Apart from common sense or Christian belief what is to stop a Magus hurling a fireball at the Pope? Now the serious question is, dont you think the Dominion is a little too weak?

Lets assume that the Pope is standing at one of Christendoms holiest site with a dominion of 10. Our pyromaniac assassin deducts a measley 10 from his Creo Ignem roll. A problem perhaps for a beginning PC but what about an experienced wizard or even a ArchMage? (Before you tell me that an ArchMage would never be so stupid well perhaps not, but what about the insanity of power and twilight?).

So basically very little stops a Magus operating in the Dominion.

What about true faith? Does the Pope have true faith? From reading a description of the virtue I would consider it questionable. I like the idea that the Pope has 'innate' True Faith purely through dint of his posistion. I think that fits the medieval paradigmn. Yes people who use that word should be punched.

However even if he is a 'living saint' with a rating of 5 that only gives him a 50% chance of resisting the magic for that scene. Its fairly good but is that the only supernatural protection that the head of the Church has against the Infernal, the Magical, or the Fae?

Also consider the following. Bob the Bishop is brutally bashed by belligerent bandits and is rushed to the church where Physicians are summoned. A wandering Magus is travelling nearby and has decided to help. He casts a Creo-Corpus spell, will the Dominion and the Bishops true faith attempt to counteract this? I would think not, surely the Dominion should on rare occaisions be allowed to be discriminating.

Would the following rule change make sense,
Dominion Aura Rating = True Faith possessed by the area.
True Faith* = Level x 10 = Resistance.

*There are two types of true faith. True Faith and Church Rank. True Faith is actual devotion, Church Rank is effective true faith gained purely from church rank.

Fireballing the Pope? Sure, easy.

Taking on the entire Catholic Church when it comes after you for vengeance? Mmmmmmmmm, I think I'm going to take a pass on *that* particular challenge.

cheers,

Chris Aylott
The Space-Crime Continuum
http://www.spacecrime.com/

Already covered above.

"Taking on the entire Catholic Church when it comes after you for vengeance? Mmmmmmmmm, I think I'm going to take a pass on *that* particular challenge. "

Erm... you have sort of missed the point.

We are talking hypoethicals and possibilities. Should I be able to fireball the Pope? Should I be able to turn a bunch of Cardinals into Garden Gnomes? I am not talking about the consequnces of such actions, simply their possibility under existing rules.

Firstly, you have the Dominion. I assume you don't have Pax Dei, the Divine Supplement. In Pax Dei, there are "Dominion Tempers", which alter the aura modifier for certain things, making some things much harder or impossible.

Secondly, you have relics. The Pope would have a number of small relics on his person at all times, and an even greater number if he knew he was going to be going somewhere where he could get magically fireballed. IMS, I assumed around 3-5 true relics for a very powerful person (king, prince, duke, pope, bishop, abbot).

Thirdly, Divine Might. In Ordo Nobilis, it was revealed that monarchs of church and state were invested with Divine Might. While we don't know precicely what they can do with this Might, we do know that it gives them magic resistance. The Pope IIRC, has around 40 Divine Might.

Fourthly, invested devices. The pope would IMO have a number of non-relic but holy magical artefacts. Basically, things made by pious magi, natural magicians, church exorcists, previous sorcerer popes, or bought from Hermetic mages, etc, which would grant resistance to mind control and bodily harm, etc (as per the +1 virtue, magical device).

Divine protection. Of all the inhabitants of Mythic Europe, apart from saints, the Angelic Host would take special interest in the Patriarchs. Additionally, I'm sure there is a guardian angel of Pontiffs, a holy genius loci of the Vatican or avignon, or some other divine agent whose role it is to protect the integrity of the Seat of St Peter against the agression of infernal, faerie and magical attack.

Of course, if the pope is a sinner, then perhaps none of this would work to save him...

~Alex

Cool. I had decided that was the case without having picked up the book. At least for Monarchs. The whole divine right of Kings.

"Fourthly, invested devices. The pope would IMO have a number of non-relic but holy magical artefacts. Basically, things made by pious magi, natural magicians, church exorcists, previous sorcerer popes, or bought from Hermetic mages, etc, which would grant resistance to mind control and bodily harm, etc (as per the +1 virtue, magical device)."

Good point. He probably has a Hermetic advisor as well (code be damned). The Popes in rl did 'consort' with sorcerer types.

"Of course, if the pope is a sinner, then perhaps none of this would work to save him... "

I disagree. The age is riddled with hypocrisey. Of course the Pope is a sinner, but also filled with divine protection!

Never be afraid to make the powerful seem vulnerable in a story. It doesn't matter how well protected a man is there is always a way around it. A Queen of Vis, a summoned monster etc.

For errent foolishness, like a PC deciding to try and read the Pope's mind, then fair enough, throw in all the Dominion and Divine might you fancy.

Mark

A sinful Pope would have Divine Might, but the relics may not protect him.

I like the comment that the only thing that could save the Pope from the mad archmage is the PCs. Very true.

~Alex

Actually that is a great idea for a scenario. It would provide great humour and suspense whilst driving home the delicate nature of the orders survival.

In fact, long before I was reminded of the film I'd started putting together a story that follows the same general plot, with the PCs picking up little clues here and there. Come the next Roman Tribunal...

Mark

Not really, because the game isn't about the dominion. The game is about PC mages doing cool things, and it wouldn't be much fun if the power of faith could just shut that down. It's more interesting to have them be able to do the cool stuff and then have to make choices on the the wisdom of doing it.

Now, if the the game were about saints and other people of faith smiting the fantastic menaces of the medieval world -- which would be a neat game, now that I think about it, because those old saint's tales are full of wild and woolly stuff -- you'd see the power balance going the other way.

cheers,

Chris Aylott
Writer and Retailer
The Space-Crime Continuum
http://www.spacecrime.com/

"Not really, because the game isn't about the dominion."

True but the power of the Church is meant to be a major factor in the game. Its killing of the auras, its snuffing out the power of magic. Basically its the 'enemy' (or rather an enemy).

"The game is about PC mages doing cool things,"

Within the constraints of the reality.

"and it wouldn't be much fun if the power of faith could just shut that down."

Surely thats one of the things that makes it cool. The fact that magic gives way to God.

"Now, if the the game were about saints and other people of faith smiting the fantastic menaces of the medieval world -- which would be a neat game, now that I think about it, because those old saint's tales are full of wild and woolly stuff -- you'd see the power balance going the other way. "

I see what you mean. But in the literature/description of Ars it suggests one thing... the rules suggest the other. I feel that dominion needs to be made more powerful in order to bring it closer to the game as its presented.

But I dont want to go the other extreme of course.

I do, compared to Might and the spell system. It seems weird to me that a magus can conjure up a level 50+ ward but that the greatest corresponding divine aura is only 10 at maximum. I even interrupted my long article on revising the magic system in HP8 to suggest a revision to the way auras, resistance, and penetration work. The idea and mechanics have undergone a lot of testing, and I'm really happy with the way they play. Here's the essence:

1. When players are rolling for spells or using invested devices, don't add the aura into the equation.

2. After the players come up with a spell total and determine whether or not the spell is successful, have them add their (Penetration x 5).

3. Secretly apply the (aura modifier x 5) and subtract resistance, if any.

4. If the result is less than the level of the intended spell, it has been resisted. This might mean there is no effect, or it might mean there is a lesser effect appropriate to the result.

These changes put auras and Penetration on about the same level as the Parma Magica, and I particularly like how they make auras shield others from "unfriendly" powers. They also give Penetration an in-game rationale: it's characters' supernatural talent with adapting their magic to other Realms. Finally, they mean that characters must have enough knowledge of the Arts to cast a spell; they can't rely on an aura to "push them over the edge" and make it possible to cast spells they otherwise couldn't manage.

In the article, I give a lot of examples and deal with unusual situations like multiple targets, wards, and using this formula to scale effects down when only part of them are resisted. I'd be very interested to hear what you think of my ideas and whether or not you think they address the problem you have identified with auras.

I actually like the idea of adding the aura rating to all spell casting rolls. Places with auras are places of power so naturally they should aid in the casting of spells.

"2. After the players come up with a spell total and determine whether or not the spell is successful, have them add their (Penetration x 5)."

Incidentally I think that Certamen should be at x5 as well. Because at the moment their is almost no correlation between your Certamen skill and your chance of success.

"3. Secretly apply the (aura modifier x 5) and subtract resistance, if any."

Is that only 'negative' auras? Or would a dominion of 3 would deduct 15 and a Magic aura of three add to the roll?

"I'd be very interested to hear what you think of my ideas and whether or not you think they address the problem you have identified with auras."

I am not sure I am still considering it. Its certainly food for thought.

I like it too, but when I was looking at everything together I decided it would work more smoothly if the power of the realms aided or hindered penetration, but not the actual spellcasting process. Places of power, in my opinion, should naturally affect magic's potency, but not necessarily its magnitude. Arts are how we determine a mage's power level; if he doesn't know very much, I figure he's not going to be able to cast a very high spell, aura or not.

> Incidentally I think that Certamen should be at x5 as well. Because
> at the moment their is almost no correlation between your Certamen
> skill and your chance of success.

I agree; I'll have to try that. Actually, I would rather that certamen and combat were more similar -- if I had my druthers, I'd design a formula that would work for either, just with Certamen substituted for Single Weapon or whatever. I haven't given the idea a lot of thought, though.

> Is that only 'negative' auras? Or would a dominion of 3 would
> deduct 15 and a Magic aura of three add to the roll?

You apply the (aura modifier x 5) to penetration. In a level 3 magic aura, for example, you add 15 to the total before comparing it to resistance. In a level 3 Dominion aura, you would subtract 15 from the penetration total. This doesn't increase the actual level of the spell you've cast, because you determined its success or failure back in step one, but it might decrease the effective spell level it as it affects the resisting character if you like that idea.

One thing I particularly like about this process, as a storyguide, is that players are not aware of the numerical value of auras and creatures' Might. That is, while they know how powerful their characters' spells are when they cast them, and while they might be aware that they're in an aura, they can't determine how powerful the aura is without judging its effects on their spells. Procedurally, I like letting the players work out their own spell and penetration totals, and before I started using this system that meant I had to tell them the value and type of aura before they could determine the results. This system requires them to do a little more testing under controlled conditions to accurately gauge the magnitude of an aura, and makes casting spells in a "place of power" much more strange and uncertain.

Since you have put it like that I have to say that I think I might agree. (Perhaps it should add to sponting as that reflects just grabbing a chunk of power and shaping it crudely?)

> Incidentally I think that Certamen should be at x5 as well. Because
> at the moment their is almost no correlation between your Certamen
> skill and your chance of success.

"I agree; I'll have to try that. Actually, I would rather that certamen and combat were more similar -- if I had my druthers, I'd design a formula that would work for either, just with Certamen substituted for Single Weapon or whatever. I haven't given the idea a lot of thought, though. "

I am not a person heavily into rules or number crunching (thats why i like the Storyteller system). I do find the Ars Magica combat rules to be a bit too long winded and I did write up a stream lined version. Just to make things flow faster.

"This system requires them to do a little more testing under controlled conditions to accurately gauge the magnitude of an aura, and makes casting spells in a "place of power" much more strange and uncertain."

I quite like that. Normally most SG's just tell us the rating... I have done it myself. it does sort of detract from the signifigance of such a site.

Perhaps... like a bigger aura means there is more "power" floating around for the magus to harness. However, I'm not sure this is a good way to think of it, because magi don't use increments of radiant power like this to cast spells. They always have access to as much power as they need; whether or not they succeed depends upon how good they are at shaping it, not whether or not there's enough power available. Spontaneous magic tends to produce even lower-level effects precisely because it's being shaped so crudely.

But at the same time, I like that something about the site makes magic more (or less) likely to happen. It's like God doesn't like me casting spells in the Dominion, so they get suppressed. I channel enough power to cast the spell, I know enough to shape it properly, but it can't get through the mystical shield that protects His lands. This sounds to me like it's been resisted, not like my stream of power has been cut off. Likewise, in a magical aura, I'm more likely to succeed when I cast a spell, not because I've got more oomph, but because the area is more attuned to things like that happening.

And really, that's the way I think it should be. I mean, I think auras need to be more powerful, because a -10 maximum is pretty much insignificant -- you can be that far below the level of a formulaic spell and still succeed in casting it. A -50 penalty seems more appropriate to me. But a +50 bonus to spellcasting? Heck, even a +15 bonus makes me nervous when looking at the difference between a level 15 spell and a level 30 spell.

For an alternative power source, my best bet should be vis. I can distill it from the aura, and it tends to crop up in places with auras, so it sort of goes with the idea that these are places of power. It's the only way I can increase the power of my spells without increasing my Arts.

But as far as auras go, a boost to penetration is a pretty great thing, especially with wards and other spells that target Might. Just the bonus to /Aegis of the Hearth/ explains why magi would settle down in a magic aura, even if they don't do much lab work. Mechanically, I think this boost is enough of a compensation to removing the aura from the casting equation.

Plus it just makes so much /sense/ (to me, anyway). I deal with modifiers like affinities and special circumstances in the casting part of the process, and outside influences in the resolution. It's like what happens when I try to cast a spell on nothing. If I cast /Clenching Grasp of the Crushed Heart/ at something that looks like a person but isn't (an effigy, for example), I roll for the spell, and succeed in casting it, because I know what I'm doing and I don't botch it. Then, nothing happens, because environmental factors prevent the spell from doing what it's supposed to do -- there's no heart to crush. Likewise, when I cast a fireball at the Pope, I may know what I'm doing and not botch the roll, so the spell succeeds, but the divine aura and his Might would simply absorb the spell, and so no fire would appear. Or perhaps my penetration carries it through the aura, but not his Might -- in that case, the ball of fire appears, but causes him no harm.

> I am not a person heavily into rules or number crunching (thats why
> i like the Storyteller system). I do find the Ars Magica combat
> rules to be a bit too long winded and I did write up a stream lined
> version. Just to make things flow faster.

You should post your version here or on the mailing list. I'd be interested in reading it, and I bet others would too.

I think I will again have to agree. That is a better way to look at it.

"It's like God doesn't like me casting spells in the Dominion, so they get suppressed. I channel enough power to cast the spell, I know enough to shape it properly, but it can't get through the mystical shield that protects His lands. This sounds to me like it's been resisted, not like my stream of power has been cut off. Likewise, in a magical aura, I'm more likely to succeed when I cast a spell, not because I've got more oomph, but because the area is more attuned to things like that happening. "

I have always regarded the Auras as being places where that realm overlaps with earth. And that the Dominion 'cuts off the power'. I do think the overlapping concept works but it also does make sense to think of auras as places attuned/ruled by that realm.

"For an alternative power source, my best bet should be vis. I can distill it from the aura, and it tends to crop up in places with auras,"

Silly question, I (or rather my Magus) can distill vis from Magic and Fae auras. Can I distill from Divine and Infernal areas? I really need to buy more supplements but my own view on this is yes. (I only have the Core book, Grimoire and Hedge Magic the latter being a truely excellent purchase).

I keep on thinking that treating Dominion as an area wide 'True Faith' is a good idea. Basically everytime a spell is cast contary to the 'will of God' a simple d10 must be rolled if you get equal to or under the rating then the spell is negated or subverted.
Is this a good idea? It does make the Domionion somewhere you want to avoid, it also means that regardless of power all Mages are equally vunerable.

Perhaps it should only be this harsh on actual holy ground and normal Dominion should be weaker?

(Do auras have to be equal in that a +3 magic aura would add x, and a +3 domionion aura would subtract x).

I did once have a copy of Pax Dei but that was third ed and I passed it on to someone

I do find the Ars Magica combat
> rules to be a bit too long winded and I did write up a stream lined
> version. Just to make things flow faster.

"You should post your version here or on the mailing list. I'd be interested in reading it, and I bet others would too."

Thanks for the encouragement. Sadly I have lost it and must re-write it! Oh well.

I don't know. The Fourth Edition rulebook says that they can make vis from "any magical aura," which would imply that it must be magic. However, "magical" could simply mean "supernatural" if you want it to -- and you seem to have made that leap by including faerie auras. So, sure, I think you could extract vis from any aura, but that it will be infused with aspects of that Realm. How that manifests is up to you; for example, vis extracted from a divine aura might behave like a relic, or have no effect when used sinfully, but become more powerful when used for a holy purpose.

> I keep on thinking that treating Dominion as an area wide 'True
> Faith' is a good idea. Basically everytime a spell is cast contary
> to the 'will of God' a simple d10 must be rolled if you get equal
> to or under the rating then the spell is negated or subverted.
> Is this a good idea? It does make the Domionion somewhere you want
> to avoid, it also means that regardless of power all Mages are
> equally vunerable.

I don't think it needs it. I mean, for one thing, it undermines the power of faith, because it becomes so commonplace. For another, it means more die rolling and less magical effects, which I doubt will make either the storyguide or the players happy. If you want this sort of effect, you can assume that every church and shrine has a powerful relic, and just make it automatically trigger when magic is cast, but I think that should be a property of relics and not auras.

> Perhaps it should only be this harsh on actual holy ground and
> normal Dominion should be weaker?

When do you have the Dominion on non-holy ground? I would think anywhere with a Dominion is holy.

> (Do auras have to be equal in that a +3 magic aura would add x, and
> a +3 domionion aura would subtract x).

Surely not. I mean, the Fourth Edition aura interaction chart says that magic is -X in divine and +X in magic auras. But you could change this if you'd like to penalize magic more. You could even make it -5X instead, which is sort of like what I advocate.

However, if the divine penalties are basically insignificant, aren't all the aura modifiers pretty much insignificant? Does it really make that much difference if your covenant's aura is 3 or 4? I remember one time where my troupe considered building a covenant in a faerie aura -- they decided it really wasn't worth it unless it was very high-level, and that the botch dice would make that too dangerous. I don't think aura modifiers as they are written have much of an effect on the game -- and I think that makes for an excellent opportunity.

I assumed that Faerie Auras were basically another type of Magic Aura. They do mention the building of labs to distill the aura in fae areas somewhere, I think its in the opening story of the core book.

"When do you have the Dominion on non-holy ground? I would think anywhere with a Dominion is holy. "

A Christian city is all covered by dominion but only parts of it are holy ground, like the actual sites of churches and graveyards. Thats what I mean.

"However, if the divine penalties are basically insignificant, aren't all the aura modifiers pretty much insignificant? "

Pretty much.

Supposing that your magical assassin had spent time perfecting disguise spells, combat spells, and coercion spells to even get close you would still have to devote lots of time to actually getting in position to attack the pope. Even so you'd also want to perfect your defence spells, unless you manage to sneak into the Pope's chambers. Even then, he would be likely to have guards nearby. Also your assassin might, and might not want to have spells ready to flee the site of the murder.

To begin such a quest with hope of success is a lengthy and risky affair. Devoting years of study, however, most magi would be able to accompish the feat, at least theoretically. The Divine works through revelations and miralces in Ars Magica. And, in keeping with that, the Pope is the highest Divine authority on the earth. Therefore you must expect that the Pope will have some sort of revelation or miraculous intervention.

Even without such intervention, and just going on purely gamemechanics it is a daunting task awaiting your wouldbe assassin. The Pope Resides in Rome (Divine aura 7+, typically), he is invested Pope(giving him Divine might of 40+) I would think that the Pope had at least 3-5 faith points worth of relics at any given time. Each faith point would, if I remember correctly, give hime a further 5 divine might each. Bringing his magic defence total to a minimum of 62(7+40+15) and easily up to a total of 75. None of this excludes a particular relic that specifically defends against magic. If a setting where assassinating the pope would come up, I'd personally give him one.

Suddenly a Magi wanting to attack the Pope has to be a middle age Magi, having neccessarily spent his entire life leading up to this event. He/she is not at all certain of success, and stands a real risk of dying in the attempt.

The divine being underpowered? I don't think so.

Regarding harvesting vis; Vis is magical essence. The divine isn't magical and so doesn't gather in Vis such as magi would recognise it. Divine Magi might, if you have them in your campaign(Pax Dei). Infernal can be harvested, with highly uncertain effects, if the gm allows for this(Maleficium). In keeping with this a Magi might harvest Faerie auras, a lot more beneficial aura with regards to magic, as long as he learns the process. I'd judge it to be at least a major breakthrough, as per rules for experimentation.(Wizards Grimoire, 4th ed?)