Why the hell isn't there a Ars Magica Fantasy out there? 90% of the people I've seen play, or have played with have had to do their own conversions in order to enjoy the BEST magic system, when related to spell casting anyhows, with one of the Worst environments.

Sure, it makes ALOT of sense that you spend months at a time studying in a laboratory (or other place where there's alot of the element being studied) to learn a spell or raise a Form/Technique, but how practical is it to gaming? Too much realism and the fantasy part dies off, ruining a game.

I mean, hell, even the only onLine MuD/MuSH games do fantasy style in their conversions of the game, that should say something at least....

Now I'm sure everyone who reads this post will object in their own way, about how great the setting is, but I have to expect that since the people I know who play avoid the forums because they are so 'off theme' with their games. However, surely some of you have at least considered the option of doing a more fantasy type setting?

Instead of being so critical in my remarks, let me list some of the most common shared ideas that the different groups I've interacted with have had in their "House Rules".

First, of course, is a wide list of non-human races. Each offering bonuses and negatives to certain attributes.

Second most common is a complete ignoring of, and creation of Combat Rules (where the most liked was the Combat system that mirrored the spell system). Ie:
Techniques: Precision, Speed, Power, Defense, 2-Weapon.
Forms: Axe, Bow, Club, Flail, Polearm, Sword, Thrown, Unarmed.
- Precision+Weapon goes against Defense+Weapon(of Defender) for Parry OR
- Precision+Weapon goes against Defense+Unarmed(of Defender) for Dodge.
- Every 10 Points of Speed+Weapon+(Die Roll) is an extra Action per turn.
- Every 10 Points of Power+Weapon+Dice increases damage by 1 (and the weapon damages are reduced by 1 across the board)
- No Technique can be used at a rating higher than 2-Weapon if you're using 2 weapons.

** BTW, that wasn't the most common, just the most "energetically" explained to me by a group who loved the way they did it. **

Thirdly, they lose the non-sensical way of learning and go back to "spend XP" with an average of 5 XP a game.

Fourth, they start out at 50 Spell Points and 50 Form/Tech points. (meaning you're behind by about 200 XP), gives you a very good reason to play a more warrior-like type, though with the above mentioned skill system, that could be expensive to play too...

Those 4 things are common in almost ALL the HouseRule games (a good 9 out of 10 AM games I've encountered) I've talked to people about (and both of the MuDs I've found via mudconnector). So what are the chances of someone actually getting something official for a Fantasy oriented Ars Magica type game? I can guarantee it'd sell ALOT better than the Core game has done....

Sphynx

Answer #1: There is, it's called Rune. :)

Answer #2: There is, it's called Ars Magica. IIRC, there wasn't much in the way of real magic, faeries, or dragons in historical Europe.

But I know what you mean: "Why isn't there a version of Ars Magica with its own fantasy world?" And the simple fact is that almost every fantasy RPG gets stomped in the marketplace by the 10 ton D&D gorilla. The ones that survive do so because they offer something unique -- and one of the things that makes Ars Magica unique is the great use that it makes of European history.

Ars Magica as-is has its own small but profitable niche. Ars Magica Fantasy gives up a large part of that niche to compete more directly with the most successful RPG of all time. This is not a recipe for success.

cheers,

Chris Aylott
The Space-Crime Continuum
selling interesting books & games
http://www.spacecrime.com

Sure, they could make a fantasy setting for Ars that's not Mythic Europe, but how many people would use *that* setting? Few I'd think.

Instead, they can give all the rules needed to play medieval fantasy, with a setting you can take or leave. A better combat system, and some guidelines for "Mythic Mundanes" would go a long way to making Ars more suitable for generic fantasy games, while still allowing a Mythic Europe setting as core.

~Alex
pax

I have to say, though, that if we do something like this, it will be a momentary sidelight. As far as the bulk of supplements, we don't want to split the audience by trying to support multiple settings. I think we may be able to get away with a single one-shot curiosity, but active support for a non-Mythic Europe setting is not likely.

Do one or two alternate historical settings (Augustinian Rome, Renaissance, Mythic China) and some fantasy settings.

I'd buy that.

~Alex
pax

Al3x said: Sure, they could make a fantasy setting for Ars that's not Mythic Europe, but how many people would use *that* setting? Few I'd think.

I disagree... who wouldn't? Sure the people who play in the current Mythic Europe would maybe want to keep their setting as-is, but in the 12 games I've encountered, only 1 played in the Mythic Europe setting. I found alot of people who just liked to make-characters, and never played the game because it was interesting for them to calculate what their character would have by the time they were 80 (since you don't need to XP to raise levels...) but I'm hoping that's a minority of the AM Game-World.... and all of them were looking to find a game....

John: What is Stalenric (more details... please!! :P)? And besides, I completely meant as a supplement with its own rules. No need to rewrite the bulk of the corebook just for a new theme and some slight rule changes that I was able to fit into a single post. :P If you have a Fantasy world supplement coming out, I'll be the first in line to buy it (hell, I'd write it if I didn't feel like my work would be ignored...)

Edited 6/16/2003 4:00:55 AM ET by WINGED_LION

Ars Magica is indeed a wonderful game, and I share your wish for its success.

But it's "Space-CRIME Continuum".

best wishes,

Chris Aylott
The Space-Crime Continuum
selling interesting books and games
http://www.spacecrime.com

While I appreciate your enthusiasm...the reality is that D&D/D20 has the "generic fantasy" market sewn up tight. The forces at play are much larger than the content of the products. They're more to do with the "installed base" of players, the sales histories, and so forth. Bottom line is, there really is not a reason for the marketplace to abandon its leader, so any effort to supplant it is an uphill battle -- one not worth fighting, in my estimation. It's better to stake out territory where you have a chance (such as the Mythic Europe niche for Ars Magica).

> John: What is Stalenric (more details... please!! :P)?

A sourcebook that was announced in the early years of Atlas (1990-91). It was going to be an Ars Magica campaign in a fantasy (non-Mythic Europe) setting. I never finished writing it.

Hrmmm, except that's not really a territory. Does anyone really think people bought their game for the Mythic Europe setting? I don't think anyone I know even knew it was a Mythic Europe setting when they bought it. Most got it for the spell system (THAT's the territory you niched) because someone else ran the game for them and it made so much more sense than any other game. They almost ALWAYS took the theme out of the game.

I understand the hesitation behind wanting to challenge a giant, but I think you're wrong on something... I think you're wrong about there being no reason for the market place to abandon its leader. It would admittedly be an uphill battle, but not that hard of one. People are tired of d20, and it's falling the way of Gurps. I mean, hell, I don't know a single Lot5R player who could stand the D20 version of the game. The problem is that there's not a "still in publishing" idea that's worth replacing it. So the players have 1 non d20 Option, and that's WhiteWolf (not a great replacement). However, the "Dark Ages" type of games have more than doubled in sales... and every "medieval" setting book they put out, sells.

In the end, the only challenge is correct advertisement. Once the book is in the people's hands, because they know to look for it, the system will sell itself. Those nice 6' cardboard cutouts that TSR did when the last AD&D came out put in all the store windows is the reason I bought the game, and I never even play it, I just thought it'd HAVE to be cool with those images of warriors and wizards. I just can't do character-class/level type games anymore now that I've played AM so much.

rpgnow.com has the complete 4th Edition Ars Magica game for FREE to download (not sure why you guys did/allowed that...) so you've already got a head start on advertising, getting people into the old-edition for free gets them addicted to a great system, throw a banner on all those RPG pages/forums to download it for free and then when something like a Fantasy setting comes out, they have reason to buy it, after all they didn't lose money by just buying the old edition.

Anyhows, I think I've gone on and on about this alot more than people wanna hear, so I'll shush now after saying that I really don't think there's a chance for failure if approached correctly. The community wants the change.

Regards,

Berengar

The trouble with this sort of argument is that non-d20 gamers (such as, the players of the original L5R game) *are* very much in the minority. I personally think it would incredibly cool if everyone was playing, say, Feng Shui rather than D&D. But that just isn't realistic. Nor I think is the idea that the general population of d20 gamers is tired of d20.

Well, I realize that my view on the "general population" could be askewed by the limited travelling I've done in the past few years, but the groups I've hung out with and talked to in Austin Texas, Indianapolis Indiana, Belgium, Netherlands and France have all expressed a dislike of the d20 character-class system.

However, when's the last time a non-D20, non-WhiteWolf game came out with an interesting system? Godlike was kinda cool, but after a couple of games you realized it wasn't play tested well because it really sucked. Hackmaster didn't do so well because KotDT is a very little known comic, and those that don't know of KotDT realized it was just a munchkin version of the previous AD&D game. Gygax came out with yet another character-class game that flopped, because if a person wants character-classes, they just play AD&D. Everything else has been D20 (or too small to notice). So of course the majority play the D20 games, they don't have alot of options. But that majority is looking for an option (I think... I do realize this is just an opinion based on the groups I've talked to)

Of the groups I talked to, they ALL knew about Ars Magica, but didn't like playing it because characters don't improve well. You start out powerful and sit in a lab to become more powerful. And if you start out weak, then you HAVE to sit in a lab to become more powerful... Now don't get me wrong, I'm not dogging AM at all, it's right at the top of my list (standing alone with Shadowrun) of favorite RPGs. But I really want to see more people playing the game and think a different mindset, with a similar system is the key.

That being said, I suppose such a book could be put out, but in the end how different would it be from either the base setting or (to speak the Dread Name) Forgotten Realms? If you take off the limits the magi currently face, it would just feel like some sort of superhero game, for my tastes. As it is, magi become more powerful with the passing years, but the power that they harness becomes very quixotic and eccentric -- a fondness for plants, a fascination with shiny objects, trying to understand disease or The Enigma, something along that line. In a "pure fantasy" setting, I fear that all you would have is what you have in D&D -- weapons platforms.

Personal opinions only, YMMV, etc.

>> How would it be different from the base setting?

Well, hopefully it wouldn't be -that- much different at all. That's why I recommend the supplement idea instead of a game re-write that would lose a portion of its current player base. The only real difference I see is, aside from a different combat system, that Story Experience is the only experience you'd receive, with fewer limitations on expenditure. However, unless you want a game of all Magi (which makes sense in a Covenant setting, but not a Fantasy setting), you'd need a combat system as complete as the magic system. But in the end, things would not be alot different, all the rolls would be the same, but with different characters having different combat quirks (much like Magi have with magic). Secondly, the biggest difference is the loss of Grogs/Companions.

>> If you take off the limits the magi currently face, it would just feel like some sort of superhero game, for my tastes. As it is, magi become more powerful with the passing years

Exactly, so the best way to avoid this? Prevent the starting out as a Super Power. Seriously, a beginning Magi in Ars Magica is comparable to a 12th level AD&D type character. Some people would rather work their way up that ladder instead of start there. My very first character could rip buildings out of the ground (Pull of the Skybound Winds) and was invulnerable to ALL weapon attacks (ReTeHe - 25), although, admittedly, he couldn't hold anything made of metal or plants, but his grogs could... So, how to overcome it? Fewer points of course. Even before we decided to play Fantasy in my first game (a good 10 years ago I think) we realized that we needed to use fewer points at char-gen, and capped it at 50 for arts and spells each (though the GM actually started at 25 for spells, but that was too low)

It's ok to become like Super Heroes, but not start as one in a Fantasy setting.

>> In a "pure fantasy" setting, I fear that all you would have is what you have in D&D -- weapons platforms.

Afraid I don't understand that remark in order to comment on it. What do you mean by weapons platforms? And despite how much I dislike AD&D and the whole character-class system, some of my most fondest memories are of playing that game. Finding posts in taverns or the city market about "Adventurers Wanted" and ridding old ruins of the goblin/orc hoardes that had overtaken it only to find that it was actually the whore house of a skaven cult led by a beholder who was creating an army... Stuff you just can't do in Ars Magica.

Don't get me wrong though, I know all about the rp vs munch attitude, and realize that a Fantasy vs Mythic Europe is balancing more on the munchy side of the proverbial fence. But that's what I think is really needed, a game where it's ok to hack down hoardes of monsters, collect treasure and save damsels in distress. Those are the types of players I've encountered in my travels playing ArsMagica already with their own House Rules to make it possible. What's missing is a good system to do it with.

Load them here:
http://webpages.charter.net/woodelph/Gaming/AD&DXARSM/ars_fantasia.pdf

I appreciate your taking notice that there are people who like Mythic Europe. A quick check of the covenants at Project Redcap can now show you how many.

Regards,

Berengar

How would such a setting differ from Mythic Europe? For a start simply removing the expectation of historical accuracy might make the setting more accessible. Don't want to worry about whether or not guilds or inns are current to 1220? Don't want to worry about what plants and animals came from the New World or Asia and are not available in Europe? Some of this could (and probably should) be accomplished by rewritting the main setting to encourage groups to make ME what they want it to be, but I think an entirely fictional setting could be liberating to many. Then there are the standard fantany tropes: Elves, Orcs, Dwarves, Dragons, and similar. ME either removes them or attempts to reconstruct them according to older legend. More focus could be placed on adventures and travel: lost ruins and networks of caverns don't fit quite as seemlessly in ME.

As for how it might differ from Forgotten Realms. I not sure that it needs to. It might not result in a game that you would like to play, but that really isn't the point -- the idea is to draw people who like Forgotten Realms but want something that D&D isn't giving them. Personally, though, I'd stick with the Mage centric focus (albeit with "mage slot" companions for those who want to play something else). Wizard Schools are a common element of fantasy and something very like the Order of Hermes would fit in fine. I'd also keep the elements of AM that aren't strongly tied to setting -- an assumed base of operations, multiple characters, long term timescale. These are the key elements, I think, to who AM plays and they are what will set the game apart from D&D.

While I know there are people out there that like Forgotten Realms, but want something that will play different from D&D (either full time or merely as a change of pace), I don't know how many. Particularly as many of them will switch to games like Exalted, or find some version of Mythic Europe that suits them find. The question, really, is are there enough that wouldn't otherwise switch to be worth catering to them specifically? Because, honestly, I might do Ars Fantasy as a lark, but I don't know if it would be worth buying for my collection. I like ME and when I occasionally tire of Ars Magica I want something more distint then just a new setting.
Kevin

I walked past AM at the game shop for years when I thought it was yet another generic fantasy game. I had heard about its revolutionary magic system. It didn't motivate me to get the game. The day someone explained it was set in a Mythic version of medieval Europe, I ran out and bought it. Within a month, I'd bought six more books, and gotten two friends to buy a book or two out of curiosity (one was a history student who was very intrigued by the Kabbalah supplement, and bought it at first glance).

The setting *is* the game, so far as I'm concerned. I've "house-ruled" the written game rules beyond recognition at this point, but I still grab up every supplement that promises new information on Mythic Europe.

Cheers.

Anyhows, I've been working on a rewrite on some of the Ars Magica rules for an Ars Fantasy setting and decided that the one thing that I lose in the process (according to the players on this board) is the Mythic Europe setting.

Therefore I've been working on changing a bit of the theme, so that it takes place in Mythic Europe in an 'alternative timeline'. I've already decided that there are 3 European settings for the game in which I plan to start with Italy, followed later by Spain and England. I'll try to stay as close to Mythic Europe as possible, maintaining major Cities and such as well as Rulers, though their character-race may change depending on locale.

In my settings the European continent is over-run with the Evil hoardes of Orcs, Goblins, Trolls, etc, held at bay by the intervention of the Gods. Not sure what the cuase was yet, thinking maybe caused by the "Order of Hermes" going too far in their studies, opening a rift. Or maybe everyone use to live in a harmony that eventually broke into 2 groups... Not really sure yet...

There is no such thing as an Athiest in the alternative world, Gods definitely do exists, and the greatest proof of it is the Hands of the God, AKA the Alps (and Pyrennes for Spain) which are 5 times as massive in my Fantasy Setting. Although some people believe that a monotheistic god used his Angels to create the Hands, and others believe that the Pantheon of Roman Gods performed the act, everyone realizes that Gods do exist.

Currently the theme part of my work is too much into the dev stage to show it all, but idea contributions would be fabulous. If anyone's interested, I've put my ArsFantasy doc on-line at http://arsfantasy.i-sphynx.com, you're invited to take an initial look-see.

Sphynx

However, I'd be interested in a melding of Warhammer Fantasy world with Ars rules.

Guess I'm a fuddy-duddy.

~Alex

Sphynx