Ars Magica Tarragon Vale
From: marklawford Posted on: 10/9/2003 12:32 pm
To: ALL
Message: 297.1
Tarrogon Vale looks like an interesting extract from Sanctuary of Ice. It is good to see the Quaesitores represented as guardians and protectors rather than intimidatory.

Cleverly doesn't mention the house affiliations of the old residents which gives a good starting point for a troupe.

From: Al3xWhite Posted on: 10/26/2003 7:34 am
To: marklawford
Message: 297.2
in reply to: 297.1
Next, I'd like to see some material that was cut, a-la LoFaI and BaS.

~Alex

From: TimothyFerg Posted on: 10/27/2003 6:45 am
To: Al3xWhite
Message: 297.3
in reply to: 297.2
OK, the plan for the cut-outs is like this:

Large bits have been channeled through HP. "Stories for Elder Magi" and "Hermetic Information - Storage and Flow" were cutouts, as are the spells on my web-page. There are two half-formed covenants there, as well.

Some of the mechanics have been swapped over to a legend in Living Legends.

I want to finish "Gifts from the Moon", which is the reworking of Dolomiten Sagen in Ars Form. That'll take a while. The bits that are already done include the lucent faeries and their world, and a brief look at the Rosegarten.

Then, I can go through and look for bits which are removed. I note the mechanics for avatistic magi didn;'t reach the final book, for example.

Do you have any preferences, Alex?

From: Al3xWhite Posted on: 10/27/2003 5:41 pm
To: TimothyFerg
Message: 297.4
in reply to: 297.3
A hermetic history of the Tribunal would be nice.

~Alex

From: TimothyFerg Posted on: 10/28/2003 10:58 am
To: Al3xWhite
Message: 297.5
in reply to: 297.4
Well, I gave you the timeline on the Berklist.

Here's a prop for a game I never got to run. It covers the area you seem to be most interested in:

An account of the foundation of the Order of Hermes in the Library of the Haven, attributed to Tytalus.

Magical practice began in the Alps in ancient times. As is the way of the primitive peoples, magicians were the servants of powerful spirits. In the Danube’s lands, worshippers of the river goddess flourished. Her priests married her handmaidens, producing children with power over weather. The worshippers of Artio, the bear goddess, may have dabbled in shapeshifting in a way reminiscent of the Bjornaer. Jupiter Pennius demanded worship, as did the harvest goddess of the Rhaetians. Much promiscuous avatism was practiced. Among this muck of knee-benders is a single tradition that we might claim as antecedent in honour, if not in power.

The oldest of the warped shades hoarded in the House of Criamon were shamans: workers with the natural powers of stones and herbs. They used a hallucinogenic mushroom, the fly argic, to project their minds into ephemeral states. They had the power to command, not beseech, spirits. They passed learning from master to student, through a complex oral history and painful initiation rituals. These, the crazed and freakish things in the shadow of the Axis Magica, are more honourable ancestors than the Cult of Mercury.

When the Romans colonised the Alps, they bought magician-priests. You are wise enough to know that what we call the Order of Mercury was a heterogeneous group of magicians, representing various traditions of worship. They were co-ordinated by the High Priest of Mercury who was, in theory at least, under the control of the Pontifex Maximus. Various colonies favoured different traditions of practice. They do not, in the final summation, matter.

Revenant rituals aside, these older practices died. Jerbiton believed that the Coming of the Son of Man banished the Old Gods. Trianoma believed that the dawning Age of Pisces altered the radiant vis, forcing beings of the Ariean type to flee the mortal world and the poisonous influence of the stars. In my own time this subtle reasoning has mattered not at all, but in yours, it may be of consequence. Dutiful servants were left to empty temples and worthless supplications The gods had once claimed to give their servants powers, but these were often the result of faerie blood or the Gift.

Imperial Romans thought the Gift literal: magical ability was a sign that a god had chosen you for service. When the gods were banished, or fled, it become apparent that magical affinity was not sacerdotal. The priests continued their mummery for hundreds of years, through a mixture of their personal magic, use of magic items forged with the aid of the missing divinities, and alliances with faeries and spirits. The Cult of Mercury, god of thieves, con artists and merchants, co-ordinated and enforced the deception. When the Rock came to Rome, and his disciples infested the catacombs, the little spirits who allowed the pretence of the old religion were banished by the Dominion.

This then, is where our tradition begins: a world changed, its Order swept away. The remnants killing each other for the substance that can take the place of their missing gods. Killing each other not just from avarice or fear, but because finally – crushingly – we are now unnatural.

The natural forces of the world, which once we served through their personifications, no longer love us. Horses throw us. Dogs bark as we pass. Humans, of even the meanest wit, know in their bones that we are dangerous and they loathe our presence. We are human: we hate each other. The Messiah is come or the stars are poisonous and unlike our ingrate masters, we cannot flee to Arcadia or Olympus. We are mortal. We must remain.

These then, are your ancestors – the magi wise enough to flee the decaying Mercury cult and use their powers to carve lands for themselves at the edge of Roman influence, or centuries later, magi wise enough to loot their useless temples, beat out the brains of their fellow priests, and disappear into obscurity. My own ancestor was of the second group, of course. He was a priest of Mars. During the expansion of the Order, it was one of my great passions to hunt the remaining servants of the war god. Merinita loathed it, my killing those she saw as my kin. I could not regret it then.

Our god had betrayed us, and his servants were too stupid to see that they could be free of him. Were I to do it again, I would do it differently. I was too quick to choose warfare as my tool – to keen to prove myself more skilled in combat than Flambeau and, later, Tremere. Enough…

I will not speak of the origin of Trinoma. I will not name her, even now. Those who claim she was a Greek are mistaken. Those who say she was Roman, well, did she not train with Bonisagus? I can claim fairly to be the last of the Founders, but when she left us, it was afoot, and I still hope, before my end, to receive an intimation that she endures. Her gambits in life were always perfectly timed.

Trinoma’s journey across Europe, gathering the most potent magi of the age, is recounted in various stories, most foolish. I can verify that she met Bernice, mater of Jerbiton, in Greece. She travelled then to Italy, and met Verditus and Guernicus, before travelling to Valnastium, where the apprentices of several of Bernice’s allies were living. From Jerbiton, Trinoma learned of Criamon, a mystic with whom he had debated theology and the theory of illusions. From Criamon, she learned of Bonisagus. She joined him in 731.

Trinoma negotiated with the most powerful magicians in Europe, for thirty-six years, to bring together her vision of Order. Many scorned her, and some did not live to see the end of the negotiations. My own mistress, Guorna, had agreed, but passed away before she could swear the Oath. Bernice of Thracia lived, but had broken her spine in middle age, and was too frail to travel, so Jerbiton swore the Oath instead. I was unable to force my younger brother to serve me, and twelve was an auspicious number, but I have often felt I failed Trinoma that day. Had my brother been bought to heel there would only have been eleven Founders. The symmetries of numerology and astrology would have demanded one more.

It would be wrong to think that there were no large magical groups until the Foundation of the Order: each Founder, save my brother, had a retinue. In Jerbiton’s case they lived in his family home, a term, House, that became fixed. My brother and I bracketed the continent. I planned to surge across the Channel and make the British Isles a pleasance. He planned to spread insidiously eastward until he reached Cipango. We were, of course, far less wise than in later years. My skirmishes with the British antagonised Diedne. Tremere’s stupidity in Greece unified the Hellenic magi against him, under the convenient flag of House Jerbiton.

Criamon was the first Founder to pass away. His House almost disintegrated into covenants, but the other Founders would not permit it. In his final hours, Criamon gave Trinoma a prediction concerning the future of the Order. She founded Haven in 817.
Knowing I had become disillusioned ...[Message truncated]

From: Al3xWhite Posted on: 10/28/2003 8:34 pm
To: TimothyFerg
Message: 297.6
in reply to: 297.5
Damn good. Damn good. What was the game's story?

Any chance of emailing that to me?

As a side question-- what is your opinion of the White Wolf verion of events... with Tremere becoming a vampire?

~Alex


Edited 10/28/2003 8:36:37 PM ET by AL3XWHITE
From: TimothyFerg Posted on: 10/28/2003 10:51 pm
To: Al3xWhite
Message: 297.7
in reply to: 297.6
> Alex wrote:
> What was the game's story?

It was the Prodigial Daughter campaign, which was something in the China book I never got off the ground: Here's the rough draft:

Prodigal daughter Handout

[[INSERT BEGINS]]

[B:] A section of the proceedings of the Grand Tribunal of 1228, delivered by redcap.

The address by Pralix Chen, claiming descent from the magus Ibyn.

Primus of the Revered House of the Founder Bonisagus, Primi, Pracones, Bretheren of the Order of Hermes,

I thank you for this indulgence, allowing me to adress the Grand Tribunal, when so many of you have journeyed so far, and have so many matters which may press you harder than the desperate plight of your cousins in distant Serica.

[Disruptive noise from the audience]

Yes, the Land of the Silk People. You have heard of it, in the writings of the ancients, but I tell you plainly that I am Serican, and you can see I know the chant of the magical shield, which marks me as a member of our Order.

[Further disruption]

Cousins, I have flown to the centre of our Order, because without your aid, every last member of my lineage will die! XX years ago, an army supported by powerful hedge wizards invaded the north of Serica. All artisans, all scholars, all wizards captured by these Mongols were enslaved, their hearts magically extracted from their bodies.

[Disruption]

I can prove everything I say to be true, and I bring you this warning - and this plea. If you do not aid us, then southern Serica will be crushed by the Mongols. We will die, or we will become slaves. If we become slaves, then when the Mongols come west - and west they will come - they will be cloaked in the Shield of Bonisagus!

[Lengthy disruption: The Primus Guernicus later confirms that, after questioning, it appears the speaker believed all she said to be true,with the clarification that ritual heart extraction was only performed on the most valuable slaves. The Grand Tribunal was unable to come to a concensus, save that the Code must be unpheld.]

What are you going to do?

[[Handout ends]]

"Prodigal Daughter" was based on the idea that Trianoma was a the descendant of the Black Horse people, who are recorded in Chinese stories as being soldiers of the Western Empire enslaved and carried to China. The city they founded, Li-jien, still exists in 1220. The Mercurial tradition of Trianoma's people wasn't shattered by the arrival of Jesus.

She quested into the West for thwo reasons - Taosists travel to the edges of the earth to find the subtle substances which allow immortality, and to bring accord in the West. The wqest is where destructive energies (the Perdo form) flows from, and the Order allowed magic in Serica to not be polluted by the huge amount of white energy that was being produced in the west as magi killed each other for resources.

Thousands of years later, a few Chinese magi know that there is an Order of Magi who follw the Tiger style of magic so far to the west that even Trpitaka didn't get there. When the Mongols come out of the West they initially think they are an army ruled by the Order, but then reason that even -further- to the West there are even more destructive pople, and so they head on out to beg for aid.

That Flambeau came from Spain, as far west as you can go without hitting the World Ocean, impresses them no end.

From: TimothyFerg Posted on: 10/29/2003 4:30 am
To: Al3xWhite
Message: 297.8
in reply to: 297.6
As to the White Wolf series of events: Mage makes it quite clear, in the text, that becoming a vampire destroys your Avatar (rips it in halves) and that Tremere became a vampire to avoid the loss of power that would come with the rise of the Technocracy.

In the age of Novas the obvious question is: who's more powerful, and elder vampire, or an elder member of the Order of Hermes? Why didn't he just take over the Technocracy? I mean, rock on Verditus...no-one give you guys lip anymore.

I know he went on to become the new Caine...but this is just Mary-Sue stuff. Each NPC has to follow two really fundamental rules:

- Don't do so many cool things, that the PCs cannot do, that its obvious you are a Sacred Character acting as the avatar of the author.
- Don't do things so that afterward, players cannot do them. If there's something cool to be done, then it has to be doable by the players to remain cool. Tremere is a weak character because he gets it on a plate. "I was a Founder! Then I predicted the coming of the Technocracy! Then I became the New Caine! Then all my followers left me comatose forever so that other authors in the line don't get to screw me up!"

I say this to the Tremere Council - bite the guy already! He's the new sodding Caine and he's entirely at your mercy, lying there sleeping while you keep researching new blood magics. You have the technology! If he wakes up he's probably going to eay you anyway... Get stuck the heck in!

...of course, this doesn't happen, because his followers are too scared to do it. Yeah, sure...these are guys that let him suck on their necks until they died and they are afraid of biting a comatose guy whose coffin they can open.

From: Al3xWhite Posted on: 10/29/2003 7:38 am
To: TimothyFerg
Message: 297.9
in reply to: 297.8
Sounds cool.

I always imagined Tremere as being really terrified of dying-- which was why he was the last Founder to die. His attempts to expand the power of the longevity potion lead to the experiements that resulted in some members of the House turning into vampires.

I also always thought that the return of Tytalus from Arcadia (or that Faerie forest) would be a neat idea for an End of Times Mage chronicle.

~Alex

From: TimothyFerg Posted on: 10/29/2003 8:26 am
To: Al3xWhite
Message: 297.10
in reply to: 297.9
Well, its a good idea. My main concern is that it requires first Tremere and then his followers to go "Sure, vampirism is a good idea." Now, that could just be hubris, as it seems to have been in the basic setting, but you'd need to really have your play of Tremere together for players to buy an evil genius who said embraced vampirism.

One option, of course, is to change the vampirism. Now, if he were of the type of Greek which retains its soul, can move in daylight, cannot be killed by any means, and ignores the Dominion, sure: I'd see that. He keeps the gift and gets immortality as a freebie. His only disadvantages are that he can't cross water, can't enter homes unless asked, can only ask admitance a single time (varies, but in Cos it was traditional to knock twice, because the vampire couldn't) and he's paralysed on Fridays.

The return of Tytalus is a good idea, isn't it? My problem with it gnerally been making him not look too tiny compared to his mythic accomplishments, but not so big that the players need do nothing because SuperMagus is nearby to sort everything out. He's also just the sort of villan that a group of PCs who have matured into Archmagushood might need to take down, not so much because he's Evil, but because he doesn't understand, or doesn't care about, the non-interference provisions of the Code.

One way around this is to have a magus turn up and say that he was raised in Faerie and is an apprentice of Tytalus's. He's been in Arcadia a -very- long time, and his apprenticeship was very ardouos, so he's got the coinpouch with "Bad Motherf*cker" stamped on it, but I don't play him perfectly, well, he's not The Founder Tytalus.

Also, if they kill him, he can congratulate the PCs and, with his dying breath, tell them that his brothers will avenge him.

From: marklawford Posted on: 10/29/2003 9:22 am
To: TimothyFerg
Message: 297.11
in reply to: 297.10

"One option, of course, is to change the vampirism"

Dang it. You beat me to it. In my current saga I plan on introducing the vampiric tremere angle from a different direction. Tremere himself was not a vampire and there were no vampiric tremere until only a few years before they were destroyed. Of course, our saga is set a few years before the Tremeric vampires were discovered so I'll leave the predicted chain of events to your imagination.

I want to turn the whole WoD vampire/tremere thing on its head and really break the link between Ars and the WW Wod setting.

I want to have them acknowledge that nasty vampiric creatures exist and that they are apparently long lived but, like you suggested, who'd want to become a ravening monster?

The slide has to be almost accidental, so my take will be filled with "ancient mysticism", a much more acceptable path. Trouble is, what cost the magic?

Mark

From: Al3xWhite Posted on: 10/29/2003 7:30 pm
To: TimothyFerg
Message: 297.12
in reply to: 297.10
The White Wolf answer seems to have been that Tremere and co didn't really expect the full consequences of becoming vampires. They thought they had distilled the immortality part of the vampirism out of the rest of the nasty shit, like drinking blood/life/breath, the sunlight issue and so on.

In any case, IMS, I use a mixture of White Wolf trash, and various other vampire legends, so the PCs (who know their WW) are always on their toes. Thus, some vamps can go about in sunlight, while others cannot; some can cross water, some cannot, etc.

The Return of Tytalus would be a precipitous event. To make him human in a Mage game, you'd just need to show that he does not understand Paradox at all-- his first attempt to do something flashy strikes him down and reveals his weakness, his inability to cope within the world he has returned to. Nevertheless, he would be a potent magical force. The PCs would need to teach him how to survive, how to not get shot, arrested by the police/Technocracy, and so on.

Alternatively, you have him concentrate on cosmic threats, leaving the world threatening bad-guys to the PCs. While Tytalus battles the DemiUrge, the PCs need to defeat the Archons.

~Alex

From: TimothyFerg Posted on: 10/31/2003 8:25 am
To: marklawford
Message: 297.13
in reply to: 297.11
Odyseeus, perhaps, Mark?

You go to a sacred space, feed blood and honey to the dead and they predict the future for you, or train you, or whatever.

Then one of them teaches -you- how to do it.

Then you find only blood-and-honey nourishes you now, and sunlight makes you faint.

Then you suffer a fatal injury and find that you keep going, but now you have the teeth and things, and don't like honey nearly as much as you once did.

From: marklawford Posted on: 10/31/2003 9:05 am
To: TimothyFerg
Message: 297.14
in reply to: 297.13
Sounds good. I had something in mind, but I reckon I might steal a little of that.

In my take though, I've used the image of the vampire sleeping in the earth of his homeland as the key.

Mark

From: TimothyFerg Posted on: 10/31/2003 9:17 am
To: marklawford
Message: 297.15
in reply to: 297.14
Would you care to expand on that, Mark?
From: marklawford Posted on: 10/31/2003 9:41 am
To: TimothyFerg
Message: 297.16
in reply to: 297.15
Well, in the hope that the troupe don't visit this board...

I wanted to move away from the outright consumption of blood being the source of the power. The other thing that sticks in my memory about vampires is the sleeping in earth thing.

I also wanted to move away from the transylvanian thing and find a connection with life/death magic/belief and "earth". I looked as far as Egypt, with the dead being prepared for eternal life through mummification. The bodies were dried in and packed with sand once their organs had been removed.

It would be fair to say that my take on vamipirism is equally "mummy" as it is "dracula".

Of course, to begin with, no magi is going to submit to living mummification, that is just the root idea.

To prolong the living however, the earth needs sustenance, and that is where the blood "collecting" angle comes in.

I really haven't worked out all the details yet but that is really it in broad strokes.

Mark