Ars Magica Sons of nobles
From: Dievs Posted on: 8/4/2003 3:23 am
To: ALL
Message: 273.1
I have been reading the Ordos Nobilis ( A mighty good book, I must say) now, and one thing escapes me.

How does a son of noble go to becoming a knight ? It isn't really described there.

1) How about the oldest son af a simple landed knight ? If I undestand correctly, he would inherit the title of a knight, and his father's land, and the duties to his father's lord.
OK, the land/duties part happens when the father dies.
What does he do before that ? Is he knighted before that ? Does he have to serve as squire ? Is he sent to the military service to the liege instead of his father, when, say, the father is getting old ?

2) How about a non-inheriting son of a higher noble who wants to become a warrior ? Again, I am interested in what happens before the knighting.
And who knights him ? His father ? His father's lord ? How about the youngest son of king ? Who knights him ? Or is he assumed already to be a knight since birth ?
Does a son of a baron+ noble have to prove himself in any way before becoming a knight, or is it automatic ?

3) What about squires - who assigns them; What are the terms of the 'deal' between a knight and his squire ? Isn't a squire the social equivalent of the knight (like, they both would be sons of the same ranking noble, just squire might be younger) ? Can a squire be of a higher rank than the knight (like, a landed knight, with a squire who is a son of a baron or higher) ?

4) In social customs, when there is a separation of people by status (like in Ordo Nobilis sample scenario, A Bad Knights Work, when the princely families are seated at a secluded table, knights and 'worthy citizens' at other tables, and the rest are standing), is the squire expected to be/sit with his knight, or to sit separately according to his own status ? How about other companions that a knight might have - like, a lackey or something ?

I read also the King Arthur Pendragon RPG, but couldn't find such things there also :(
Maybe there are some other (preferably online) resources that you can point me to ?

From: Al3xWhite Posted on: 8/4/2003 8:32 am
To: Dievs
Message: 273.2
in reply to: 273.1
Hmmm. Tough questions. I can only suggest you look over this website and its links.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/

~Alex

From: TimothyFerg Posted on: 8/4/2003 10:31 am
To: Dievs
Message: 273.3
in reply to: 273.1
I hasten to note that what I'm about to answer for is an idealised romantic English setting. In real-life Scotland, for example, being a knight was -really- rare, so much so that the offer of it by the king was seen as a special mark of favour (until James I started flogging them for cash.)

> How does a son of noble go to becoming a knight ? It isn't really
> described there.

> 1) How about the oldest son af a simple landed knight ? If I
> undestand correctly, he would inherit the title of a knight, and
> his father's land, and the duties to his father's lord.

Not necessarily - some knights hold land in gift, which reverts to the lord at the holder's death. Ignoring that though, the young knight is fostered to another household when he's a lad, where he works as a page until he's ten or so, then he becomes a squire and his master treats him brutally to toughen him up, and then when he is ready he becomes a knight. If he's not ready, a guardian is given control of his land (his leige, or a relative, as examples) until he is.

> OK, the land/duties part happens when the father dies.
> What does he do before that ?

He acts as a squire or soldier for some friend of his father's unless his father is rich enough to maintain both of them as knights.

> Is he knighted before that ?

Maybe. It depends on his age and skill.

> Does he have to serve as squire ?

Yes, unless his father is a major landholder, in which case he gets knighted, even when very green, if his father dies.

> Is he sent to the military service to the liege instead of his
> father, when, say, the father is getting old ?

Yes, usually. It helps to curry favour with the liege, particularly if the lands are in gift.

> 2) How about a non-inheriting son of a higher noble who wants to
> become a warrior ? Again, I am interested in what happens before
> the knighting.

If his father can find him a place he does. If he can't the son mythically, becomes an errant, which is to say he rides about the place seeking adventure. In real life, he tries to get the money and land to support himself by joining a side in any convenient nearby war and fighting for pay, spoils, a place in the household of the winner (since his household will be thinned out by the war) or land if he's particularly lucky.

> And who knights him ?

It varies by historical period. Later only kings can make knights, earlier any knight can tap you in, particularly on the battlefield.

> His father ? His father's lord ? How about the youngest son of king ? Who knights him ?

The one who pays for his bread knights him, usually.

> Or is he assumed already to be a knight since birth ?

No.

> Does a son of a baron+ noble have to prove himself in any way
> before becoming a knight, or is it automatic ?

He has to not be utterly senile, and has to look like he's likely to have children at some stage. Note that the term Baron means anyone who holds directly from a king, and some of these officies are reserved for effective people that the king wants around him in time of war. A weak child who is knighted to fill the seat of a barony will have a strong guardian.

> 3) What about squires - who assigns them;

Whoever is paying to feed the squire and the knight, except in some cases where a knight enters service with a squire in train. Often a father will arrange for a friend to take his son as a squire, though.

> What are the terms of the 'deal' between a knight and his squire ?

"Do what I say and I won't hit you very often." Being a squire is a deeply unpleasant experience.

> Isn't a squire the social equivalent of the knight (like, they both
> would be sons of the same ranking noble, just squire might be
> younger) ?

No, a knight is a part of the militocratic elite. A member of the caste of warriors society has been moulded to provide for. A knight is the armoured weapon platform of his generation. A squire is just some guy's kid.

> Can a squire be of a higher rank than the knight (like, a landed
> knight, with a squire who is a son of a baron or higher) ?

The son of a baron is not a baron. The two people you describe above do not have the power relationship you suppose. The knight's duty is to be harsh - that's why you are fostered away from your family by preference - so that they won't make you a milksop.

> 4) In social customs, when there is a separation of people by
> status (like in Ordo Nobilis sample scenario, A Bad Knights Work,
> when the princely families are seated at a secluded table, knights
> and 'worthy citizens' at other tables, and the rest are standing),
> is the squire expected to be/sit with his knight, or to sit
> separately according to his own status ?

If the knight wants him to serve, he serves and if the knight wants him to sit, he sits. The knight's will in this is compromised by the will of their host, of course.

> How about other companions that a knight might have - like, a
> lackey or something ?

Lackeys who sit higher (closer to the royal seat) than knights can expect to be gutted. It's a grave insult to sit in the wrong place because people who are -literally and quantifably better than you- sit higher than you do. Medieval people don't go for this equality business. Some people are better than others and if you don't know your place other people will kick you there. Weakness in the face of upstarts invites liberties from every other upstart higher in status than the one who slighted you.

Exception: if the king asks someone to sit high up, then they have the rgiht to sit high up and you only get to gut them in a major rebellion or assassination.