Well 5th ed. has penetrated to the north of England, and I love the new look. The old Hotz artwork looked gritty but didn't look like actual medieval artwork. Much of this does (though some goes a little too far toward cartoon-style). Overall though I think it's great.

I've a question however about spontaneous magic. The main book and the formulae both describe casting totals as-

FATIGUING SPONTANEOUS MAGIC:
CASTING TOTAL: (Casting Score + Stress Die)/2

NON-FATIGUING SPONTANEOUS MAGIC
CASTING TOTAL: Casting Score/5 (!)

This is a typo right? This appears to be the only place in the book where a dice roll isn't explicit.

I can't imagine why it would be diceless but confirmation would be appreciated.

Cheers

Dave

I thought it was likely. Thanks.

Anyone know if there's a FAQ or Errata list starting anywhere?

Dave

Actually, it's not a typo. There is no die roll for non-fatiguing spontaneous magic. This was discussed during the playtest. If you had a die roll for every non-fatiguing spell, then players would be tempted to try every spontaneous spell at least twice: once (or more) as a non-fatiguing spell hoping for a lucky roll, and then again as a fatiguing spell if that didn't work. That would slow down play and it's a bad case of meta-gaming, so I like it better with no die roll.

You can add in a die roll if you want as a house rule, as long as you trust your players not to abuse it.

I still haven't got the rules, but will so tomorrow.

So I cannot yet put all things about ArM5 in perspective. But let me say that I like the rule about not rolling any die for non-fatiguing sponts a lot.
It appears to give every maga character a base of simple effects she can produce 100% reliably any place, any time, and as often as she wants to: just great for role playing and defining a character.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Wow, no dice roll? There's a thing. I think I like it, especially Berengar's suggestion about a base of effects.

Thanks for the input, people.

Dave

From: Njordi Dec-7 5:54 pm
Base of effects?
Well, if you're a starting magus, unless you are an extreeme specialist (or rulesrapist), this base of effects should amount to close to nothing.

Many of the basic magical effects (from creating light to transforming the appearance of a person to altering wood and more) require only level two or three. Very achievable for a mage with 2-3 good techniques and a few moderate forms. And that's without considering talismans or favourable virtues.

It doesn't require a specialist or rulesrapist at all (unless you're expecting to be able to cast a fireball without fatigue).

Dave

Indeed: good heavens, even with zero Tech and zero Form, if you have a good aura (5) and good spell-casting stamina (2), you can spont a L2 (rounding up as always) without fatigue or die roll.

L1 and L2 effects can be quite useful. (If you want more, exert yourself!)

lots - working back til I get bored...

MuMe 3 touch/diam/ind - minor change in someone's memory

InTe 3 touch/mom/ind - learn one visible property of an object

MuTe 3 - Touch/Conc or diam/Ind - change one property of dirt

PeTe 3 Touch/Mom/ind - weaken dirt (10 cubis paces)
ReTe 2 Touch/Mom/ind - move dirt in a natural fashion (10 cubic paces)
ReTe 3 Touch/Mom/ind - move dirt in an unnatural fashion (10 cubic paces)

InVi 1 Pers/Mom/Ind - am I in an XX aura
InVi 2 Pers/Mom/Ind - what power XX Aura am I in
InVi 2 Touch/Mom/Ind - does this thing hold raw vis?
InVi 3 Pers/Mom/Taste - get a taste if I am at a regio boundary

PeVi 1-3 Pers/Mom/Ind - dispel a spell on myself, if casting level < 1/2*(level + 4 mags + stress die) - useful to end a Sun spell of your own casting

From: Njordi 6:26 pm
Ok, give me some examples of usefull lvl 1-3 effects, then! Taking into consideration that r/d/t should be usefull too.

and more...
CrCo3 +6 bonus to recovery rolls; prevent all of a target's wounds from getting worse.

InCo3 Locate a person to whom you have an arcane connection

MuCo2 Change someone to give them a minor ability.

MuCo3 Utterly change the appearance or size of a person (must still remain human in form).

PeCo3 Do superficial damage to a body (e.g. remove it's hair - well we all need a hobby!)

ReCo2 Make a target lose control of a body part.

ReCo3 Move a target slowly in one direction as long as the surface can control it's weight.

CrIg3 Create a light equivalent to torchlight, heat an object to be hot to the touch, ignite something very flammable (like parchment).

MuIg3 Change a fire so that it is slightly unnatural (e.g colour the flames or make them smell like roses).

PeIg3 Completely extinguish all light in an area.

CrAu3 Create a severe weather phenomenon; deafening thunder, monsoon rain, impenetrable fog, gale force wind.

etc. etc.

All this without a dice roll. I love this game.

Dave

Njordi has the right spirit, but I fear has failed to notice that the effects he quotes are all Personal range, Momentary duration - the base guideline effects. This is often not useful (eg the CrCo3 GL to boost healing rolls, is completely useless as a Momentary effect - you need the effect in place throughout the healing period)

To get useful spells, you have to (but can!) pick out spells which have a useful combination of RDT with some GL, while still remaining in the 1..3 range.

For example the GL1 CrCo "+1 to recovery rolls" Pers/Mom/Ind can be boosted to Pers/Sun/Ind and still only be Level 3 total.
(Of course, if you can raise 10-15 without a die roll, and dividing by 5, then for healing you are better off to exert yourself, add a die roll and divide-by-2 ... you'll have the fatigue back before you are healed!)

I just want to add that I feel that losing the stress die on spontaneous magic - even when not fatigueing - makes hermetic magic just a bit to predictive. Hermetic magic is, to me, not an exact science - maybe the rules have to be exact and maybe formulaic magic tends to be, but magic in generel - especially spontaneous - should always be marvelous and a bit mysterius. Unpredictive. Then again, I've never encountered the problem of players making a double effort (first unfatigueing, then fatigueing).

I'm sticking with the old rules on this one (but for the sake of argument, I might be a bit biased since I've generally opted for mixture of the two recent editions - to my opinion there's several wonderful things about 5th, but also many things I'd rather keep).

The thing with non-formulaic spellcasting is that you need to equal or excede the level of the spell. You cannot just get within 10 and spend the extra fatigue to get it to work.

This means in order to cast spontaneously without the stress die you must have a casting total at least 5 times greater to get the effect.

Just compare some level 10 spells to a casting total of 50. Anyone with a 50 has really mastered an aspect of casting and level 10 effects shopuld not risk exploding on them.

>>I just want to add that I feel that losing the stress die on spontaneous magic - even when not fatigueing - makes hermetic magic just a bit to predictive. Hermetic magic is, to me, not an exact science - maybe the rules have to be exact and maybe formulaic magic tends to be, but magic in generel - especially spontaneous - should always be marvelous and a bit mysterius...<<

I can understand that point, but for me, I also want to be able to see a magus himself become a bit of that mystery as well. So mayber for lower levels it's not so great, but a bit into his career, I think it's appropriate for a magus of sufficient involvement in his arts to be able, maybe with a moment's consideration before hand, thrust his arm out dramatically at a wooden chair and either push it or pull it towards himself with a command (ReHe base level 3, +2 voice- with a 3 aura and making the pointing, well, pointed, shouting some words, and a +2 stamina, the arts only need to total to 20) without worrying about if he might botch it.

I can see wanting to keep magic as something imprecise and thus mysterious. At the same time, if you play up the somewhat inhuman nature of the person that finds whipping through mystical power easier than simply walking over and moving the chair, then your playing up the weirdness of the gift and the way a magus's studies make him other.

Maybe there's two perspectives to the question: One being rule-based as wether to add a stress die or not; the other being how firmly you stick to the rules, or in terms of degrees, how much you as the SG, go just with the flow.

Often I will not ask a die roll or a Total from my players, but instead allow what I find appropriate (seeming possible) and dramatically interesting. Thus I wouldn't nescesarily demand a die roll for an unstressful unfatigueing spontaneous effort, but if they really would like to make an effort and if they're in a tight spot and if I decide to lean on the rules (which certainly kan add a certain unpredictive tension to the players as well as the characters :)), then I stick to the old fashion stress die for spontaneous magic.

The rules, however interessting to discuss, are IMO still only vehicles for the story. A way to know what's probably and a way to add suspense to the players experience. And whenever my players want to enjoy the act of being the able magician e.g. by drawing a chair or anything alike, then I would let them, within reason, without being bogged down in rules.

//If it's a stress die, there's a 1% chance of botching every time//

Well, that might be true, but chance is what makes interesting stories. Challenging SG and players alike. Many times they can even spawn new exiting stories.

//which means that a magus who uses such magic in daily life is going to rack up Warping Points at an completely unreasonable rate//

Anyways, I'm no stranger to statistic calculations, but I do not feel they should influence the rules of the game unduely. The stories we tell are interessting times in the lives of the magi (even though it might be interessting at times to portrait their everyday lives), so whether a magus would, if the rules where seens as definitive for their whole life, rack up Warping Points is to me of little importance.

But then again, as I just wrote to FujiYakumo, as often as I would use the discussed stress die, just as often I would forego it out of not seeing the need for it, but rather just go with the flow.

It isn't so, without fatique, you do not roll, therefore you never fail.

In Harry potter campaing, rego spells can be cast at level 4-5, just enough for house hold magic. Telekinesis too weak for combat but good enough for cleaning the house.

Plus if you have aura of 5 (I recommend that) then +1 to non fatique spells helps alot.

So there you see that Ron's mother can do most of the kitchen job with spontanious magic without warping.