was there ever any thought to using the Rune Roll of Valor sheet for Feng Shui?... to provide mooks that, while still being beaten, are more on the heroes level?

i ask because of a game i ran rcently where even pumped up mooks couldnt hit the hero... granted he was an old master, with insane stats... though completely legal it seems

for instance the old master has a reflexes of 10... giving him a martial arts action value of 20 (+11 in MA itself, and 9 from the stat)

im just curious thats all... im thinking about using it (i am familiar with the rune rules)

my book is in the car currently, but i just dont remember seeing anything to restrict the AV on the template...

either way, that doesnt solve me other question though, has anyone else besides me thought of using the Rune rolls of valor sheet?... basically you take key stats from the party, put them on a sheet of paper, then you take like the second worse from each column, and thats the stats for the normal creatures.

its official

My Bad

hehe, i did miss the AV value capping at 16... though either way, thats only 4 off..lol

its still a very high amount

he took the Crane Stance fu power.. so basically anytime he gets into a fight, he activates it, and since anyone with an agility score lower than his 9 will make him get a +5 to his dodge... it quickly becomes a matter of spraying an area..

which brings up a point, you guys have more books than i do, plus you know the game better than i do, are there rules for going full mag on someone... ya know?... just emptying a clip into an area?

However, if you're talkin' about firing into an area rather than at a particular target, you should check out the Golden Comeback schticks "Cover Fire" (requires targets to lose a shot or two as they duck and cover) and "Bullet Storm" (similar to Cover Fire, but gives targets negative AVs to attack as well).

Neither of these does damage, tho, they just give you a cinematic use of full auto blazing property damage.

The other thing you can do with lots of bullets could be called "spreading" or "saturation fire", where you saturate a particular area or target to improve the chances of getting at least one hit. Unfortunately, this isn't covered by the existing rules... in fact, the only thing close to it, Cover Fire from Golden Comeback, guarantees you absolutely will not hit anything, it just forces anyone in the area to automatically dodge, losing shots.

A while back on the mailing list someone did suggest a house-rule for autofire that I thought was particularly clever: for each three bursts, +1 AV -1 Dam.

This simulates "spreading" or "saturation fire" particularly well, increasing your chances for hitting while keeping the expected damage reasonable. This means Old Masters and other chars with insanely high AVs may be easier to hit by some schmoe with no talent other than a high-capacity magazine, but then again, the players *should* be a little afraid of machine guns. Mooks with SMGs or full-auto pistols become a bit more dangerous. And if your players don't know that they shouldn't mess with a four-armed demon with Signature Calicos and Four Guns Blazing, then maybe they just need a little "larnin'".

The two methods can even be used in the same game without too much fuss... someone goes full auto, just ask them if they are streaming or spreading, and adjust the AVs accordingly.

There's always aiming, of course. A big spread of automatic fire could be modelled by spending three shots aiming then firing two bursts- a six shot action with +3AV +2 Dam. That was generally what the gun-toting characters did whenever I threw a meaty AV at them.

I find that martial arts-based characters lose out more when faced with high AV enemies...

Against higher AVs, the damage starts to go down to the point where even if you hit, you'll most likely just scratch the target with a flesh wound. Say you've got a 9mm SMG and guns AV of 15 trying to hit someone with a DV of 20... fire 15 bursts for a +5 AV (45 bullets) and if you get an even roll (outcome 0), you're only doing 5 damage... against most targets that won't even wound 'em. However, if your players are frustrated with a target with an insanely high AV, they can at least console themselves that they hit.

Hmm. I guess it needs some playtesting.

As far as MAs having trouble hitting high AVs while guns can aim... that's come up in my game as well. Of course, I could tell the MAs to just buy Coiled Snake schticks, but they're already at the point where that isn't cheap anymore. The best advantage MAs have over guns is it's usually much easier to think of a cool stunt involving MA, while the gun stunts are much more limited and get old really fast.

basically my issue is that since a dodge is based off the highest AV someone has, the old master gets an AWESOME dodge... and mooks generally will never hit..

sure, maybe this is evident in alot of movies, but come on...

i myself am frustrated, imagine a group of insane martial artists, with huge MA action values, and mooks as listed in the books...

"ha ha, hit me now mook, i have a 25 passive defense!"

i mean, seriously.. the only thing you can do then is let innocent people get hit in the process to make the heros look bad.

AV15 attacking AV20, toughness 5, with an 8 damage weapon:

Two bursts 'streaming': Average 0.83 damage, 0.47 after toughness.

Aim for three shots, then two bursts 'streaming': Average 3.48 damage, but takes two actions. 1.99 after toughness, equivalent to 0.99 each action.

Two bursts 'spreading': Average 1.48 damage, 0.49 after toughness.

Five bursts 'spreading': Average 2.94 damage, 0.49 after toughness.

Eight bursts 'spreading': Average 3.30 damage, 0.49 after toughness.

So, spreading doesn't actually offer that much of an advantage, it turns out. With a very high damage weapon and a low toughness target, moderate spreading is effective. I guess there's no harm in allowing it, except against mooks. Although it is strictly superior to single shots.

* Have the mooks attack in groups and "cooperate"... I use a house rule for group attacks, +1 for every member of the group. Thus, a 20-mook mob only gets to attack once as a group, but they get a +20 to their AV.

* Fire Stance does 1 wound automatically, ignoring toughness, everytime someone hits the target.

* Water Sword in the hands of someone with an insanely high Fu (15+) can bring down that AV a bit.

* Ninjas attacking from complete surprise against a target who failed to spot them reduces the target's DV to *ZERO*.

* Use explosions and area-effect attacks. Give the mooks grenades, and then enlighten the Old Master with that old adage about when "almost" applies and the wonders of splash damage.

* You can also use mooks missing the PCs against them... ok, mook missed the Old Master, but the stray bullets just happened to hit that parked car's gas tank/gas station pump/barbeque propane tank/clown's helium tank.

* For sorcerers using the Blast schtick for "Fireball"-type spells, instead of rolling against the target's AV assign a TN based on the damage they want for the blast and the number of targets they want in the area of effect.

* The Damage Escalation Creature Schtick triggered by Fu or barehand attacks might seem like the way to go, but that's too damned slow. Try maybe...

* There's a creature schtick in Thorns of the Lotus, Blaze of Glory I think it's called? Throw a pack of popcorn demons at the Old Master and put him at ground zero when the whole pack goes up.

* More fun with demons... give 'em poison spines or poison skin so every time they get hit with a barehand attack, the attacker gets poisoned.

* This one is pure cheese, but if you're trying to even the playing field... give a supernatural creature "Damage Immunity: Explosions" and then load him down with grenades, claymores, and other explosives.

And finally, the best way to neutralize an out-of-control Old Master is with a story element, usually a villain from the Old Master's past with a mutual grudge and comparable stats. The OM and Villain can pair of with one another while the rest of the PCs deal with henchmen or ticking timebombs or whatever (e.g., Egg vs. Lo Pan in Big Trouble in Little China).

well, this old master dramatic hook wasnt something i could easily toss into the first game, but i was planning on it in the second game... problem is, we never ot to the second game, as he was only staying a week, before going back to panama city.

his hook was "Pursuing last heir to the chinese imperial throne before chinese elements (past present and future) find and/ord kill him"

i didnt have the heart to tell him that it pretty much meant he was working for "the bad guys"

that is, if i read my groups correctly.

i had thought about area stuff, obviously (wanting to do "covering" fire... blanketing the area, more like it)... which i think could fall into the first option you have listed... attacking in groups

I adjust my mooks to my PCs' skill AV's. Mooks still get taken out on an Outcome of 5+, but I have no problem giving some tougher mooks a Martial Arts score of 13 or so. (Why wouldn't the bad guys train their guards and musclemen to kick some ass??) So, yeah, mooks guarding the Inner Sanctum of the Lotus sorceror have now got Dodges of 15, but when a PC has a combat AV of 18+, this still isn't that big a deal.

That way, one good roll by a PC will still take out the mook, but the mooks in the meantime have a much better chance to actually *hit* a named PC and do some minor damage. This keeps PCs on their toes, and gives them pause when they come across a dozen armed mooks. Sure, they'll prob'ly come out on top, but they know they'll most likely take a few bumps and bruises themselves.

The proposed rule of spreading bursts is equivalent to allowing hits on negative outcomes up to the number of burst spread, as long as the outcome is still added (or substracted for negative outcomes) to the damage. With this perspective, it is clear that you improve your chance to damage your opponent as long as the negative outcome does not cancel your damage altogether.
So the optimal spreading is equal to (base damage-toughness-1). If spreading more, you do the same average damage, but you spend more rounds.

So, now let us examine your same character with a high power rifle which I will put at 13 base damage (e.g. AK47). His optimal spread is 7 bursts, and the gain in damage is MUCH more impressive. As a character, I would take maximum advantage of these rules with a special forces character with Lightning reload 3 and a signature rifle!

I think it is a foundation of FS that combat skill is better than brute force. In general, a higher AV is better than a high damage rating (compare e.g. the big bruiser and the old master, or the mook rules). As a consequence, the rules are slanted so that few schticks can actually raise your combat AV.

As a side note, I would forbid spreading against mooks!

I think i'm gonna compile some mook tactics and stuff. they are a lot of fun.

... and would have a good chance to overcome the PC. IMHO it is part of an action movie, especially eastern action, that the PC can fight through a horde of mooks (classic example: Hero (Jet Li)). I would reduce the bonus to perhaps +1 for every 5 oder 10 mooks.

SYL

It also prevents the PCs from ignoring the mooks completely, so it *encourages* players to take on the hordes first. I think it models action movies fairly well... when the fight starts, the hero is outnumbered, maybe gets wounded a few times, but as the fight goes on the horde gets wittled down and loses effectiveness.

It also encourages players to use tactics such as "divide and conquer" instead of just "I shoot the guy", and can lead to some interesting stunts for taking out multiple bad guys.

Add a d6 to the mook attack AV when you feel like it. Or make them whatever AV you like, up to and including the PCs AV level; just institute some alternate rules for taking out mooks. Like 3 hits regardless of outcome takes one down. Any hit regardless of outcome takes them down.

Sometimes an extended fight with 3 or 4 nobody oppenents is the best filler before the main villain. Make them named characters with lower AVs, say 12-13. PCs are forced to take the fight seriously and might even be forced to active dodge.

Just some thoughts of what has worked well for me and my group.

i was thinking the same... i dont want to kill the pcs, i just want to toss the fear of the mook in them..

after all if they just think "oh its just 70 mooks, thats too easy", you end up with entire graveyards dedicated to the fallen mooks... per combat... and the numbers would continue to rise, because everyone knows that if theres a problem, just throw more mooks at it, ventually it'll solve itself... or you'll have less mooks whichever.

a+1 per 5 in the group would be good, but a definition of the group would help... if 40 mooks jump out, and the fight is sprawling over a department store, dont count all 40 in the group... obviously.

i agree

though i did put one PC in the hospital... from a grenade... thats actually pretty sad... but it is movie logic.lol

thats why i suggested using the Rune rolls of valor sheet at the start of this thread... using the PC's stats..

basically in the Rune game (done by atlas) you take down everyons stats that it asks for, then take the second worst stat from each column, and thats the standard stat for the bad guys..

AV inflation in a long running game is a separate issue, and I think there's a thread on it somewhere...