of being excited by pulling the wings off flies). Having to deal with the mundane world is a distraction from the REAL business of being a wizard.

The don't-meddle-with-mundanes is an important rule of thumb, something that helps keep the immature out of trouble. It's also something that steers a lot of the more mature away from trouble, since using magic to manipulate the mundanes is sure likely to get you messed up in all kinds of diabolical temptations. And I suspect that the more inclined to worry about the mundane world that a wizard is, the less likely they are to survive and turn into a powerful centenarian magus (if only because they'll run afoul of other meddling young wizards who think it's cool to do that sort of thing).