Actually, just one question and perhaps a few comments also.

First, I love the 5th edition. Great stuff, I'm already starting up a new Saga to run for my characters, even dropped a D&D campaign in favor of it. I love the way that the Houses are divided into Lineages, Cults, and Fellowships.

One question, (and many will follow) is regarding Edge of the Razor, and more specifically Magic Resistance. It states, a little too flippantly (can't think of a better way to put it) that swords that recieve this are resisted by magic resistance. So basically the best way to protect your self from a knight is to enchant his weapons? Does that mean that an actual enchanted sword in the lab is also of less use against anyone that has magic resistance? Whatever happened to a sword of dragon slaying (basically the idea of a dragon or creature that can only be hit/hurt by a magical weapon)? Now it seems that magical weapons are a detriment. Would such a sword merely have it's magical properties resisted, but the sword itself pass through (so no damage bonus, but it still hits) or is the whole weapon stopped?

When enchanting a sword in the lab, you are able to give it a Penetration score, so, under these rules, most magi who want to their swords to be able to kill dragons and the like, would enchant the sword with a high penetration score.

Enchanting your enemy's swords would make you immune to them. However, IMO, most knights and crusaders (and the like) would have their weapons blessed or consecrated by holy water, granting them a temporary magic resistance, making this a little harder for the mage to do.

~Alex

<When enchanting a sword in the lab, you are able to give it a Penetration score, so, under these rules, most magi who want to their swords to be able to kill dragons and the like, would enchant the sword with a high penetration score.>

This is not significative ... If you want to kill a dragon or the like I.e make a dragon slaying sword it would take a lot of research about dragons to find their weeknesses and special ingredients. After you have made the appropriate breakthru, you could divise a spell that would better affect dragons at meaby twice the usual penetration of a spell or even ignore resistance, thus make a dragon slaying sword. To do so a mage would have had to invest a number of seasons in the confection of the weapon & quite a lot of ressources.

A more conservative Magus would simple make a weapon that is better at doing what it was ment to do. MuTe5 which grants more dammage to a weapon cannot be resisted since the effect is instant. Even effects which would be resisted do not protect the target from the mundane dammage but the mundane dammage would probably not suffice to subdue a dragon...

<Enchanting your enemy's swords would make you immune to them.>
I don't know how one could possibly play a game where this would be the case. Magic level 1 would now become the ultimate solution to any mundane treat... oh the Baron wants to poison us ! Let us simply nchant all food with a level 1 MuIm so all tastes better so the parma can protect us again the mundane poison... makes so sense to me ...

<However, IMO, most knights and crusaders (and the like) would have their weapons blessed or consecrated by holy water, granting them a temporary magic resistance, making this a little harder for the mage to do.>
True ... some knights would be protected under a holy crusading aura but I doubt that a priest would bless a sword ... he would more so bless the Knight which would also affect his weaponry when worned...

Hope this helps... this is of course according to 4th ed rules...

I truly hate this argument, because it keeps coming up time and again. However, there is an official ruling on the enchantments on weapons subject in the 4th Edition's Parma Fabula that essentially says effects that affect the weapon alone aren't resistable. the effect of Edge of the Razor can't be resisted (according to 4th Edition). Blade of Virulent Flame, however, can be (it creates a blade of flame, a magical medium, which is used to attack the target, and can be resisted).

This, quite possibly, has all changed with 5th edition, whose changes I am mulling over right now.

Steve

Ok, this applies to 4th Edition, YMMV in 5th...

Things to keep in mind when determining what can and can't be resisted.

1) Is it a magically created medium that hasn't had it's duration boosted to Inst. by vis (Anything created by a CrXX spell)? If it hasn't been boosted, it can be resisted (Ball of Abysmal Flame, Pilum of Fire, A Rain of Anvils).

2) Does the spell directly target the magus in question (What does it really affect)? If it does, the magic has to cross the target's parma, and can thus be resisted. Spells that affect the environment of the magus (eg; Pit of Gaping Earth ) cannot be resisted, but are typically avoidable by other means. This is what makes Rego Terram so powerful an art; Many of it's effects are not resistable (but most are avoidable). (The ReTe enchantments to improve weapons Init, Attack, defence, and damage are covered by the weapon enchantment rule in the Parma Fabula. See why the Order likes to go after all the magic items it can that AREN'T in the hands of Hermetics already?)

3) Many intellego spells can be resisted, but not countered. If it does not probe the target's person in some way, a sucessfull resistance roll means he only knows that he has been the target of some detection spell.

Some would argue that a magically altered medium (using muto) is a the same as a magically created medium (using creo). I disagree in most cases; Crystal Dart is one case that I would say is resistable; Earth's Carbuncle is not. It is something that has to be decided, and then that decision stuck with for the rest of the game...

From what I've been reading so far in 5th, much of this has been clarified and much of the ambiguity deal with in summary fashion.

I think the take-home message is that Magic Resistance still requires some judgement and some decisions on the part of the troupe/storyguide.

Magic resistance works the way you want it to in your Saga. But if you want to know what the official rules say, they say any enchantment on any weapon means you get to resist that weapon entirely - you would not take "mundane" damage from the sword, it would bounce off entirely.

Not everyone will be happy with this, of course.

> There has been a long and heated discussion about this on the Berk list, and no conclusion has been reached.

No conclusion? I'm shocked. ;-)

From reading the description of Parma Magica in the fifth edition book, it seems the distinction should be whether the effect of the spell is supernatural or not. Because the spell sharpens the sword to a degree "unequalled" by manual methods and only lasts until sunrise/sunset, it is a "magical" effect and should be resisted by Parma Magica.

The sword, however, is propelled by a mundane arm. The mundane arm is analagous to the gravity examples listed in the fifth edition book. There is nothing magical about the method of propulsion or the sword itself, merely its super-sharp edge. Therefore, the sword should be able to pass through the Parma Magica and strike the magus for normal damage.

The book gives the example of a boulder lifted by magic over a magus' head. When the spell ends, the boulder drops on the magus' head and crushes him like a bug, regardless of his Parma Magica. If the same magus is attacked with a boulder propelled by magic, the boulder stops at the magus' skin or clothing doing no injury.

An interesting question, for me anyway, is that if a sword, created using a ritual spell and the requisite vis, is used to attack someone protected by Parma Magica, does the Parma protect or not?

Actually, as far the rules are concerned, All spells either a) affecting the Magus directly or b) affecting an item that affects the Magus can be resisted.

Thus no "mundane" sharpening with magic (unless of course you simply create a whetstone to sharpen the blade ;-)
So if you sharpen the edge of a blade with magic, that sword can then be resisted by parma. If you like to house rule otherwise, that's fine, but that is how the rules are written now.

And created items are resisted as well, Unless you create them with a ritual that has Momentary duration. Those are mundane items thereafter and cannot be resisted.

Jan

PS. I used something we called "natural state" rule throughout the most of 4th edition, which sort of results in something you seem to want? However, if you do something like this, be warned:
a) SG has to rule quite often what is a natural state and what is not
b) Parma Magica can be circumvented Quite easily (less of a prob in 4th edition, as parma was less useful anyhow)

If I have a large club that I use perdo herbam on to put a hole in it, does it become resistable by Parma Magica?

If I create a muto imagonem spell to change the color of my opponent's sword to pink, does it become resistable by Parma Magica?

If I use rego herbam, rego animal and rego terram to assemble an arrow, does it become resistable by Parma Magica?

If I create a golem with blacksmithing skill and it creates a sword, is it resistable by Parma Magica?

> If I have a large club that I use perdo herbam on to put a hole in
> it, does it become resistable by Parma Magica?

Probably not, since you only destroy part of the tub. There is no magic left afterwards. Of course, the point is sort of moot unless someone tries to hack a magus with the tub.

> If I create a muto imagonem spell to change the color of my
> opponent's sword to pink, does it become resistable by Parma
> Magica?

Ok, this is what the berklist has been going over ever since the book came out (and actually some time before that). Official the answer Probably would be yes, parma would black the blade.
But if the Imáginem bothers you, you could always rule that as Imáginem works through the species (even officially), the sword in itself is not magical, and thus cannot be resisted.

> If I use rego herbam, rego animal and rego terram to assemble an
> arrow, does it become resistable by Parma Magica?

Now this depends. If the magic used to create the arrow is done and over with, parma does not help at all. However, if the magic is required to sustain the arrow, parma is effective.

> If I create a golem with blacksmithing skill and it creates a
> sword, is it resistable by Parma Magica?

The sword is not resistable by parma (I am of course assuming the golem acts as a smith and thus creates the sword in a mundane way). This is essentially the same as using a magically created whetstone to sharpen a sword. No magic actually acts on the sword itself.

Jan

PS. I have No interest in getting into a debate whether 5th ed. official rules are better or worse than anyone else's ideas about magic resistance. I have seen quite enough of flame wars about the topic and know there is no chance to convince everyone. I know what works for my sagas (which at least for a while will be pretty much as written in 5th ed rulebook).

I have no desire to engage in a flame war either. I am just trying to understand the rule. I don't particularly care what the rule is. I just want the application of the rule to be internally consistent. I don't think it is at this point.

If I cast a spell that makes the hilt of a sword a different color, does that make the sword resistable by Parma Magica? If yes, that's ridiculous. If no, what's the difference between that and the magically sharpened sword?

> If I cast a spell that makes the hilt of a sword a different color,
> does that make the sword resistable by Parma Magica? If yes, that's
> ridiculous. If no, what's the difference between that and the
> magically sharpened sword?

Actually I think the current magic resistance is quite consistent as written. If there is a magical power ACTIVE on an item, it can be resisted.
And if you think Imáginem color changes make it absurd, that is very easy fix with the species interpretation (which is an easy conclusion to draw from Imáginem description).
Of course using species that way would cause its Own problems. Such as not being able resist an invisible blade.

There is no magic system in rpgs that cannot be abused by players if given free reins. ArM5 is much better in that regard than many others (and certainly better than ArM4).

I guess the imaginem example was a bad one. Say I use muto animal to change the leather on the hilt to a different kind of leather, or I use muto terram to create runes on the blade of the sword, do either of those spells make the sword resistable by Parma Magica?

Are either of these sufficient to make the sword have an ACTIVE magical power on it?

> I guess the imaginem example was a bad one. Say I use muto animal
> to change the leather on the hilt to a different kind of leather,
> or I use muto terram to create runes on the blade of the sword, do
> either of those spells make the sword resistable by Parma Magica?

> Are either of these sufficient to make the sword have an ACTIVE
> magical power on it?

Yes. Even those minor changes are resisted by parma. Whether it is a problem or not, is another matter (and depends much of your troupe's playing style).
And while you try to find ways for parma to block (originally) mundane weapons, just do a low level Creo Vim spell to give the sword a magical aura (that does not do anything else).

I would note, that while most of the effects you have described thus far are low level, you need at least Voice range and Diameter duration for them to be truly useful, which increases the magnitude by two. Thus the young Magi can spont them without fatigue probably only if the Arts match their best ones (or least one of them does). Sponting with fatigue is of course possible, but you can't do that too often without suffering penalties. And with formulaic spells you Might have a problem, the effect is so low level that it might be able to penetrate your parma ;-)