Or do you think there is no place for magus-level hedge-magicians in Mythic Europe, even as a rarity?

Do you hate non-Hermetics? If so why?

Regards

- David W

I love non-Hermetics though, as they give me a chance as SG to introduce some zany wackiness to the game, or some bizarre mind-bending magical paradigms.

~Alex
pax

In a second saga, one of the players liked the sound of the shaman so much he chose an ex misc shaman for his magus slot.

I must confess that I still like the metaphysics of the magic realm that HP:Shamans outlined (sans the WW add-ons). Even though it has little in common with period metaphysics, it was neat, readily understandable and workable; a feature I am concerned a period 'take' on metaphysics might not be.

Imo it's a pity this class wasn't put in Hedge Magic and made properly 4th Ed (rather than in tDatB). I hope the 5th Ed HM book is a nice 128 page volume without 50% of the wordcount as fiction.

Hopefully it can include revised versions of gruagachan, trollsynir, sahir et al.

Regards

- David W

And I also look forward to 5th edition drawing all (most) of these non-hermetic traditions together in one rationalised volume. This way, we can have a standard set of virtues and flaws used in a standard way instead of references to be careful about confusing "potency" in one book with "potency" in another.

It seems to me that the 5th edition will more likely be a huge editorial task rather than a writing task.

Regards

- David W

There are a number of other instances where the same virtues are used in different volumes with slight contextual differences.

Regardless, Faeries and all other works that claim to offer insight into the game rules governing the fae are the absolute worst offenders. How many Faerie Blood versions do we need/want?

Although LotN is labled 4th Ed, it was published by WotC and is actually 3rd. Trollsynir are a sibling tradition to the Scottish Gruagachan. So although we did restrict the scope of Potency in LoFaI, it is meant to be exactly the same ability. Although it's been restricted, it is now available to other Hedge Wizards.

Potency is Potency, the difference is between 3rd and 4th Ed. The same goes for Curse, Gift etc. In fact you could easily update Gruagachan to 4th Ed using the LoFaI rules.

>>>There are a number of other instances where the same virtues are used in different volumes with slight contextual differences.<<<

The only virtue I can think of where this applies is the Shapeshift Exceptional Talent. In UT Vitkir have a +3 Virtue called Shapeshift. However, this was a far more restrictive talent than the LotN original and so should have been given another name.

Originally we had written-up a simplified version of the Viktir magician for LoFaI anyway. Within this version we gave them a virtue we called Lesser Shapeshift, which was basically the same as UT. Unfortunitely it had to be cut.

Regards

- David W

I also understand that while referencing the rules in HM may be okay as the book is still available in one form or another, but LoTN is probably another case altogether. Describing Potency again was probably needed.

My comment still stands about the 5th edition needing to be a huge editing and codification job. If there are to be little variations on skills and virtues depending on who uses them, perhaps we need to work out whether those differences are necessary. If they are, I'd like to see them broken out into well defined distinct abilities. That way, where a difference is required because of local flavour, we get the chance to play up on that in the ability usage and description.

Actually my 'Magus-Slot' is occupied by a 'Magus Naturalis', and up to now, it is quite some fun to play him. Of course natural magicians are those most compatible to the 'typical' style of hermetic magi, so it didn't take me very long to join the order, and in many ways I assume hermetics would consider this style of magic comparible to a highly enigmatic Criamon or ferry-magic-infested Merinita: "We have an idea of what he does, but we can't really work together."
In our covenant his sodales are sometimes buffeled by the power of his magic (14th magnitude rituals are possible with a starting character (+enough vis, a good aura and much time); via transformation vis-shortage is hardly heard of) but at least in the open they still consider his approach as inferior to hermetic magic due to its drawbacks (lack of fast magic, restrictions concerning the construction of artifacts, no familiar).
I decided to construct this really strong hedge magician, because up to that point we have had various ex Miscs in our troupe who all had been classical hermetics - more specialized than possible with other house templates. Up to now it works. Being a scholar interested in magic Alexios will soon try to learn hermetic magic, at least the theory, if possible the real stuff, and if the campaign is to run really long, maybe he will try to blend both systems in his second century.
All in all, I'd say a natural magician should get the magus-slot, at least in campaigns which start with young wizards. Probably they are even a bit stronger than their hermetic counterparts in the beginning, but the later can learn faster. Of course much depends on the style of construction: As I mentioned, Alexios is more or less optimized in terms of magical power. The same is possibly true for the baal shem and perhaps some classes from the various tribunal books that I didn't read very thoroughly.
The other character classes from HM (Wise Men, Spirit Masters and Ascetics - and also the Necromancer from 'Kabballah') seem to be much weaker/ more restricted in their powers. Some other classes don't seem to be compatible with the social structure and rules of the Order of Hermes, especially the kabbalists. For these reasons I would use most other hedge magicians only as companions or NPCs.

Som time to get beack into my lab and transdorm a diamond
Vale,

Lars G. Gerlach (aka Alexios es Miscellanea)

P.S.: I apologize for the mistakes I Probably made, but for me English is still a foreign language, and I didn't have a dictionary at hand to controll my spelling.

Glad to hear it.

>>>In our covenant his sodales are sometimes buffeled by the power of his magic (14th magnitude rituals are possible with a starting character (+enough vis, a good aura and much time);<<<

This trick with is often seen as streaching the spirit of the rules. However, compare this with a starting magus given vis, time, a good aura and a spell text...

Sta: +3
Tech: +4
Form: +4
Aura: +4
Vis Boost: +60 [(Int+Art+MT)x5] (iirc)
Fatigue Levels: +20
Stress Die: +6

Total: 101!

>>>All in all, I'd say a natural magician should get the magus-slot, at least in campaigns which start with young wizards. <<<

If the vis-boosting exploit is fixed they are just mythic companions.

Your English is perfectly understandable by the way.

Best Regards

- David W

Sta: +3
Tech: +4
Form: +4
Aura: +4
Vis Boost: +60 [(Int+Art+MT)x5] (iirc)
Fatigue Levels: +20
Stress Die: +6

Total: 101!//

I fear you do not recall this correctly. Use of Vis in this case is limited by the highest applicable Art score of this magus to 4 pawns (cf. ArM4 p.77).

So casting from a somehow found powerful spell text (say level 60) would be:

Sta: +3
Tech: +4
Form: +4
Aura: +4
Vis Boost: +20 (4 Pawns of Vis)
Fatigue Levels: +20
Stress Die: +6

Total: 61 (pheww - barely made it).

If the player of the magus rolled 4 or less on her stress die, her magus would fall unconscious, his spell would fail and she would have to check for a botch of his rolling at least 10 botch dice, because botch dice - also for Vis - are doubled if casting from text (cf. ArM4 p. 78).

Kind regards,

Berengar

Seven in all Techs, 1 or 2 in all Forms. Still equal or greater ability in all combos.

Sta: +3
Tech: +7
Form: +1
Aura: +4
Vis Boost: +35 (7 Pawns of Vis)
Fatigue Levels: +20
Stress Die: +6

Total: 76 (easy)

Regards

- David W

If a magus tries this more often than once or twice, he is probably dead or severely damaged.
If casting a 15th magnitude spell from text this way, on every 0, 2, 3, 4 or 1 followed by 2 - that is in 41% of all cases - that magus will fall unconscious on this stunt, then his player will roll 16 botch dice!

Kind regards,

Berengar

How about potions? You do the math if you like.

Regards

- David W

Even if both your magus and Lars' natural magician can thus obtain a 14th magnitude effect, there is still a huge difference between them:

The natural magician PC can choose his 14th magnitude effects quite freely, depending only on available materials usable as spell foci or to gain Form and Effect bonuses, while your example magus must first obtain the precise 14th magnitude spell text needed, hence depends completely on the SG's generosity/foolishness.

I am not really sure just what you want to prove.

Anyway, maintaining that a just built hermetic magus character can rival a just purpose built natural magician character in Spellcrafting (one of the natural magicians two specialties - the other being Transformation) appears an untenable position to me.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Casting from text is generally accepted in sagas, yet it allows young magi to generate very high magnetude effects.

Regards

- David W

//Casting from text is generally accepted in sagas ...//
That's for sure.

//, , yet it allows young magi to generate very high magnetude effects.//
Only if the SG concurs. I know exactly, how many 11th or higher magnitude spell texts were found by PCs in my campaigns during the last decade or two: zero. If there had been some, they would clearly have been plot devices, not means to build a character concept around. I don't see that other campaigns distribute lots of 14th magnitude texts either.

Kind regards,

Berengar

The point is, what is the maximum effect-level a starting PC can possibly achieve. As a paper exercise it still shows magi win.

>>>Only if the SG concurs.<<<

A SG must allow a NM to vis boost his Spellcrafting roll. Do you think starting NM casting 16th mag effects was an intended capacity by the authors?

But who cares about the mistakes of ArM4 at this point. Not I...

Regards

- David W

//Do you think starting NM casting 16th mag effects was an intended capacity by the authors?//
Well, one might think about a beginning natural magician also achieving 16th magnitude effects - though that was not the issue so far.
Since Aaron Link and John Snead gave a limit for the use of Vis in Spellcrafting by natural magicians, namely their Int+Alchemy+Philosophiae, we should assume that they intended the outcome. (As Lars already pointed out, this skill-based limit is not as easy to raise as the Arts-based limit of magi, turning the natural magician more into a generalist while he develops.)

I reckon that the integration of hedge magic into the system will improve with 5th edition, and the intended balance between mythic companions and magi more clearly outlined there.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Some of those were 'invited' in the order and one of the druids still lives in our convenent as an apprentice (relearning magic the right way. The fact that not all magi are hermetic has made the game quite interesting for new hermetic magi who get to have the upper hand with our great parma :P

I have been playing a necromancer as a companion and have not been identified as of yey as been powerfull enough to be 'invited' in the order.

Natural magicians seem to be stronger and would probably fit in the magi slot but would not fit well since they are not team players with hermetic magi. In fact I don't really like natural magi. They just have too much power for something with no real organisation, history and support. But this is my point of view...

Edited 6/10/2004 6:40 pm ET by WilliamEx

Interesting.

Why would that be? Given that
* with Transformations natural magicians have a capability which synergizes (too?) extraordinary well with Hermetic magic,
* with Spellcrafting another which - because taking time and resources - nearly forces them to coordinate their actions,
* while they always have to rely on others for quick reactions to unforeseen threats?

Kind regards,

Berengar

Why would that be? Given that
* with Transformations natural magicians have a capability which synergizes (too?) extraordinary well with Hermetic magic,
* with Spellcrafting another which - because taking time and resources - nearly forces them to coordinate their actions,
* while they always have to rely on others for quick reactions to unforeseen threats?

>> Natural magiciens don't work magic the same way as Hermetic magi do and are powerfull hense they can't be allowed to live on the same territory as per the code's join or die policy. Many in the order would not think twice and offer the die policy and then ask to join.

Having natural magi in mythic europe means that another order is growing under the order of hermes without it seeing it which does not fit.

Shamans are less powerfull in many points and had have been hunted down.

//* while they always have to rely on others for quick reactions to unforeseen threats?

And that is the reason I see them as something easy to wipe out for the order. On midle age flambeau could probable do it by himself.

Hegde Wizardry on p.33 has a rule specifying when a non-hermetic wizard is considered eligible to join the Order of Hermes. From that rule most natural magicians are not powerful enough to be considered.

The 'join or die' policy, while followed when the Order was founded, did not make it into the Code of Hermes, not even into the Peripheral Code, so magi are not bound by it.
A weak covenant should indeed think twice before before embarking on punitive expeditions against non-hermetics: their Sodales are not obliged to rescue them, and might well leave them to their fate at the hands of their newly made enemies.
With respect to non-hermetic traditions, many policies have over time been applied by the Order and its Tribunals: some traditions were ignored, some assimilated, some destroyed, and at least one - the Kabbalists - formally recognized.

//Having natural magi in mythic europe means that another order is growing ...//

That might indeed be the initial perspective of many magi. The Order of Hermes is quick to see other competing orders, where actually there are not even the most basic and loose structures for decision making.
But since natural magicians are probably the least secretive, most open minded, bookish and academical of all hedge magicians, they should have the easiest time to counter such suspicions of hermetics, and establish areas of mutual interest with them.

Kind regards,

Berengar

The "Join or Die" provision was made at a properly constituted Tribunal, and therefore, like all other peripheral code rulings, is binding on Hermetic mages through the provision "I will abide by the decisions made by fair vote at tribunal."

~Alex

At which? And how was it worded?

Even in detailed 2nd edition OoH there is no mention of the Order ever formalizing such a provision (see OoH p.33 and HoH p.136 for the account on the fights during the founding of the Order.)
And though we are given a lot of Tribunal decisions from 767 AD onwards in OoH and WG, "join or die" just doesn't appear.

Instead, we have OoH p.33: "Hermetic magi still fight those outside the Order when there is need, but the days of actively hunting outsiders are long past. ...". HoH p.136 is even more explicit on this subject.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Even if every magi is not bound to do it some will and that will kill any relation with non-hermetic magi. A youg flambeau might not think twice about killing or not the offending magic user and taking all that his worth for his own.

Then comes the revenge and so on. Unless the non-hermetics as protected by an official law they are prey's...

>>some traditions were ignored, some assimilated, some destroyed, and at least one - the Kabbalists - formally recognized. <<

Only after years of war with the Order. The Order admitted they were worthy opponents with there Golems ! But we still tried to wipe them out since they would not join !

Magi openly going on killing sprees against non-hermetics will heavily tax the relations of the Order of Hermes with these non-hermetics, of course - and also with their friends and supporters. So, while individual, non-aligned hedge magicians are still very vulnerable to power play by the Order, traditions well integrated into medieval society - like the natural magicians - are not. The Order might even intervene against those attacking them on a whim, or leave these attackers out to dry when the non-hermetics strike back. The relevant part of the Code of Hermes being "meddling with mundanes".

A simple example:
A Flambeau magus identified as the killer of a natural magician teaching at a university will at least have made enemies within the university and within the local church hierarchy. He will also be wanted for murder and - provided the magic he used was flashy enough - for sorcery by the city authorities, and by the bishop's inquisition. If others can identify him as a member of the Order of Hermes, this would not only threaten to kill the relations of some natural magicians and the Order, but of the Order with the university, the city and the bishop at least. If the matter escalates - as is quite likely while the Flambeau remains around - even the relations of the Order to a kingdom or to *the* church might be compromised. Consequence: the Order intervenes by removing and chastising the offending Flambeau, and letting remaining natural magicians know that it did so. Case closed, relations barely saved.

Of course the Tribunal is likely to make a memorable example of the punishment of this idiot Flambeau, if needed to prevent further killing sprees in the region.

//at least one - the Kabbalists - formally recognized. ..
Only after years of war with the Order.//
The Kabbalists could mount a magical defense against the Flambeaus. But the social defense of respected cunning folk, natural magicians and ascetics can be as puissant. Think about it.

Kind regards,

Berengar
(Three times edited to get those weird brackets right! They look different in the preview than in the actual post!)

Edited 6/17/2004 3:15 am ET by Berengar

There aren't any major magical traditions in Europe left -- only the Order, and a few minor practitioners with no coherence or organisation at all (Volkvy and Icelandic mages notwithstanding [and obviously not including the Middle East]).

~Alex

what about Natural Magicians? Many of them are members of the clergy, and it seems likely that they will rise to power within the church hierarchy. Then any attempt to enforce a Joinr Or Die against them, hits the "Don't Annoy The Church" prohibition. (And yes, it does seem likely that assasinating a church politico-cum-alchemist is likely to get up the backs of a number of other clergy!)

IOS we have a well-connected NM residing at a nearby monastery, studying with the consent of the Abbot. There is nothing that our magi can do to force him into the Order of Hermes - indeed, visiting Q's have acknowledge this, and merely set our magi the task of negotiating and explaining the benefits... "Please Join (or we'll die)"???

//There aren't any major magical traditions in Europe left -- only the Order, and a few minor practitioners with no coherence or organisation at all (Volkvy and Icelandic mages notwithstanding... //
there are of course also the Kabbalists and the Gruagachan with Brude Deathless.
The Order will likely never accept these or any other groups under the title 'major magical tradition' - I leave it to you to sort out hybris, politics and truth in this matter.

//This effectively left the cunning folk, natural magicians and spirit masters, none of whom are powerful or educated enough to be considered proper mages worthy of membership.//
Sounds quite Tytalus to me ... but will at least be well received on many Tribunals. ;-)
Of course even cunning-folk can become pretty formidable, as Wid from our Post Coch of the covenant project clearly shows. And certainly many hedge wizards become over time powerful enough to merit membership in the Order, as determined by Hedge Magic p.33 box "Joining the Order of Hermes".
As for the education: there a developed natural magician will best many hermetics, as his power is linked directly to his learning in Alchemy and Philosophiae.

Whether any of these traditions really poses a threat to the Order of Hermes in central and western Europe is quite a different issue. I at least don't think so. A lot does depend on their organizations here, though, and we are left a little in the dark about these by published material.

I see cunning-folk, wise-persons, Baal-Shem and such organized in informal regional fellowships and godfatherships which assure that suitable persons can be apprenticed to a teacher, that mutual assistance in major matters can be organized and that the common people get the traditional help they expect. Otherwise these fellowships strive to be overlooked by church, nobility and the Order, and will likely not challenge medieval society or the Order unless severely provoked.

Natural magicians IMO are - because learned - nearly all clergy (which might change just a little in late 13th century Italy with the founding of guilds like the Medici e Speziali of Florence). They will gather around cathedral schools first, then universities. Their coherence is the same as of - say - academic musicians or geometrists: there is much exchange in matters of shop, quite some jealousy, strong competition for outside recognition, advancement among learned clergy and sinecures, a structured way to assign students and teach, but little political unity. Natural magicians - as formally learned people - have their special privileged and protected place in medieval society, and are hence protected from open hostility both by nobility and the Order.

Ascetics, Spirit Masters, Necromancers and Gruagachan IMO are too individualistic to form larger groups. Their role in society depends mainly on their individual reputations as holy or powerful, and of eventual followers.

The life of Kabbalists is quite completely described in Kabbalah, so I will not lengthen my post with it.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Are you sure about this? That sounds like a very special starting character. Remember, the maximum size of the bonus received from vis is Int+ Alchemy+ Philosophy. Note that is the bonus, not the number of pawns usable.

Example; A Natural Magician with Int +3, Alchemy 3, and Philosophy 3 could add two pawns to his spellcrafting and get a bounus of +9, not add nine pawns for a bonus of +45.

Have fun,
Gene

You are right about this. To avoid heated discussions, here the quote from HM p.42: "Vis can also be spent to increase the spellcasting total. For every extra pawn of vis used in this way the casting roll is increased by five, to a maximum bonus of the natural magician's Intelligence+Alchemy+Philosophiae." Many will have misread this passage, given without an example in HM.

Kind regards,

Berengar