Far be it from me to offer an in-depth review but I'll list a few things that I thought were useful and a few new ideas that really add depth to the Order.

Covenant Chapters start to bring in a more medieval feel to the Order at last. We have the Houses and Lineages and Mystae connections but these are overwhelmingly connected with the Order's magical aspects. Chapters bring in the historical feudal element that was missing. I will be exporting this idea to the Roman Tribunal where my current saga is set as it stresses the interconnecting loyalties that enable and/or constrain politics.

A huge number of magi seem to be outlined and all of them feel very individual. Many of them reach further than the Tribunal and suggest benevolent links to other magi not dependent on shared mystical lineage.

For the first time a Tribunal book has treated a Tribunal as a cultural entity describing the pattern of the year in terms of festivals and "holidays". Subconsciously, when I starting in my current saga, I think I was looking for this as Hermetic culture is of particular interest to my Jerbiton magus.

Another two Domus Magnae down and both very individual and distinct.

Things that would make great web enhancements on the other hand would be a little more discussion on the mundane landscape both in terms of what the land supports and some of the mundane history and concerns.

Maps are a little sparse and places of special interest are also a little thin on the ground (although I'm sure repeated reading will reveal a few).

With so many magi briefly explained in the book I could not expect page upon page of stats, and I didn't get them. We have a few scattered around and these do seem to be some of the magi that a saga might include by way of introducing the Tribunal.

So, to sum up, Ars Magica has grown so much in the years since Rome and Iberia were published, and as much as I still enjoy the older Tribunal books, this one could prove to be more useful to an existing saga for the transferable ideas alone.

The lack of mundane setting information and the focus on Hermetic issues places this fairly and squarely in the valuable supplement bracket. And the book itself is quite clear that while a traditional starting Saga is possible within the framework it is not ultimately designed for that.

I'm really glad we set our Saga in Verona at the foot of the Alps, and given that our characters have travelled across the Alps before and will do so again, Sanctuary of Ice is going to be a firm companion piece to our saga.

mark

As the focus of the book is on the high power Hermetic structures it is expected that mundane history is going to be described somewhat briefly, but if you're playing from 1220 onwards that shouldn't be a problem.

Mark

Some of the weaker geographical hooks, and some of the Alpine class info, were trimmed from the draft of Sanctuary of Ice. It was a good move, because basically the Alpine info reiterated a lot of stuff from Ordo Nobilis and given a fixed length, the fresher material was better. You can get most of the mundane stuff you seem to be looking for in ON, but I'm happy to answer questions.

That being said, it means that I do have some of these things about the place, and will eventually put them on the web somewhere.

Chapters aren't original to SoI - they first appeared in "Deadly Legacy", where they were basically collection-houses in vis-rich areas working on behalf of distant, powerful, sponsors. They are a great idea for the North African coastline in the Roman tribunal, and if you are setting one up, Sirocco of Valnastium is a basic plot hook. Her magic is based on illusions of sensory deprivation, by the way. Also, the Mercere bounty, mentioned on page 50, may make the whole thing more feasible for your PCs. Finally, you might want to talk to Ragoneda of Sinews of Knowledge if you want to go into deep Africa. You can do all three, of course.

As to stats, the drafting process basically included me doing one set per covenant, then redoing them for a younger group of magi. I have stats for some of the other senior magi, but the younger ones were a better choice, because frankly you aren't likely to ever duke it out with Athena, La, Philomena or Ygraine. The younger Valnastium magus is Andru, who is just the older Andru, but with a lot more seasons kicking about having fun. Also, in the redrafting I discovered he was a lot more interesting if he objected on moral grounds to mind control. Cunning, sneaky, but not utterly ruthless worked better for me, either as a potentially heroic figure, or as an enemy you can't just kill because he's not actually evil, just manipulative.

The setting does allow for starting sagas - Tarragon Vale is designed for a covenant quite like those in other Tribunals, but you're right, I assume that people knew how to do that sort of thing already. The setting gives more support for starting sagas of a type a bit more familiar from Second Edition, when the idea that there are powerful magi in your covenant was a bit more forcibly present. I -liked- those guys.

Ramble begins! 8)

(Note, not a rant! The lists have been quiet of late, so maybe this will lead to some conversations.)

Some self-disclosure: the basic "finding yourself and establishing your independece in opposition to prevailing powers" theme in Ars has never appealed to me much. My family's part Chinese, and we keep a lot of that veneration of your roots thing going on, so I've always tended to feel that the whole "rebel against the system!" thing in White Wolf was, well, basically an odd Westernism that I was glad to have avoided. Also, the "settling the wilderness" theme that's common is fun, but its not the only fun. I prefer Summer and Autumn fun, although I like some types of Winter fun, too.

As the bit of the Order that is the Old World to the frontiersman campaigns that are usual, the back east to the Levant's Wild West, I thought the magi in the Alps might have just gotten over that whole idea.

[Digression: I think the Tremere have as well - and that perhaps a really useful book could be written describing why working in strong teams might be beneficial in the Middle Ages. I think a lot of players see the Tremere as fascists, when actually they are just a feudal monarchy with an elected prince, so far as I can see. ]

I can see that basically in 3rd edition the Order was meant to mostly be like the Europe the pilgrim fathers fled and that it's corrupt and venal and the young, bright magi are the City on the Hill. I see that the plainsman's distrust of city-slickers comes through in the descriptions of the core tribunals. I do get why other people like it, and I'm not criticisng their tastes. I'm a librarian: read whatever you like. I, personally, don't find the 'Settler' theme captivating and I think other genres are waiting to be used. Players need resources to do something other than find a hill, plonk down a tower and carve out a ranch, because unless they do, it means their sagas are doomed to collapse in Summer.

So, I don't agree with the convential wisdom I've seen on the mailing list that the best start for a saga is a spring covenant with only PC magi. I see it has advantages in that it requires minimal SG input into NPCs and settings, but if you've just bought a book of my NPCs and settings, I can't really say to you "Start with no NPCs and only your covenant and its closest village." I'd prefer to fill the whole thing with detail and allow plots to emerge when the pieces hit sparks off each other. That's probably just me, but there should be a book for people like me, in case there are more of them out there. 8)

Someone in the Order has to be both mature and not corrupt, because otherwise the rest of the thing doesn't make sense. The Code becomes cant and the Law becomes a rationale for the arbitrary exercise of power. Somewhere, the Order needs an effective, mature polity who believe in and support the current way of life, and I assume that's in the Alps, Normandy, Thebes and, in their own way, the Rhineland, Thebes and Stonehenge, where you can be as nasty as you like, so long as you don't cross the thick, dark lines of the Law.

I know that conflict is good for drama, but the setting as a whole doesn't cohere if, as we define each tribunal, each author says "My tribunal is a fringe terrritory dominated by hostile opposing magi" or "My tribunal is facing the threat of collapse due to its inherent corruption (Italy, Transylvannia before the purge), poverty (Rome again) or bellicosity (Loch Leagan, Iberia, Novgorod).

I'm not critcising the other authors here by the way - the individual ideas are good and make the books stronger, and are unavoidable legacies in many cases. I know there was a cleaning out of this sort of thing with WG:RE, where the vampires are dead, the Shadow Flambeau are all but gone, and the Romans are, if not better, then no worse. I'm glad that happened.

The problem is that when you stack them all together, there still doesn't seem to be anywhere that the Order isn't recovering from deep trouble, in deep trouble, ineffective, or in still in the early contact phase of settlement.

These things riddle the books - there's one in Mythic Seas, another in Triamore, even the Alps (which has had less written about it than many tiny French villages before SoI) came equipped with the destruction of the Order predicited by the Criamon Primi in OoH.

The basic alternative I tried to incorporate in SoI is to make the lives of the magi more detailed so that the SG can threaten each one as an individual, rather than threatening the lot with a single plot arc. "The Mongols are coming" works regardless of if you are a Jerbiton or a Merinita. The Shadow Flambeau want to fry you either way. Going for each character individually takes a lot more work, but I like it more.

There _are_ a couple of apocalypses in SoI, but they are presented as unlikely things that might happen. The story of the Leviathan, ...[Message truncated]

"There _are_ a couple of apocalypses in SoI, but they are presented as unlikely things that might happen. The story of the Leviathan, ...[Message truncated] "

Ooh, was that the message board or the Leviathan fearful of his story getting out?

I agree whith you on the tone of previous Tribunal books, and in fact as much as I want to weave the canon into my saga, I am finding it difficult to add in or lead up to the large conflicts because hooks to the individual level are scant. I do prefer to work from the magus outwards and construct stories around their own interests and conflicts. Mind you, the Vampire Tremere thing is ripe for us as we have a PC Tremere and we are playing just before it all kicks off. Of course, I want to do things differently so I'm hoping that it won't be too recognisable.

There is also the problem that I find it hard to cope with the "Mongols are coming" scale stories as it really can overturn everything and essentially wipe the slate clean. I like lots of little plots going on at once, which again is a thing I liked about this books (and Blood and Sand incidentally).

I've guided three sagas so far and all of them essentially had the "young magi thrust together in a remote place and left to get on with it from scratch" motif. As a storyguide I think I'd like a break from that. But it works for inexperienced players. Perhaps my next saga will be set in the Alps. Someone has kindly generated most of the NPCs I'll need.

Mark

In the SoI drafts, and I'm not sure about the book, they are drawn in, and the Order alerted to the Tremere Corruption, by a battle between the Corrupted and someone or other in the graveyard in Vienna. (No, I've checked. It was one of the weaker ones that was taken out because, I assume, there's not a lot PCs can do about it now. Still, it's an idea you might consider.) Vienna's three graveyards are massive, gorgeous gothic affairs that go for miles, and in WW:Mage the chantry for the Tremere was in Vienna, so I wanted to have them smoked out of the place for good. 8)

On a more subtle level, consider that the vampiric corruption may be linked to the odd incidence of basilisks (living poison) in the Alps. I personally think they exist because there's a draconic mystae around, possibly with a bit of the old serpent in the garden thing going on if you want them as villans, and that's why random magi seem to turn up a bit with dragons in parts of the country, but hey, if you say that vampires are basically the Brian Lumley model, then you have these snakey-sluggy parasite things...

With regard to the Tremere, in the draft of SoI, the anti-Tremere bias was stronger, so there was only one maga who made it, who had been purpose-designed as a mole into the Alps. Her details are in the Shadow of the Moon write-up on my homepage.

There aren't a lot of Tremere links deliberately. One of the other things I tried to do was balance the numbers up a bit, for the Order. Many supplements assume that the proportions of the magi in their tribunal are reflective of the whole of order proportions given in OoH. This causes problems, since we know there are actually lumps of Bjornaer, Tremere and Tytalus magi around. Also, the other books have a strong propoderance of magi. That means that the remaining tribunals really should have a proponderance of magae.

I also tried to explain why House Tytalus hadn't recovered from the purge three centuries ago. All it would take is one guy saying to his drinking buddies "OK, new challenge. We each train three apprentices and in 35 years, they fight certamen duels. Each loser owes the winner thirty pawns of vis. Show me what you've got." Hence the cuckoo magi.

>As the focus of the book is on the high power Hermetic structures it is expected that mundane history is going to be described somewhat briefly, but if you're playing from 1220 onwards that shouldn't be a problem.

Good. If something has to be shorted, better it should be the mundane info we can get from books and the Web rather than the Hermetic aspects of the Tribunal. I was very disappointed in Blood and Sand for using half the space on mundane history. The Hermetic material that was presented was good but there wasn't nearly enough of it.

>I've always tended to feel that the whole "rebel against the system!" thing in White Wolf was, well, basically an odd Westernism that I was glad to have avoided.
And:
>SoI assumes that you are doing that good stuff, or at least want to, and you don't have to make sure everyone about you is terrified of your name to get it. The game is not zero sum, in the Alps - the best way to live well is not to kill your neighbour and pinch his stuff (which I hate to admit was one of the basic policies of many of my early characters. 8) )

The problem with the White Wolf material is that the system is always corrupt and the basic theme is 'screw the players'. The only way to survive is to be just as nasty as the other guys, to do it to them before they can do it to you. Anyone who tries to be a nice guy and build something that lasts is just a sucker who is sowing for others to reap. I'm glad that is being pruned from the canon.

>I think a lot of players see the Tremere as fascists, when actually they are just a feudal monarchy with an elected prince, so far as I can see.

If you're on the bottom of the hierarchy what's the difference? They're still a bunch of authoritarian control freaks either way.

>The current bits are about 15 000 words, so I need to seriously consider statrting to release them somehow.

What about the Sanctuary Apocrypha? Any chance that we can see the outtakes now that SoI is available? I've already ordered mine , although it will be several weeks before I get it as Amazon is already sold out.

Gene

> If you're on the bottom of the hierarchy what's the difference?
> They're still a bunch of authoritarian control freaks either way.

Although I can see your point, I'm trying to find a way for players to come to an understanding of the idea that medieval people don't seem to bang on about liberty the way we do, in part because they are scared that if the system breaks down they will die of famine. That means that everyone saying "You really should toe the line" isn't doing it to make themselves more powerful, they are doing it because they are scared of what comes next if the society breaks down. The Church particularly, gets a bad rap for forbidding so much, but most of the time its from an earnest belief that they are stopping the one guy having fun from distributing the costs of that fun to others while he walks off free. Also, village-level societies in ME do break down: it's a reasonable fear.

> The current bits are about 15 000 words, so I need to seriously
> consider statrting to release them somehow.

> What about the Sanctuary Apocrypha? Any chance that we can see the
> outtakes now that SoI is available?

Sure, but I need to write them up. Also, I'm not actually clear at this point what's in, and not in. 8)

> I've already ordered mine , although it will be several weeks
> before I get it as Amazon is already sold out.

Their website for it, when it went up said "2 in stock", so I assume they only ever ordered 2 copies.

Amazon pretty much orders two of each new release initially. Their computer system has some way of figuring out how many they want to stock after that (probably based on people ordering it, maybe hits on the page). We often see add-on orders before the first two copies are even in their warehouse. I believe there are more copies en route to them right now.

Gene

Firstly, SoI: I bought it a few days ago and have finished reading it. I found it enjoyable to read, but unfortunately rather light in detail and whatnot. There was a *lot* of white space, so I felt that the layout was deeply flawed and wasteful. The content was good, but again, light in detail, such as the precise mechanics or specifics of various doobies. What mechanical detail there was, such as with the Amaranths, was hidden in the text and would be difficult to extract during a game session. Additionally, I would have liked all of the various little groups to have been included in an appendix or somesuch at the end in the Mysteries format, or similar, including the relevant special virtues or powers/spells/rituals of the mystae, such as the Rowan Sisterhood, Cult of Dissynergy, etc. I particularly liked the idea of chapter houses, since it was something that I used extensively in my own saga, which started around the middle of 2000. The few other criticisms I have is that some of the information was exceptionally vague, open ended or confusing, such as the relationship between the Cult of Twilight, the Cave of Twisting Shadows and the Dissynergists. I also missed information on the Axis Magicae (?) with the Criamon primi...

Secondly, with regard to the Tremere: I have to agree with Timothy that the Tremere resemble more of an autocratic monarchy than fascists. Certainly, their tactics are amongst the most effective and hateful form of political organisation around. I was mildly dissapointed in the lack of Tremere in SoI, but could accept it since it didn't conflict with anything I'd already included in my saga (although I do have Tremere in Vienna-- in a multi-House covenant set up as a mercantile company).

~Alex

I don't want to buy into the White Space thing at all, since my technical knowledge isn't sufficient for it.

SoI is written in a non-prescripitve, low mystery style. You call it "light" and I agree that it is crunchy-bit light compared to, say B&S, but I'd point out the crunchy bits in B&S are in the hedge tradition. The last core tribunal book was "Heirs to Merlin", which has no mechnical detail in it anywhere, and I recall you reviewing it highly. You have moved from smooth to crunchy! 8)

That joke wasn't at your expense, btw...

> What mechanical detail there was, such as with the Amaranths, was
> hidden in the text and would be difficult to extract during a game
> session.

You'd have liked it in a shaded box? I can see that. The problem there was the the whole book was originally meant to be in cut-upable pieces. That still works in most places, but yes, the text is dense, and you need to work with it to get the most out of it. Actually, large bits of it are designed for redactive reading - because I was reading House of Leaves at the time and so the idea of odd connections between different bits of the book was a fun one for me.

> Additionally, I would have liked all of the various little groups
> to have been included in an appendix or somesuch at the end in the
> Mysteries format, or similar, including the relevant special
> virtues or powers/spells/rituals of the mystae, such as the Rowan
> Sisterhood, Cult of Dissynergy, etc.

The canon is low mystery. That is, mystae are not canonical for writers of new tribunal books. I'm sorry if you expected more - I'd like them to be canonical, but they aren't. I was alllowed to bend the rules and reference the Mysteries at times, by saying "If you are using the Legion, then..." but no further.

I'd also note that SoI was written before The Mysteries was released. I removed most of the mysteries from SoI when the other book came out, in part so as not to compete with someone who could handle the matter in a less than tangental way.

Finally, neither of the groups you've just mentioned are mystagogic. The Rowan Sisterhood are a secular secret society. The Cult of Dyssynergy may not even exist and IMC is actually be made up of the psychological detritus of ascended magi, spat back into the world (that is, it has no magi in it, just things that look like magi until you work out that they are the crystalised id of your dear realtives.) Not every group gets a new power - some of them make do with lots and lots of Perdo and conventional magic items, for example. You too can be in a shadowy group, without having to have its Sign of Power stamped on your forehead. 8)

I mean, you could mystae them up, but the true mysteries groups in the Alpine setting are hidden in the background, partially by me, and partially by my editors cutting out the stranger hints (you can see that someone is doing weird stuff in the Alps with dragons, right? That did make it through, although the character seed for it was lost somewhere on the long march.) The odd thing is that the art was commisioned when they were already designed, so all that's left of one mystagogic group is the art of the guys spying on the Tribunal meeting. 8)

I can see that this isn't as detailled as you'd like, and I accept that in this way SoI doesn't meet your needs. I'll be putting out web material or HP articles to upscale the mystery element in SoI, but it wouldn't have floated in the book, truly.

What do you want, Alex? Seriously...I'm going to finish up my Alpine folktales, and then get onto reworking the SoI spare material. What would you like me to prioritise?

> I particularly liked the idea of chapter houses, since it was
> something that I used extensively in my own saga, which started
> around the middle of 2000.

They appeared in "Deadly Legacy" back in the 1990s - they aren't my idea, but I'm glad to bring them to the attention of new SGs who might not have seen them before.

> The few other criticisms I have is that some of the information was
> exceptionally vague, open ended or confusing, such as the
> relationship between the Cult of Twilight, the Cave of Twisting
> Shadows and the Dissynergists.

That's deliberate, yes. You do need to do more work to use SoI than, say, LoFI. SoI doesn't give answers: it gives questions.

> I also missed information on the Axis Magicae (?) with the Criamon
> primi...

How do you mean? I do accept that's easier to get on a second read, but the axis is described three times, and the odd state of the Primi is described four times. Can you clarify what you missed?

> Secondly, with regard to the Tremere: I have to agree with Timothy
> that the Tremere resemble more of an autocratic monarchy than
> fascists. Certainly, their tactics are amongst the most effective
> and hateful form of political organisation around.

In the Middle Ages, its not all that odd. Not nice in the modern sense, no, but not odd.

> I was mildly dissapointed in the lack of Tremere in SoI, but could
> accept it since it didn't conflict with anything I'd already
> included in my saga (although I do have Tremere in Vienna-- in a
> multi-House covenant set up as a mercantile company).

Well, two covenants were left spare so that you could do these sorts of customisations. Basically though, the Tremere own the neighbouring tribunal...

It is a reasonable fear- for villagers. What I don't get is why scarcity thinking should have such a hold on the minds of magi. They are a group of people who can command the forces of nature, travel hundreds of miles in a single day, heal most diseases with a spell and a few pawns of vis, and expect to live for two or three hundred years. Why should they think like the mundanes around them? A passion for liberty is the product of properity and magi are prosperous even beyond we modern folk in many ways.

I just recieved SoI yesterday and I spent last evening forming an initial opinion.

I like it. A lot.

It looks right. It looks very much as I would expect an organization of powerful magi to look. You won't find the senior magi of the tribunal huddling in the basement of a cheap inn. You won't find a domus magna which is just a few wood huts in the middle of a forest clearing.There is grandeur in SoI. The Alpine Tribunal is a culture, not just a location. This book is the gold standard for Ars Magica Tribunals. None of the others even come close. It looks like we're not getting another tribunal book for several years but at least we had the best saved for last. Even the layout of the book looks right. The tribunal is covered in the first three-quarters of it and mundane society is relegeted to the back of the book. This is as it should be because the tribunal is the focus of the book, not the mundane society of the Thirteenth Century Alps.I confess I had some doubts about SoI. I feared that the repeated delays were due to defects which Atlas was struggling to repair. I'm glad to find I was mistaken.

I will undoubtedly have more to say after I've given the book a thorough reading but a few questions did occur last night.

First, what is the Tower of Skulls? it was referenced in one of the character writeups but I couldn't find it listed in the index. Was it cut at the last minute?

Second, why is the Pietrine lineage worth a +3 virtue? You get two points' worth of virtues built in along with some serious restrictions on character design. It looks more like a +1 virtue to me, unless I am missing something. Especially as the text makes it clear that you don't get Pietro as a mentor unless you buy that seperately. Also, is this lineage what you referred to as cuckoo magi in an earlier post? BTW, I really like the Beloved Enemy flaw, it's very flavorful, and it offers an unending supply of story ideas.

Finally, is Andru's familiar supposed to be size zero? That would make the cat as large as a leopard, if not bigger. Are all of the Black Lineage so large? Or did Andru give it extra size during the bonding process?

One final point about the absence of Tremere. One thing I inferred from the tribunal history is that the lack of magi from the 'troublemaker' houses (Tremere, Tytalus and Flambeau) is a big contributor to the stability of the Tribunal. True, or am I reading too much between the lines?

More later,
Gene

Remember that until the Vampiric corruption of the Tremere, they were the bastion of stablity within the Order of Hermes.

I'd put the stablity down to a MAD situation that is alluded too in SoI... if one covenant starts something, they'll start the biggest something ever, and all the other covenants will try to stamp the covenant and the something out utterly, resulting in a lot of destruction.

~Alex

No, the Tower of Skulls was just mentioned that once. It's meant to be the sort of iconic place that you'd expect a deranged Corpus magus to make. Actually, Brian Lumley has been doing them for years in his Wamphyi books. It's not a real place, well, it might have been at some point - it's just what Ragoneda fears she might become if she ever starts down the slippery slope - mistress of the Tower of Skulls.

> Second, why is the Pietrine lineage worth a +3 virtue? You get two
> points' worth of virtues built in along with some serious
> restrictions on character design. It looks more like a +1 virtue to
> me, unless I am missing something.

Yes, looking at it again, you're right. It does look like a +2 doesn't it?

> Especially as the text makes it clear that you don't get Pietro as
> a mentor unless you buy that seperately. Also, is this lineage what
> you referred to as cuckoo magi in an earlier post?

Sort of - cuckoo magi are Tytalus magi who want to spread the philosophy of the House, so they join other Houses and infest them with their children. Pietro is one of these, but not the only one.

> BTW, I really like the Beloved Enemy flaw, it's very flavorful,
> and it offers an unending supply of story ideas.

Thank you.

Crucificio is normal cat size: he's on Andru's shoulder in the picture of the Battle of Val Fanes.

The lack of troublemaker magi, from any house, is useful, but there are a lot of quite useful Tytalus and Flambeau magi in the hoplites. House Tremere's big covenant in the area, Highest Aspirtation, was destroyed during the Sundering. Since the sundering was only three Hermetic generations ago, Alpine magi are still a little wary of House Tremere.

Which reminds me... did anything happen in the Alps regarding the Diedne, or is this one of those things that was suppressed.

~Alex

The Savoy section it mentions there was a Diedne settlement in Savoy. In the timeline that's Seminary of Oaks covenant.

Also, check out the vis source on page 99. There is a really basic flaw in the design of House Diedne, if they are meant to be descended from the historical druids, and I was allowed to mention it. There is something really revolutionary in the way Diedne's people follow their mystical practicies: not just that they join the Order, but that they let Diedne, who isn't a competent candidate (in what little of their theology we have reports of) to lead them.

I'd point out that this particular grove is one of the few sanctified Druidic groves we know survived the Schism. The Seminary of Oaks didn't - this is a hook for reconstructionist research.

~Alex

~Alex

So, what is she doing with a perdo-related distaff, and is it a cymar?

And if its is a cymar what is the Rowan Sisterhood really? Let's see what they do: kill Flambeau magi and kill Tremere magi.

Now, a cigar might just be a cigar, but if you were a magus looking for a Druidic survival or reconstruction, that distaff would worry me until it was checked out.

~Alex

There was an Hermetic sport included in the drafts which didn't make it to the final form - magi play a game where they conjure snowmen between them and try to kill each other's snowmen the fastest. Jacinta is the high mistress of this game (as suits the finest perdo maga in the Order.).

For example, one of the things tying the Alpine covenants together is economic interdependence. An excellent idea, but where is the implementation? The only info we have is about Sinews of Knowledge providing longevity potions (and, I would assume healing potions also), but what do the others contribute to the trade system? Valnastium could provide services as mundane relation specialists but I come up short when I try to imagine what other specialties exist. The Cave of Twisting Shadows- ghostbusters maybe? (I could see Bill Murray playing Darius.) Journeys End, Amaranth dealers to the tribunal? It's all very vague. And I found myself wondering how Tarragon Vale's Vanishing Away impacted the Hermetic economy, and how a refounded Vale would fit in.

Likewise, the Bavarian Common is interesting, but how big is it, and how is the distribution handled? Is it divided equally by covenant or proportionally according to size? Do all newly discovered vis sources become part of the Common? Details, details.

Also, where is the conflict? It is indeed good for drama, but it doesn't have to be military in nature. Political conflict can also be very interesting and I don't see much of it in the Alps. With the exception of the split between journeys End and Valnastium regarding treatment of the Fae, everyone seems in agreement on all major issues.
A broad consensus makes the Alps a nice place to live but also a little boring.

Have fun,
Gene

At the most basic level, if you look at the covenant vis supplies, and covenant libraries, they balance out across the Tribunal, not through each cobenant. Valnastium's a bit of an exception. Basically, you decide what you want your troupe to do, and then it fits around that.

> Likewise, the Bavarian Common is interesting, but how big is it,

That depends on how vis rich your saga is.

> and how is the distribution handled? Is it divided equally by
> covenant or proportionally according to size?

What suits the stories you want to tell?

> Do all newly discovered vis sources become part of the Common?

No, check the section on buying a chair again.

> Details, details.

You can't both have details abd have a non-prescriptive book. None of the Tribunal books can give you this level of detail because they need to be independent of the choices you make for your particular group.

> Also, where is the conflict?

Between your PCs and any NPC, based on what your PCS want to do.

> Political conflict can also be very interesting and I don't see
> much of it in the Alps.

That's because I don't know who your PCs are. You are corect that there's no metanarrative setting that says "X must gate Y in all campaigns" except with the ones like Jerbiton and Merinita covenants which were written into the Alps before SoI. That's deliberate.

Yes, you need to do more work with SoI than with one of the modules that has a grand narrative. I think that's a strength - it means you can reuse it a lot more than once again staging the Mongol invasion, or once again fighting the Shadow Flambeau. It also means you can go there and not have to be sucked into the Big Theme, so its more useful to people playing in surrounding tribunals.

Better IMO for books to prescribe and lead the way, and then allow individual troupes to make the decision on varying that info in their saga.

It seems that SoI is a victim of this development decision. Most games take the view of having a firm conceptual framework and assumptions. DnD settings have character levels and Challenge ratings, White Wolf have generation, Arete, Rank, etc, and most games have an indication on the rarity or availability on the most important aspects of the setting. Ars does not.

~Alex

I think there's a tension in it: sure you are often told what to do (your population's set, and if you are a criminal you might just get caught in this tribunal.) At the same time, there's no Corrupt and Meanacing Autumn Covenant ready to do you over.