I see now that it is possible with Cr rituals to instantly increase a caracteristique ... now if I were a magus I would apply this ritual to my apprentices so they all have 5 of intel .. and probably all arch magus have 5 in all attributes...

I find this takes a lot out of the game ...

Also, on on another subject, what happened to potions ?

If you take a look at Gift of Reason, you'll see it can't raise someone's Intelligence over zero. I don't recall if there are even guidelines for raising Intelligence higher than that. Who knows what level it would be to do something like that - perhaps so high that most magi can't manage it. At least that's the way I'd want it for my Saga.

As to potions - they are included in the rules for charged items. Making a potion is the same as making a wand with only 10 uses. The medium doesn't matter: all limited-use items use the same rules.

In theory you could use a ritual(s) to increase the Intelligence all the way up to +5, with a ritual for each point. Very expensive. To increase it to a +5 requires a level 60 Ritual (CrMe base 55, +1 Touch). That's 12 pawns of Vis right there, plus it either has to be invented or purchased as a lab text, and is only useful if the subject already has a +4 Intelligence. I wouldn't doubt that many Magi would LIKE to do this, but very likely lack the resources to do so. I think its expense balances the potential abuse.

Potions are changed to charged items with one further change. You can no longer use Vis in a potion or charged item to make it have a permanent duration. In 4th edition it was cheaper (vis wise) to make healing potions rather than use spells when it came to healing permanently. A healing potion made with vis could have several batches from one season's worth of work, thus healing more health levels permanently than multiple castngs of the spell.

< Potions are changed to charged items with one further change. You can no longer use Vis in a potion or charged item to make it have a permanent duration. In 4th edition it was cheaper (vis wise) to make healing potions rather than use spells when it came to healing permanently. A healing potion made with vis could have several batches from one season's worth of work, thus healing more health levels permanently than multiple castngs of the spell.>

I see ... hmmm kinda kills the alchemist concept ... I find that 5th ed is way better than 4th but it seems that some portions have been cut off so they could have the 'simpler' lab activities dream come true.

<In theory you could use a ritual(s) to increase the Intelligence all the way up to +5, with a ritual for each point. Very expensive. To increase it to a +5 requires a level 60 Ritual (CrMe base 55, +1 Touch). That's 12 pawns of Vis right there, plus it either has to be invented or purchased as a lab text, and is only useful if the subject already has a +4 Intelligence. I wouldn't doubt that many Magi would LIKE to do this, but very likely lack the resources to do so. I think its expense balances the potential abuse.>

Hmmm.. well is I could I would hense all arch magus have +5 in all caracteristics ... so does their familiar & friends if they have any.

"Hmmm.. well is I could I would hense all arch magus have +5 in all caracteristics ... so does their familiar & friends if they have any."

Well, they are Arch Magi, perhaps they have either the resources or found another way to do it. On the other hand that much Vis is probably more than most Covenants have access to over a few years of harvesting.

I'm sure future supplements will offer Alchemical alternatives, such as The Mysteries.

>In theory you could use a ritual(s) to increase the Intelligence all the way up to +5, with a ritual for each point. Very expensive. To increase it to a +5 requires a level 60 Ritual (CrMe base 55, +1 Touch).

Furthermore, when under the continuous influence of potent spells, a character suffers warping. Bad idea for magi.

//You can no longer use Vis in a potion or charged item to make it have a permanent duration. In 4th edition it was cheaper (vis wise) to make healing potions rather than use spells when it came to healing permanently. A healing potion made with vis could have several batches from one season's worth of work, thus healing more health levels permanently than multiple castngs of the spell.//

This was always a problem in ArM4, because ArM4 p.89 "... you must put Art-specific vis to into each potion just as if you were casting the spell ..." is just plain ill worded. In its context it could mean "... you must put Art-specific vis to into each *dose of a* potion just as if you were casting the spell ..." as well as "... you must put Art-specific vis to into *the* potion just as if you were casting the spell ..." - with quite different results for the vis expenditure. The internal logic of the game would imply that the first alternative was meant - though the second is a valid reading of this particular phrase, too.

Still reading ArM5 in the few free hours of each week, with pencil in hand - so no comments on ArM5 issues yet.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Stat increase rituals would be D:Mom. So no warping for continuous affect. There may be warping for the initial casting, but maybe not.

How commonly used these rituals are will be saga dependent. I can imagine Mentem specialists marketing this service. If they have Mercurian magic vis costs are halved...

Regards

- David W

<That's 12 pawns of Vis right there>

I don't know about your campain but 12 pawns of vis for an alliance is about a year of labor or less so not too difficult to obtain & if you are able to get your hands on a lab text of level 60 & reinvent it then I do believe you have the ressources to spare 12 pawns of vis.

I find the just having the option of a quest to find great wizards to pay & augment our stats is so D&D which is a bit disapointing to me but it is just a small portion of the game which is so great :)

A year of labor for 12 pawns of Vis? Maybe Vim Vis, but that doesn't help for this ritual. You need Creo or Mentem. Mentem might be easier to part with, but Creo isn't. The lab text probably exists already, it might be difficult to find, and you still need to have the 60+ lab total, it's just faster with the text. Point is, it's a lot of work for a 1 point bonus.

I do agree with your final statement though.

Initial casting would be level 30+, so you would get Warping for a powerful magical effect... but if it's only once, as it appears, that's not so bad.

Maybe this is where all those Com 5 magi come from. There must be a lot of them to write those books that fill every Covenant library -- unless I'm missing something, every Quality 11 tractatus and every Quality 21 or 22 Art summa has to have been written by someone with Com 5. (Of course, one imagines that high-Quality books as get written will be widely copied in the Order.)

You get warping for a powerful effect unless:

"they themselves were responsible for the effect or it was specifically and carefully designed to work on them."

Regards

- David W

> Maybe this is where all those Com 5 magi come from. There must be a
> lot of them to write those books that fill every Covenant library --
> unless I'm missing something, every Quality 11 tractatus and every
> Quality 21 or 22 Art summa has to have been written by someone with
> Com 5. (Of course, one imagines that high-Quality books as get
> written will be widely copied in the Order.)

Don't forget the Good Teacher virtue...
But true, high-quality books are much more likely to be copied than mediocre (or poor) ones.

>"they themselves were responsible for the effect or it was specifically and carefully designed to work on them."

Oops, I forgot this one. It does limit the thing, though, doesn't it?

One or two Warping points is not a big deal in any case.

In high vis sagas I can imagine experienced magi selling this service. Personally I never liked the idea that stats could be increased. I considered a stat part of essential nature.

Regards

- David W

449.12 in reply to 449.11

A year of labor for 12 pawns of Vis? Maybe Vim Vis, but that doesn't help for this ritual. You need Creo or Mentem. Mentem might be easier to part with, but Creo isn't. The lab text probably exists already, it might be difficult to find, and you still need to have the 60+ lab total, it's just faster with the text. Point is, it's a lot of work for a 1 point bonus.

Absolutely correct. It is piles of work for a +1. Much like the discussion on the Powerful Familiar thread, you can gear your character to do this, but it will take years of study/research and you will end up with just one thing as a reward. I think your character would be much better off diversifying. If you cripple your character by making him so that he is a one trick pony, and that trick is raising 1 stat from a +4 to a +5.....well I don't think you will enjoy actually playing the game much.

As to Vis supplies, I think some people are playing in games with a heck of a lot more vis available than I have ever seen. Vis income for a covenant is very expensive in build points now.

>>"they themselves were responsible for the effect or it was specifically and carefully designed to work on them."

>Oops, I forgot this one. It does limit the thing, though, doesn't it?

They still get warping points for being continously under the effect, (like a longevity ritual). The personaly designed effect exception is for gaining warping points from powerful effects. It does not asprevent the aquisition of warping points from long term effects.

Also, a momentary effect would be gone in an instant. You want an equivelent of one of the fourth edition durations Permanent or instant. These durations do not exist in the system any longer.

You could create an enchanted device to do it for you. perhaps you'd only wear it while working in the lab (12 hours a day probably no more than three seasons a year) this could get you around the "gain an extra warping point per year" problem.

My personal preference is to discourage creation of attribute boosting items because they have the characters dealing directly with a piece of game mechanics (attribute scores). Characters don't know what an attribute score is. I'd force them to describe the effect in terms that are concrete for the character. (Even if the spell level guidlines say otherwise).

That said, a +5 inteligence rather than a +3 is not _vastly_ superior to a lab that gives +2 to everything.

Actually a momentary effect with Creo and Ritual means the magic comes and goes but the effect stays. Since the magic is gone, there is no continuus warping effect. The devices you mentioned would however have that warping effect because magic is constantly on the wearer.

Momentary is the new Permanent Duration, when used as a Ritual, and just like it was before, there is no magic so it can't be unmade like by using Winds of the Mundane Silence.

"My personal preference is to discourage creation of attribute boosting items because they have the characters dealing directly with a piece of game mechanics (attribute scores). Characters don't know what an attribute score is. I'd force them to describe the effect in terms that are concrete for the character. (Even if the spell level guidlines say otherwise)."

Same here but the guidelines for CrMe are quite focused on this subject which is the first things new players will see when they look at the game ( in addition to a lot more I agree ). this will probably result a discussion similar to what we just had here in most troupes...

Guidelines should be guidelines ... by this I mean it should help creativity in that area.I find that the CrMe guidelines are a step in the wrong direction.

ps. I only critic since I love the game & find it really really nice :)

Ha! You have that much Vis to spare and nothing better to spend it on that an Apprentice?
Lucky you...

(Oh, and you know and can cast those high level rituals?)

> In theory you could use a ritual(s) to increase the Intelligence all
> the way up to +5, with a ritual for each point. Very expensive. To
> increase it to a +5 requires a level 60 Ritual (CrMe base 55, +1
> Touch). That's 12 pawns of Vis right there, plus it either has to be
> invented or purchased as a lab text, and is only useful if the
> subject already has a +4 Intelligence

first part correct; second not - you *can* cast the L60 Ritual to add +1 to an Int -5 fool, to get them to -4, then again to -3, -2,-1,... it takes 120 Pawns of Vis and 10 Rituals to do so.

Or, if you have the full set of Rituals learnt, you can cast 5 (+1 up to 0), +1 up to 1, +2 up to 2, ... +1 up to 5, for slightly less Vis.

Not only potions have no Permanent Duration - no other spells or device effects do, either. Momentary Rituals are just that - been-and-gone; *some* Momentary effects have side-effects that are worthwhile after the spell has ended, specifically Creo creation & healing.
Other Mom. Rituals are a waste of time & Vis: Mom Muto just reverts straight away; Mom. Perdo is normally all you need *without* a Ritual.

Do also remember with 5e Healing, that wound healing does not stack: a Cure Light Wounds only curse Light ones; and Cure Medium cures Medium (& Light too), etc.
If you want healing potions - you can: make doses of Moon Duration +N to recovery rolls. You get a recovery roll per Month for (each of your) medium wounds, and per season for Heavy. (3 doses will see you through a season).
Or, make an enchanted device that has 2 (or 2*N) uses per day, sun duration, +N to healing.

that's right:

a plausible sketch for Magi & Com is:

* does not have Good Teacher (or has flaws) -- has 0 or -ve Com

* had Virtue Good Teacher (+3 to book Quality) -- it's worth spending 1 chargen point for Com +1, or even 3 for +2
and vice versa - if you are increasing Com above 0, you get a good reward from the Minor Virtue, and are inclined to take it.

hence across the spread of likely books magi might write, you would find (Com 0 +6)=6 (Com -1 +6)=5, ... (would you want to read these?)
and
(Com 1 +6+3)=10, (Com 2 +6+3)=11 (desirable books - get copied)

and rarely other combinations, like Com 1+, not Good Teacher for Q7+, but again, given a choice, you read the Q10 or 11 book, not the Q7

There's an economic scale for copying and trading books, driven by the desire for readers to spend a season and get a good reward.

IOS we reflect this by giving magi a reputation as they write books, according to the Quality they write:
poor writers usually end up in the "never heard of his books"
strong writers rapidly get a reputation once their books are traded and re-copied.
The exceptional writer with Com 4 or 5 and Good Teacher is feted, and ionvited to write books on commission. (But few magi are such gifted writers...)

Note that you can still acquire a good rep for texts even without Virtues & high Com, if you have high Arts and write beginner Summae... but you still get beaten by the strong writer, who doubles points to a higher limit (hence the existence now of L6 Q21 summae)

"Ha! You have that much Vis to spare and nothing better to spend it on that an Apprentice?
Lucky you..."

Yes. I care for my apprentice & I'm the keeper of the vis in the game I play so sometimes I borrow from the alliance stock :P

"(Oh, and you know and can cast those high level rituals?)"

Yes again. After 4 real time years of play & about 60 years ingame of play we are a Summer alliance that do have ressources & power.

"Other Mom. Rituals are a waste of time & Vis: Mom Muto just reverts straight away"

I Prefer to think more in matter of Natural state. If a Mom ritual ending effect is natural, the effect is instant. Hense if you did a ritual of Mu Te to change dirt into gold it would be instant but if you change dirt into a magical medium would revert in a moment...

you may indeed prefer that... but I was discussing the spells based specifically on the statements in 5th Ed rules.
(BTW - if you are using 4e, you are correct, it's just that discussion is moving into 5e, and that's now the "implicit" context):

5e Muto effects need to be maintained... Muto governs "unnatural" changes... Rego governs "natural" changes.

Muto will change lead into gold, but only if you maintain the effect; Rego will reshape lead, or gold, and the shaping will remain at the end of the spell.

A variant of this spell with target:group could be very intresting to many magi...

In our campain my magus is working on enchancing intelligence for all magi, as well as stamina & strength for both magi and grogs. The later spells will be made to target groups of a 100 standard individuals... Should be an great advantage...

You have read my mind.

If one Magus in your covenant specializes in CrMe and another in CrCo you can trade services to each other. The problem would be that the Ritual would not be made specifically for any one of the hundred people. This means warping points for everyone.

However, once you invent that first spell, you should be able to pop out versions for each person you want to affect in one season (similar spell bonus helps a bunch on those level 40 spells).

Will you be researching a seperate spell for each grog? I won't be. Let them warp, wierd little grogs that they are. Just don't cast on the kiddies. Let 'em breed first.

'you may indeed prefer that... but I was discussing the spells based specifically on the statements in 5th Ed rules.
(BTW - if you are using 4e, you are correct, it's just that discussion is moving into 5e, and that's now the "implicit" context):

5e Muto effects need to be maintained... Muto governs "unnatural" changes... Rego governs "natural" changes.

Muto will change lead into gold, but only if you maintain the effect; Rego will reshape lead, or gold, and the shaping will remain at the end of the spell.'

You are right ... I just read that part in the New Limits ... Essential Nature. This will change much of the play in our game but I think it will simply add some chalenge :)

Hi there,

No all magi wont have 5 int, why? Because the ritual only lasts for a year, so if you want 5 int (assuming you have 3) you would have to spend approximately (dont have the book in front of me so someone can get the exakt amount) 10 + 11 pawns of vis to complete the rituals every year.

For my magi I could think of better ways to spend ~20 pawns of vis...

But on the other hand you could make two spells that gives you the intelligence for only a day (you'd have to be pretty tough since its 10 + 2 and 11 + 2 magnitude spells) , but in our group we have said that if you dont have the intelligence for a longer period of time it doesn't apply to Lab totals. I.e. you get bonus to spont magic but not much else.

Comments?

Gunterius of Ex Miscellanea

"No all magi wont have 5 int, why? Because the ritual only lasts for a year,"

Actually no. The ritual is a D:Mom CrMe. The mind is brought closer to perfection and remains that way indefinitely. It is not a continuing magical effect and so cannot be dispelled.

Aging, disease, injury or a PeMe spell might later decrease Int, but that is another issue.

You could invent a non-ritual D:Moon spell, but that would be +3 magnetudes on the base. To remain non-rital the base could not be more than 35, which is the +1 maximum guideline. As magi have +1 Int as a minimum anyway, this is useless to them.

To provide a marketable service a CrMe specialist with Mercurian magic can invent the Lv60 R:Touch D:Mom T:Ind spell. This will increase Int by one point, up to +5.

Each casting will require 6 pawns of vis. He can set his fee at the market rate, say 4 pawns. Thus a magus with an Int of +3 can get an Int of +5 for the cost of 20 pawns and 2 Warping points.

Regards

- David W

I would say that a +5 int would not be natural for most characters and therefore could not be made permenent by a momentary creo spell. Unike healing and creating a hores but similar to the creation of unnatural things such as a ball of abysmal flame or the image of a rhinocerous.

Can someone who has their book nearby post the relevant section of text for momentary creo spells that act as fourth edtion instants?

In ArM5 Creo can *only* make natural improvements. All unnatural changes are now Muto.

Since the increase Mental characteristic is in the Creo guidelines, this is your answer.

Regards

- David W

+5 int (or any other statistic) is natural for any human - if abit extreme. +6 on the other hand is unnatural.

One could however state that essential nature (like lacking a virtue for it) prevents this enhancement... This should be upto the alpha-storyteller.

Any such ritual is very expensive in any event, and requires some of the most valuable types of vis (Creo is probably the most valuable vis of all).

The CrMe 60 (R:Touch, D:Mom, T:Ind) Ritual is IMO possible to invent with the new ArM5 power level of the Order.
There might also be a single Magus (at the very most there are two) in Mythic Europe who has the Creo *and* Mentem scores, *plus* the Mercurian Magic virtue, *plus* a sufficient Mastery score to cast that Ritual without risking Warping points for himself.
Its application to another magus comes with a rather inconsequential single Warping point only - the same Warping point that also comes from a year under a longevity ritual.

Still it is extremely campaign specific whether such rituals are commoditized to a level where you just travel to that magus' covenant, spend a few pawns of Vis and the magus applies one to you.

I imagine such rituals as major political bargaining chips: those few magi in the ArM5 Order able to cast any level 60 rituals at all are either independent political players of some importance, or they have reached that ability level not on their own, but with the help of other sodales whose agendas and interests they must respect.

Kind regards,

Berengar

I don't see that it would be so hard to cast or create a level 60 Ritual spell. Let's start with the creation of it, the hardest and most time consuming.

Let's start with Magus with an Intelligence of +4, with no specific specialties. Magic Theory of 7 (high end) with a specialty in invention (8 altogether). Then from there he's in an aura with a strong bonus of +6. That right there is a +18. From there let's wring out a few more bonuses. He knows the Gift of Reason, that's a level 35 spell that does the same thing, so it is a similar spell. That gives him a +7, total 25. He also has an assistant (perfectly reasonable for such a beneficient spell, in theory), an apprentice or perhaps a wizard interested in benefitting from this (so another +4 Int and say 5 Magic Theory) for another +9, bringing the lab total up to 34, before Arts are even added. He needs to create this in a reasonable time frame, a lab total of +75 would be good, allowing him to create it in 4 seasons. He needs to make up the 41 in arts left over. That's high, but not unreasonable, 21 in Creo and 20 in Mentem (he's a bit of a specialist, or else he wouldn't attempt the spell anyway). So to check my math:

Int +4
Magic Theory +8
Aura +6
Assistant Bonus +9
Similar Spell +7
Creo +21
Mentem +20
Total = 75, 4 seasons to create the spell.

The main issue is that the Arts involved are rather high, but you can still drop them each 5 points and get it done in a lengthy amount of time, 12 seasons. If they were really serious, they'd have a magus cultivate a Leadership Ability, and have another assistant or two. But even without the assistant, this magus could invent the spell on his own, just slowly, or in one season with a Lab Text (which probably exists somewhere, though might be rare).

The casting isn't all that tough either. Same Magus, has a Sta +2 (no specialty), aura of +8 (needs to get every bonus he can) plus his 41 Arts, already has a +51 casting roll, meaning he'll automatically cast it (barring a botch), and we still get to add his Artes Liberales (let's say 4) and Philosophaie (4 also) giving him a total +59. His Arts easily let him use the Vis needed, and even can throw in extra if he needs to, like if they're in a weak Aura, or if his Abilities aren't that high. There's other advantages he can grab also, without Wizard's Communion or Mercurian magic. He could study a text on Mastering the spell (if it exists). If he takes a few levels of it, that adds to his casting total, and reduces botches.

I'm not trying to say this is easy, but I'm also saying it's not monumentally hard. It is beyond the reach of just about any beginning Magus certainly, but can be achieved reasonably, I think, by someone who makes this a priority. As before, the benefits though do not outwiegh the extreme cost, and thus tends to police itself. In answer to the original question; Do all magi have +5 Intelligence? I'd say no, and here's why. Another answer would be no, but many do, and some have the oppurtunity.

If you say so, but have you considered:

Lab Texts: If a Bonisagus invents it once, the lab text is potentially available to the whole Order. Is there no lab text public after 400 years of Order history?

Focus: With an appropriate Focus the required Arts are only something like 17, 16.

Creo: 17
Mentem: 16 (x2 = 32)
Int: +3
MT: +5
Aura: +3

Total: 60

With a vis rich or book rich Saga, scores of 17/16 might be common in relatively young magi. The commonality of Mercurian magic is also saga dependent, although you might find future published sources mention it more (who knows).

Mercurian magic reduces the vis requirements to only 6 pawns. A moderate Mastery would cut the botch pool to two or three.

One might imagine a Mystery cult demanding mental prefection, this might make the practice relatively common. But all this is saga dependent, I wouldn't wish to generalize too much.

Regards

- David W

"If a Bonisagus invents it once, the lab text is potentially available to the whole Order."

That IMO is extremely 'potentially'.

Kind regards,

Berengar

I have told the guys in my Saga that they can increase their stats to whatever level they can, assuming that the Vis and the spell is available. If they want to look for someone to do the job for them, then the added vis (or whatever the casting maga wants) and the time to potentially find someone to cast the spell, will make the increasing prohibative, but not impossible.

Bottom line is this. After RPG'ing for some 20 years, I have found that if the players really want something and it is not unreasonable (and IMO this is not unreasonable), I let them have it, paying the requisite costs along the way.

I would rather have a troupe of happy players who have wasted (IMO) a pile of vis then a troupe of unhappy players blowing up the countryside with all the vis they have garnered.

The relevant text on creo rituals with momentary durations that act in the same way as instant spells acted in 4th edition is found on page 112 of the fifth edition book.

"Ritual creo spells with momentary duration create things that last as long as any other thing of that type. The magic is gone in a moment and thus can not be dispelled. This also applies to ritual healing."

A permanent inteligence boost is not creating a thing, it is bringing a thing closer to perfection. It is also(clearly)not a ritual healing spell.

So while permanent inteligence boosting might be fine and dandy in your opinion (and you're doing an admirable job of convincing me of its harmlessness), it clearly is not the intent of the authors.

ArM5 only has one author, David Chart.

Wrt the bits a pieces he lifted from MP, HP articles and playtesters, I assume they will get a design credit. However, ArM5 had only one real author.

As far as David Chart's intent is concerned, he did/does intend these rituals to indefinitely increase Stats. We had a list exchange a few years back where I opposed D:Instant stat increase. I cited Essential Nature. He disagreed and pretty much wrote the spell as it appears in ArM5.

Gift of Reason
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind, Ritual
Permanently increases the target's Intelligence by 1 point, to no higher than 0.

(Base 30, +1 Touch)

Regards

- David W

Erik,

about the working of CrMe 35 Gift of Reason (R:Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind, Ritual) there is little room to argue.

But there is no argument that could be used to force you or any other SG to allow cheap commoditization and selling at fixed vis price of a CrMe 60 ritual.
The average caster of such a ritual would risk twilight at a botch, and quite a few warping points, too. The over 100 year old white raven with Mercurian Magic, a specialization in Mentem (in all older editions the adepts of Mercurian Magic were invariably specialists in Corpus, Vim and/or the elements) plus a Mastery skill for that ritual, however, need not exist at all in your campaign, and even if existing need not be approachable by your characters.

Kind regards,

Berengar

"Ritual creo spells with momentary duration create things that last as long as any other thing of that type. The magic is gone in a moment and thus can not be dispelled. This also applies to ritual healing."

“Gift of Reason
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind, Ritual
Permanently increases the target's Intelligence by 1 point, to no higher than 0.
(Base 30, +1 Touch)”

Great, an inconsistancy. I wish the playtesters would have caught this. Specifically me, I wish that would have seen it. (Not that it would have been resolved to my likeing but it very likely would have been resolved.)

I much as I am in the mood to find inconsistancies in ArM5, imo it's not an inconsistancy.

The first statement explains that Ritual D:Mom creations persist as mundane things. This does not exclude Ritual D:Mom perfections persisting as mundane.

In fact, I believe healing is a perfection and so it imo suggests any Ritual D:Mom perfection presists as mundane.

Regards

- David W

> "Ritual creo spells with momentary duration create things that last as long as
> any other thing of that type. The magic is gone in a moment and thus can not be
> dispelled. This also applies to ritual healing."
>
> QUOTE FROM GIFT OF REASON SPELL
>
>
> Great, an inconsistancy. I wish the playtesters would have caught this. Specifically
> me, I wish that would have seen it. (Not that it would have been resolved to my
> likeing but it very likely would have been resolved.)

I think they would have told you it was not an inconsistency. The spell has created an increased level of intelligence that can exist within a human being. Characteristics scores exist at whatever (human) level until they are decreased by 1) age, 2) outside influence including injury, spells, mystic influences, and, for intelligence, to much Punch and Judy shows (j/k on the last). The magically increased score exists for just as long, it just didn't exist before the spell.

I myself am having problems with the whole characteristic increase spells and other spell/magic tweaks including the ways the effects of the various techniques have been shuffled (though I do like the concept of using Perdo to remove certain characteristics). However, within all of that, after going through the rules a few times and wrapping your brain around it, Gift of Reason, etc, is consistent.

But David, if all perfections can be made instant why specify that healing rituals can be made instant?

If the idea was "the effects of ritual creo spells will persist beyond the duration of the spell." Why on earth do you write "Ritual creo spells with momentary duration create things that last as long as any other thing of that type. The magic is gone in a moment and thus can not be dispelled. This also applies to ritual healing." instead of "the effects of ritual creo spells will persist beyond the duration of the spell." ?

I know you believe that David C did a poor job with the description of the gift but this example sems to be a horse of a different color. Someone reading only the statement on page 112 under the description of momentary would not be inclined to believe that the gift of reason would be permanent as a ritual.

Of course that's all the further I'd like to discus the issue. lest we get into a "is to!" vs. "is not!" debacle.

>>>But David, if all perfections can be made instant why specify that healing rituals can be made instant?<<<

I would speculate that while writing the section he was focused on the most common cases and forgot the rest.

If the text is unclear to you then you should seek clarification from David Chart. All I can say is that I am as certain as I can be that David Chart meant GoR to be an 'Instant' (in old money) effect. But don't take my word for it, ask the horse's mouth.

Regards

- David W

I believe that Touch/Mom/Ind,Ritual is correct. Let's break it all down.

Range - who cares, you got the art scores, you get whatever range you can. Anything higher than sight seems to be a waste.

Duration - skipping it for now.

Target - again, who cares. You got the art scores, you can increase this. Target group for buffing grogs is sorta funny and really useful.

Duration - Any duration other that Momentary. Doesn't need to be a ritual, may cause a warping point gain at casting and may lead to more warping points if the subject is repeatedly buffed.

Momentary. If it is not a ritual, it is worthless since the you get smarter than back to normal in a flash. As a ritual, I must use vis. If I use vis, the effect lasts. Since it is a ritual of Momentary duration, the effect lasts forever (and more importantly, is not dispellable). If it was dispellable (and I do understand how high of Wind of Mundane Silence you would need), who would cast it? And the description of WoMS specifically stops it from dispelling Momentary duration spells.

Seems like it all fits to me. Again, if your players want to waste all that vis, let them. Personally, I would be making items and longevity potions with mine.

David Woods is right. All perfections, being natural, can be effected by Momentary Rituals and last for ever.

At least in the official books. Your saga may differ.

Maybe I don't have any munchkins in my game, but I don't understand why there is such hostility to permanent creo effects?

I guess my question is a philosophical one. Why is there a presumption in the rules that perdo is permanent without vis, but creo spells are only temporary unless augmented with vis.?