I've been skimming the pages of my new Ars Magica 5th ed. with an enthusiasm of a little child, but the book is unfortunately not the early christmas present that I've wished for.
Don't get me wrong: The long-awaited Ars Magica 5th ed. includes some major improvements to the rules regarding combat,character generation, spells etc, but there are some striking "flaws":
1)Are "Minor Story Flaws" like "(magical) Animal companion", "Blackmail", "Close Family Ties" etc really flaws???
2) The "Major Magical Focus" makes it easier to make speciality wizards such as necromancers, but is it possible to be a necromancer when necromantic spells are ritual spells that only last a year??? According to the new spell rules the max. duration for spells is a year and only ritual spells can last that long. This means that it takes 7 vis a yaer for a necromancer to maintain 1 zombie "servant"....and 8 vis every time he/she wants to summon a spirit. Not to mention the spirits magic might plus level of "Incantion of summoning the dead", which makes spirit summmoning a job for an Arch Magi with a high penetration score.
3) The "Major Magical Focus" seems to call for abuse by Flambeau magi with focus in "flames"...or every elemental magi.
4) The virtue "Greater immunity" can make Ars Magica characters become Marvel heros in a medieval setting.
5) The returning problem with magic weapons in view of the new rules regarding magic resistance and penetration. Do 5th ed. characters need to carry a ordinary weapon for magical encounters and a magical weapon for mundane encounters????

These are questions/flaws that in my view remains unsolved in the 5th ed. However this doesn't make the 4th ed. any better so what we need is not a 6th ed., but some minor adjustments that makes the 5th ed. a perfect christmas present for the critical Ars Magica player.

2) Minor Story flaws according to the description in the book are supposed to have some benefits, they are classed as flaws because you can put heavy pressure on a player to get involved in a specific story using them.

1) I like the new cover as it gives the feel of a medieval illuminated text. YMMV
3) Never had a Necromancer in any of the campaigns I've been in, so can't help you on this one.
4) & 5) Don't overly concern me as it is the Storyteller's job to prevent player's from abusing the rules. I haven't seen a game yet (at least an RPG worth playing) that doesn't have some rules that can be abused during character creation by a player.
6) Doesn't particularly bother me as there are lots of work arounds, however I agree that some clarification on this area would be nice.

I'm sorry you're disappointed with the new edition.

> 1) The cover design and the new interior drawings looks like the
> work a 8 year old.

You're entitled to your opinion on the art, but I don't think you are entitled to insult the artist. :-(

> 2)Are "Minor Story Flaws" like "(magical) Animal companion",
> "Blackmail", "Close Family Ties" etc really flaws???

They are really story hooks. The Virtues and Flaws chapter explains this, though I realize not everyone likes the idea of treating story hooks as Flaws. I have mixed feelings myself.

> 3) The "Major Magical Focus" makes it easier to make speciality
> wizards such as necromancers, but is it possible to be a necromancer > when necromantic spells are ritual spells that only last a year???

It's not practical to create an undead army of zombies if that's what you mean. As to the difficulty of summoning ghosts, the Major Magical Focus should help a lot with your Penetration score.

I think the complaint underlying your message, though, is that formulaic magic got nerfed. Yes, it did, and that seems to have been an intentional design decision. I found permanent magical effects and vis-boosted formulaic spells to be unbalancing in a long-running Fourth Edition Saga. I think the Fourth Edition Covenants Project bore out that observation.

> 4) The "Major Magical Focus" seems to call for abuse by Flambeau
> magi with focus in "flames"...or every elemental magi.

All I can say is, the storyguide is in control of what is allowed as magical foci.

> 5) The virtue "Greater immunity" can make Ars Magica characters
> become Marvel heros in a medieval setting.

Have you played with it yet? That's a pretty bold statement and I haven't seen anyone else complain. Also, I believe there was something very similar in Fourth Edition, yet there was no public outcry then. Certainly I can see how you don't like it, but the rules definitely have been playtested, so at least some people don't see it as a huge balance problem.

>6) The returning problem with magic weapons in view of the new rules
> regarding magic resistance and penetration. Do 5th ed. characters
> need to carry a ordinary weapon for magical encounters and a magical > weapon for mundane encounters????

Well, on this I more or less agree with you. However it can be fixed by deleting the words in "Edge of the Razor" about the magical blade being resisted. There are ideas emerging about how this rule can be changed without wrecking the whole Magic Resistance system. I think time will tell, there is a way around this problem.

> These are questions/flaws that in my view remains unsolved in the
> 5th ed. However this doesn't make the 4th ed. any better so what we
> need is not a 6th ed., but some minor adjustments that makes the 5th
> ed. a perfect christmas present for the critical Ars Magica player.

It bothers me a little that most of what I see in reaction to Fifth Edition is instant criticism rather than praise for all the cool things that have been improved. In hindsight, I came down pretty hard on the rules myself when I saw the playtest drafts, so I guess I shouldn't complain if others do the same thing when they first see the rules. :-)

I think even David Chart admits (as he pointed out in his Hermes Portal column) that just about everyone will need to make a house rule or two to alter the game to suit his style of play. You can't please everyone. I do think the 5th Edition is solid enough to make this possible without rewriting whole chapters of the game, as needed to be done with ArM4 combat. Also, a number of game features like super-powered vis study and permanent Ritual spells have been removed. I think those features worked fine over a short Saga but added up to overpower magi in a long Saga.

So, Grosseteste, there are some thing you evidently want to fix. What are your ideas on how to fix them? Given the amount of development and playtesting that has gone into the game to make it the way it is now, I don't think there will be major changes coming from Atlas Games any time soon. So why don't we discuss house rules that can make some of the problems you see go away?

"The cover design and the new interior drawings looks like the work a 8 year old."

Potato-potato. I like the design, it has a medieval illumined book kind of style.

"Are "Minor Story Flaws" like "(magical) Animal companion", "Blackmail", "Close Family Ties" etc really flaws???"

They basically acknowledge the truth that they've been all along; mixed blessings and story hooks. Change them back to virtues if you like, I prefer this honest approach, because I know if one of my players takes a faerie companion, there'll definitely be a story that involves him getting the player in some trouble.

"The "Major Magical Focus" makes it easier to make speciality wizards such as necromancers, but is it possible to be a..."

This I don't see as a problem at all. The Necromancy especially. I see Necromancy as Perdo Corpus and Animal, as well as Rego Corpus and Animal and Mentem. For the zombies, you should simply invent a new version of Awaken the Slumbering Corpse (pg 134) and give it a duration of Moon instead of Concentration. Now you have a zombie without Vis. Not as powerful as the Ritual mind you. For controlling spirits, the fact that you have the Major focus, that helps a bunch. From there, do your homework. The Necro should know the spirit's name, horoscope and have an arcane connection. Then you should be able to get through his Might easily. Also master your necro spells for Penetration. I don't see any issue here at all. No one said magic (and especially Necromancy) was easy.

"The "Major Magical Focus" seems to call for abuse by Flambeau magi with focus in "flames"...or every elemental magi."

Abuse by players didn't get introduced with 5th edition. This was abusable before as well, especially with Affinities in 4th edition, and even Passions in 3rd edition.

"The returning problem with magic weapons in view of the new rules regarding magic resistance and penetration. Do 5th ed. characters need to carry a ordinary weapon for magical encounters and a magical weapon for mundane encounters????"

An ongoing issue no doubt, and one that I noticed as well. Definitely cries out for review and possibly a house ruling if necessary.

Not trying to down grade your issues, mainly want to point out work arounds. They are legitimate concerns.

Hej Galerius

Thanks for the reply and sorry if I offended you or anybody else who have put a tremendous effort into developeding Ars Magica 5th ed.
My criticism was ment to be constructive, but maybe I went to far regarding the new drawings... )-: (I just think they could have been better and the inclusion of art from the 4th ed. makes the contrast of quality hard to ignore...for me)
Yes - my opinion is the result of a first reaction and Ars Magica 5th edition do not deserve unbalanced negative criticism. The flaws are, as I said, only minor and I sence that we agree, at least partly, on most issues.
The storyguide should, of course, have the final saying when it comes to virtues like "Major Magical Focus" and "Greater immunity". Besides: Magic is marvellous - if its not used for pure power-mongering.
Regarding necromancers I stilll find the new max. duration a little bit too restrictive and expensive when vis doesn't make certain effects permanent. In my view zombies and skeletons are not ment to be recharched by the necromancer every moon or year - with or without the use of vis. The vis and/or duration restrictions on necromantic magic like summoning spirits, creating zombies etc. seems to make the life of necromancers unnecessarily hard/expensive compared to other types of magi - ex. "elemental" and "faerie" mages. This problem will be diffucult to solve without breaking the new spell rules, but I would make "Incantation of Summoning the Dead" (ReMe)a non-ritual spell and "The walking Corpse" (ReCo)permanent - They are still high level spells.
Lastly I'm actually writing as a player who regards Ars Magica 5th ed. as THE rpg, so every issue not mentioned above deserves all the credit it can get (-:

Thank you for the respons

I simply don't like the new drawings, but that's just an opinion.
Yes, the minor story flaws are mixed blessings, but still blessings that should not result in extra vitue points. They should be free story hooks instead...???
Necromantic magic do include perdo corpus/Animal, but I still think that the vis requirement for "Incantation..." (ReMe) and the duration for the ritual spell "The walking corpse" (ReCo) are too restrictive.
I don't have any problems with the penetration rules, but they make casting the above mentioned spells diffucult enough.
Abuse by players is old news, but giving the pregenerated/a Flambaeu magi a focus in "flames" seems a little bit too appropiate.

That's all (-:

Hi -- I want to say first that criticism is welcomed, and listened to. After all, criticism of 4th edition fundamentally helped shape 5th.

On the topic of artwork: I'm personally very pleased with the cover and the graphic design. We made Scott's life miserable getting him to do what we wanted, which was a look that was reminiscent of 13th century manuscript illumination. We had fiddled with stuff like the Book of Kells style of The Black Monks of Glastonbury...but to be honest, that's way out of period, by about 400+ years away from ArM's default period. But art is someting on which tastes vary most widely (and ironically, art and graphics in 4th edition seem to have been something pretty strongly criticized...and most people seem to see 5th edition as a huge step forward). I would take issue with demeaning Scott's talents with that "8-year-old" comment, since he's an incredibly talented artist with an amazingly wide range of styles, and that's what made it possible to do the cover that we wanted -- you're welcome to dislike the art, but it's kind of hurtful to make it an attack on the artist himself. (If you want to get a sense of Scott's artistic range, consider that he illustrated such things as Cthulhu 500, Corruption, Gloom, Once Upon A Time: Dark Tales, and the interior illos of just about all our recent RPG books.)

On the topic of story flaws: When I was proofreading the book, this one made me go "huh?" the first time I read it...but the more I thought about it, the more I liked it, and the more sense it makes. Think of it this way: If you want to have cool things (the virtues), they come with a price...not just bad things that may have happened to you (say, Mute because your tongue was cut out), but the relationships, obligations, and unsettled business of your past.

Say for example you come from a wealthy family. So you have the benefit of being wealthy...and in itself, a wealthy family is not a bad thing. Aunt Ethel may happily buy you all the fancy lab glassware you want...but it means that when Aunt Ethel reports that her cat has gone missing, you have to drop your lab work and go on a cat quest. Or your True Love may give you purpose and inner strength...but she's a definite target for kidnapping by your enemies, and any trouble that she finds becomes your trouble, too.

It's a bit of a reorientation in thinking, but I think it really aligns the mechanics of character creation in the game with the very notion of stories being what the game is about.

Anyhow, as always, we appreciate the feedback and your support of the game.

-John Nephew
President, Atlas Games

Hej John Nephew

I know that I went too far on the new drawings issue, so I've erased the demeaning frase from the text - please give my apology to the proper person (Scott). IT WAS A HASTY AND THOUGHTLESS COMMENT BY ME THAT MAKE ME LOOK LIKE A CHILD CRYING FOR ATTENTION AT ANY COST.... )-:
However, my criticism is about a couple of pages in the book, not about Scotts entire life work.
I'm not an expert on medieval manuscript illumination and I don't know what the majority of the readers/players think, but I just find the new interior drawings less stimulating...THAT'S ALL
By the way: THIS ISSUE ISN'T THAT IMPORTANT
Grosseteste

Edited 12/8/2004 5:56 am ET by Grosseteste

First, I wasn't personally offended by your comments but I do appreciate your apology. I think I have already got through the process of adjusting to the 5th Edition rules and I know criticism is a normal part of the adjustment process.

With regard to permanent magical effects, I know that a lot of players have made noise about their removal I'm confident something will be done about this in future supplements. John Nephew and David Chart do listen to criticism. I am as much in the dark as anyone about what the rules will be and when they'll be released. I am curious how the new Calebais works (I didn't playtest it) because I played the 1st Edition version (yes I am that old) and the story was heavily based on permanent effects, namely the Veil of Mormool, which was like a permanent super-Aegis. I haven't received my copy of Calebais yet, so maybe it contains some advanced rules for permanent spells.

I don't know if I would want permanent zombies, myself. Could be a balance problem for my Saga. If you want them in your Saga then certainly you can make a way. Do you want them for PC's to create, or as villains? If you want zombie villains then you can always say they're Infernal and diabolists can make them (permanent) without vis by summoning a minor demon into a dead body or something. Two other ideas:

1) An enchanted item that does "Awaken the Slumbering Corpse" continuously. Yes it takes a season to create but if you made one with Target: Group you could have a dozen zombies whenever you want.
2) More expensive in vis, use "Watching Ward" to trigger "Awaken the Slumbering Corpse." This would only be good for skeletons, but would let you keep them ready to defend your dark tower or whatever.

Hi, Grosseteste -- no harm done. I do want to emphasize that I do hear and respect your opinion on the artwork (and I'm very glad that it doesn't ruin the whole book for you)...I just didn't want you to have a misimpression of Scott's talents based on what we were directing him to do for this book.

-John

Well... speaking personally I think the ArM5 artwork that was done specially for the book is perfectly okay. It looks as if they wanted to go for a slightly medieval, not totally representational feel, which I think looks absolutely fine. Besides, they kept the good ArM4 stuff and missed out those silly pictures with the barbarian axeman, the Valkyrie archer and the bare-chested bearded bloke in the pub.

P.S. I'm guessing that the magi depicted on the cover are the Founders, right?

For the Necromancy ideas how about:

Awaken the Army of Night Level 40
ReCO (Cr) R:voice D:Sun T:Group
Creates and animates 10 corpses. These corpses will follow simple verbal instructions.
(Base 10, +2 Voice, +2 Sun, +1 Group, +1 requisite)

Lower level versions could make and animate 1 corpse, or just animate corpses(use a seperate spell to create them.) The fact that the Army would vanish at Sun-up has a very Necromancer feel to it.

For Necromancy, you could simply create a ritual that has a momentary duration, that changes an existing corpse into a magical monster with a Might score.(Zombie/Skelton). MutoCorpus with a Vim or Mentum Requisite maybe. Though I could see a few other ways of doing this. Use the spell for awakening animals/plants as an example.

Then you could create a general formulaic spell that grants control over those monsters for a certain duration. The level of course having to equal or exceed the Magic Might of the undead created.

Just an idea.

Not possible I am afraid. Muto effects need to be sustained or the object reverts; not even Ritual D:Mom can overcome this iirc.

Imo to create a permanent zombie would be a form of enchantment. You would enchant a body with a Rego Corpus effect and make the effect 'continual'.

However, there may be easier ways in a future supplement.

Regards

- D Woods

Enchantment does sound like a good way to make it permenant.

CreoVim with a Corpus requisite may be a good alternative.

I don't have the book in front of me at the moment, but the point is, that with Ars Magica's magic system, there are many ways to skin a cat, and with creative rules interpretation a Storyguide and player can make things fit into their own games without too much trouble.

"there are many ways to skin a cat"

Hmmm...

Flaying the Ferocious Feline (PeAn 40)

R: Voice, D: Mom, T: Ind (or maybe Part, making it PeAn 45?)

Completely removes the skin from an animal. In most cases, the animal dies within a few moments from shock, pain and blood loss.

(Base 30 [since the animal is likely to die], +2 Voice)

I hasten to add that I love cats (even though I'm allergic to them), and I would never seek to skin one, or any other animal for that matter! However, you did leave yourself open to that bit of sick humour... :-)

Niall

It's a good thing my cat has magic resistance.

I'm allergic to so naturally I'm the cat's favorite grog.

> It's a good thing my cat has magic resistance.

Plus, you may have to cast the spell up to nine times to make sure it takes!

"Plus, you may have to cast the spell up to nine times to make sure it takes!"

I guess that's why you need more than one way to skin the cat... *grin*

Niall

In regards to necromancy again...(I've a player who usually uses this specialty so I try to think things out in advance)

I see a couple of good ways to do this:

1.You could make a modified version of Awaken the Slumbering Corpse to last a month. Lower Range to touch, and its still only level 30.

2. Enchant a constant use item (see p 99) with the following Effect.

Animate the Unliving Rego Corpus(Base 10, +2 Duration (to sun), +4 levels for constant use & environmental trigger) for a level 24 effect.
I imagine this could be a lesser device, and you place the coin/gem in the corpses mouth, and off you go.)