While working my way through ArM5 I found the following

ArM5 p.94: "The amount of raw vis that a magus may use in a single season is limited to twice his Magic Theory score. The magus cannot successfully integrate any more vis into a single project."
ArM5 p.101: "Longevity Ritual Vis Cost: 1 pawn for every five years of age (rounded up)"
So this together states clearly, that a longevity ritual can only be applied to a magus of X years by a maga with a magic theory of at least X/10, rounded up.

Now there is basically a single efficient way to study advanced Magic Theory, namely from books, and specifically from tractatus.
Here is a table listing the number of tractatus of average quality 7 a maga with a starting Magic Theory of 5 has to study to reach the score in Magic Theory needed to perform the focus of the longevity ritual.

Age of magus I Magic Theory needed I Number of Tractatus I Years of study
50 I 5 I 0 I 0
100 I 10 I 29 I 7,25
150 I 15 I 75 I 18,75
200 I 20 I 140 I 35

It follows that the maga who performs the longevity rituals not only has to invest a *lot* of her research time into reading Magic Theory, but also, that she needs a *lot* of contributors of tractatus on the subject. Given that by ArM5 p.165 you can only write a number of tractatus on Magic Theory equal to half your score, the 140 tractatus must have been written by some 20 to 40 people.

What follows? ArM5 longevity rituals assuring the survival of the older and more powerful members of the Order require one of the subsequent three assets:
(1) the cooperation of the greater part of a tribunal,
(2) a large group of tame scholars of Magic Theory without the Gift,
(3) an already established library with at least 140 tractatus on Magic Theory.
Those not participating in this asset will not have the needed resources for advanced study of Magic Theory, so their own longevity rituals cannot be replaced once their age exceeds some 120 to 150 years.

The maintenance and exploitation of each of these assets - under medieval conditions - requires a corporative organization of the core of a tribunal, under the control and protection of the greatest part of the most powerful and most interested magi. Magi not cooperating with this core will be considered as use- and shiftless at best, as dangerous at worst. And they also will not get old.

Was this intended, or will we see errata for the vis-limit in longevity rituals soon?

Kind regards,

Berengar

After reading the 5E rules and getting a chance to see how others are approaching character developement by reading the forums, the Good Teacher virtue really starts to shine. Any magus with this virtue should find books he writes in high demand.

I have recently approached my SG with an offer by my magus to trade a set of Tractatus he is writing in exchange for a longevity potion created by his Parens.

An overlooked aspect for the advancement of Magic Theory is exposure experience from labwork. My read, and character emphasis, will be towards inventing a large number of spells. The changes in spontaneous magic make learning spells more important in my opinion. Just by taking the time to invent a new spell, you will get 2 XP to spend and I will be putting 1 into Magic Theory each time. This is slow but steady while still allowing you to reap the primary benifit of learning a new spell.

Another opportunity would be for magi to spend an entire season (probably the season that Tribunal is held) discussing Magic Theory. This should generate a study total (maybe use the guidelines for learning a language thru practice) for everyone involved. (Oh, look a motivation for Magi to spend time together talking. Sounds like a plot hook to me.)

Gets around taking the time to write the books needed to trade to others for copies of their books.

And if you have Secondary Insight (or Elementalist, but SI is "better"), you can put that other experience point into the technique or form (or requisite) that were a part of the spell you just created and "WOOT" a bunch more xp in the Arts. Not efficient, but you will certainly know a number of spells. Same goes for creating charged items (no vis cost and you get that 2 xp per season).

Makes staying in the lab worthwhile. And keeps all the not-so-native creatures alive as vis sources.

I was going to suggest that preparation of a longevity potion could be done over the period of multiple seasons. I took the word "project" to be a typo. But then reading the portion of the preparation for enchantment on p. 97 where it reads "(i)t is possible for an item to have a vis capacity that makes it impossible for a magus top open it for enchantment, as no magus can use more than twice his Magic Theory score of pawns of vis in one season()." While that language isn't explicitly in the text on Longevity Rituals, it is specified in both Preparing Enchantments and Longevity Rituals that each is done in one season. I mention this for people who were thinking as I was.

So I'm wondering how the 150 year covenant's worked this. I understand they didn't go to 200, but this had to be a concern. 4th ed, it became a matter of your bonus from the longevity ritual couldn't keep up with age combined with the huge amounts of vis you had to use, one season or no. Now with the combo of 1) higher exp cost for MT with a lower increase to exp gained for various activities, 2) vis usage per season based on 2x(now more expensive)MT rather than MT (expensive or otherwise) + Vim, and 3) a new artificial requirement that longevity and opening enchantments be done in one season, the limitation seems much more strenuous.

This is even considering an average of experimentation once a year and using one xp point toward MT each time, that's still a lot of MT tractus reading just to perform the ritual.

"So I'm wondering how the 150 year covenant's worked this."
This isn't a concern in 4th edition, since in the lab you can use vis up to your Magic Theory + Vim score in ArM4.

I understand they didn't go to 200, but this had to be a concern. 4th ed, it became a matter of your bonus from the longevity ritual couldn't keep up with age combined with the huge amounts of vis you had to use, one season or no."
We didn't go to 200 for a single reason: lack of time in real life.
With regards to longevity potions, Post Coch was completely autonomous during all its 150 years, and would have stayed so until the last of its older magi had passed into final twilight.

Kind regards,

Berengar

"An overlooked aspect for the advancement of Magic Theory is exposure experience from labwork. My read, and character emphasis, will be towards inventing a large number of spells. The changes in spontaneous magic make learning spells more important in my opinion. Just by taking the time to invent a new spell, you will get 2 XP to spend and I will be putting 1 into Magic Theory each time."

This means your magus - if starting with Magic Theory 5 - will have to spend 200 seasons (50 years) in the lab inventing spells to raise it to even 10. I glossed over this and similar possibilities because they are ineffective for the maga in question: the one who performs the foci of the longevity rituals.

Kind regards,

Berengar

> Was this intended, or will we see errata for the vis-limit in
> longevity rituals soon?

The vis limit seems to be meant as a major ceiling on the power of magi, so I doubt there will be any change to this in the future.

I think Twilight is a more serious limit on the longevity of magi. The book suggests 2 Warping Points per year for a magus (which sounds a little heavy to me) so without bothering to look up the rules it sounds like Final Twilight will catch up with a PC before the middle of his second century. One only needs a Magic Theory of 12 or so before Twilight makes it a moot point.

The ArM5 rules make longevity specialities far more likely.

You will probably be able to create your own first LR. However, By the time you hit 65 you may have a problem making an effective ritual sans the vis issue. Not everyone will wish to study Creo or Corpus much.

The obvious solution is that you hire a longevity specialist. Magi with Longevity Foci will easily be able to create rituals that push life expectancy beyond expected Final Twilight.

By the time magi hit 65 they should have the resources to pay significant vis and/or provide services in kind. Many might simply get a good LR as their first LR. The specialist might extend credit to younger magi (with or without interest).

P.S. The longevity specialist would not have created his own LR either. No need for absurdly high MT scores.

Regards

- David W

"This means your magus - if starting with Magic Theory 5 - will have to spend 200 seasons (50 years) in the lab inventing spells to raise it to even 10. I glossed over this and similar possibilities because they are ineffective for the maga in question: the one who performs the foci of the longevity rituals"

My point was that those experience points are "free", you need not study from tractatus to get advancement in Magic Theory. Getting a 10 in Magic Theory and 200 spells is very worthwhile. Even with moderate quality Tractati (sp) of 10, you just saved yourself hunting down 20 books.

For my poor magus (who is entirely uninteresed in Corpus) he will need to trade for his LR each time he needs it.

>>>For my poor magus (who is entirely uninteresed in Corpus) he will need to trade for his LR each time he needs it.<<<

Barring a really bad roll, this could only be once.

I guess a 130 year magus who hits a crisis is in big trouble.

However, it is arguable that Puissant Ability (Magic Theory) helps in this:

"You are particularly adept with one Ability, and get +2 to all totals which include it."

The formula for vis use is:

"Vis Limit: Magic Theory x 2 pawns per season"

If you call this a total, Bonisagus magi and others can use 2 more pawns than other magi with the same MT score. This still leaves a 130 year magus fairly screwed. A Bonisagus with a MT of 12 will probably be rare, although perhaps not unknown.

Personally I would simply drop the need for the vis to be recalulated when re-performing a LR.

Regards

- David W

Hi Galerius,

thanks a lot for the info.

"The vis limit seems to be meant as a major ceiling on the power of magi, so I doubt there will be any change to this in the future."

That settles it, then, as you were involved in these discussions.

This means, that there is in the core rules a quite coercive motivation especially for the oldest and most powerful magi to cooperate over covenant borders: something which I never found in earlier editions.

Lets see in detail:

"I think Twilight is a more serious limit on the longevity of magi. The book suggests 2 Warping Points per year for a magus (which sounds a little heavy to me) so without bothering to look up the rules it sounds like Final Twilight will catch up with a PC before the middle of his second century."

I looked into likely warping points per year a few days ago, ArM5 saying only "A typical magus also gains an average of two Warping Points per year". I think these 2 points per year for player character advancement just after apprenticeship are more than fair. But for NPCs who do not go on adventures once a year it is probably a little too much - as you also appear to feel.

To begin with, there is clearly one warping point per year for the longevity ritual in effect.

Then we have to give room for warping due to inevitable botches and twilight. Reusing the setup for the Post Coch simulation (5 big botch chances per decade: zero already assumed, and - campaign duration dependent - 3 to 5 botch dice plus/minus virtues/flaws), this means an average of 0.2325 (1st 50 years) to 0.575 (3rd 50 years) more warping points per year, obviously assuming no virtues or flaws affecting botch dice.
However, with a Cautious Sorcerer minor virtue or a Gold Cord 3 to the familiar, which - because true survival traits - should be more common with elder than with young magi, we get only from 0.05 (1st 50 years) to 0.2325 (3rd 50 years) per year instead. This in particular gives an idea of the possible span of botch related warping points.

Finally we have to allow for exposure to powerful mystical effects, e. g. 6+ magnitude attacks passing the Parma and strong healing magic, which are very hard to generalize.

This hints that the number of warping points per year might vary around somewhat below 2, but that there should at least be many magi with less average warping per year. So magi should not just all pass into final twilight before their 140th birthday: the clever, the cautious and the lucky will stay on for longer. And some of these will call the shots at the tribunal.

The longevity rituals of many, but especially those of the oldest magi, will collapse sooner or later because of a 'result 13' of the Aging Table (p.170). Even if the overall aging modifier (from longevity ritual, living conditions and Bronze Cord) is only below [age/10]+6, there is every 2nd decade a chance of at least some 1.1% per year that the potion will have to be replaced due to an aging crisis: enough to have a spectacular aging crisis every few years in the average tribunal, even with a competent specialist providing longevity potions.
Already the chance - or at least the story - of such a crisis might motivate many old and powerful magi to look for improvement of a working longevity ritual, too.
And these needy magi then need a specialist with a really high Magic Theory, which cannot be trained up unless several covenants cooperate.

Kind regards,

Berengar

I do agree the rules for longevity rituals strongly indicate some level of cooperation among magi. It's not clear that every senior magus will be all that interested in making his own longevity potion so only the longevity specialists really need a huge number of tractatus.

The way I see it, it should be easy to accumulate them. Just ask, as part of the price of the ritual, for several original tractatus on Magic Theory from each client.

It is not just longevity rituals that create compelling reasons to want tractatus, though. Think for a moment of the Order's most powerful warrior-magi (Flambeau Archmages) and how badly they want to get their Parma Magica skill up to 12.

I believe the real quality of a covenant library lies not in having high-level summae, but in having vast collections of rare tractatus.

Given four hundred years of Order history, MT tracts may be ten a pawn...

Regards

- David W

"The way I see it, it should be easy to accumulate them. Just ask, as part of the price of the ritual, for several original tractatus on Magic Theory from each client."

This works indeed nicely, once it is assured that those accumulating tractatus are sufficiently protected, and also made available and finally passed to an appointed successor of the current resident longevity ritual specialist. That is the purpose of the 'corporative structure' I hinted at before.

Kind regards,

Berengar

OK, just experimented with both the aging rolls, Longevity Rituals, and the expanded character creation rules past apprenticeship.

I made a character devoted to Longevity Rituals, and geared for it. A Bonisagus magus, I just piled on the modifiers; Affinity (Magic Theory, Creo, Corpus), Puissant (Magic Theory, Creo, Corpus) Minor Magic Focus (Longevity Rituals), Inventive Genius, and of course he had a specialty for his Magic Theory of Longevity Rituals. I started him at age 23 (started Apprentice at 8), then aged him to 34. At 35 he opened his Talisman, and in the Fall made his Longevity Ritual. It was +79, using 7 extra Pawns of Vis (the max of extra Vis he could throw into it). This gave him a -15 on his aging rolls with the addition of another 2 for the Summer Covenant I placed him in. I didn't bother spending experience for his activities from age 35+, just kept rolling to see where he'd be at when he made his next Ritual. He only added 4 to his apparent age, and at 92 or so, added one Age point (and Decrepitude point) to his Perception. At 97, due to a bad dice roll (at this point my aging roll was still overall -7) I rolled a 1 and then a 10, giving him exactly 13, for an aging crisis. He survived it automatically, and now in the Spring of 1294 he needs to contemplate his next Ritual. I also have a Warping score of 7, with 8 Warping points, and a Decrepitude of 1, with no points left over. I also have potentially 1860 XP to spend, assuming he only studied. Going by the Guidelines he should have a minimum of 29 in both Creo and Corpus, and odds are a bit more, due to his Affinity. Let's go with 30 (33 with Puissant Arts) in each. His Magic Theory should be at least 10 (13 for the Ritual's purposes). His next Lab Total (without extra Vis) should be about 120 (5+3+3+33+33+30+13), providing a bonus of 24 to his aging rolls, for a total new aging roll bonus of +16, which is one point HIGHER than his original Longevity Ritual made 62 years earlier. And he hasn't even taken advantage of other bonuses he might try to get (just 1 more pushes it up a notch), like using an apprentice for help, or throwing in extra vis. It would cost 20 pawns of Vis to make, so his Magic Theory just makes it, and if I spent the xp right prior to this, he could make that even easier.

He'd be likely to go the distance and fade away in Twilight rather than age to death. I was very impressed with the new aging rules, now that I've tested it.

Nice example to verify the aging rules with the guidelines from p.32, qcifer.

How would you think such a truely focused - rare, but still plausible - specialist would be integrated into his tribunal? As a free practitioner protected by his covenant, but otherwise looking after his own training and selling his abilities to the highest bidder? Or as an appointed official, in whose well-being (e. g. protection from wizard's war), further studies (especially in Magic Theory) and apprentices (to make sure his focus survives) most of the tribunal takes special interest?

Kind regards,

Berengar

Sorry for the delay, we were crazy busy at work today, where I normally post, and thanks for the words Berengar.

"How would you think such a truely focused - rare, but still plausible - specialist would be integrated into his tribunal?"

Well, in this case it's a good thing the Order is somewhat open minded. This guy is hideous. -2 Presence, the Blatant Gift, and Disfigured, for an overall -11 on those without an active Parma. Plus he has a local Reputation of 2 for being some kind of monster. He's also Driven to live forever as a major flaw. However, the fact that after his apprenticeship he was able to pull off a Longevity Ritual of (5+8+3+3+13+13+10) 55, he was able to make plenty of friends among Magi that were looking for a quick, but effective longevity potion.

"As a free practitioner protected by his covenant, but otherwise looking after his own training and selling his abilities to the highest bidder?"

He's in a unique position within his own House. As a Bonisagus he's enjoined to reveal everything he discovers, but Longevity Rituals are specific to the recipient, and useless to others, sharing doesn't help. He'd get courted often for his skills, charging half again the Vis used in making the ritual for his customer (he'd make 15 pawns of vis on a 10 pawn Ritual). He of course needs plenty of time to train, and immediately after apprenticeship he trained heavily until he needed to make his own longevity ritual. Secure in his own mind against the ravages of time, he'd be more than happy to provide his services traveling around the Tribunal, and even to other Tribunals.

"Or as an appointed official, in whose well-being (e. g. protection from wizard's war)"

It's unlikely that he'd gain official standing, but it's possible, perhaps he could get assigned an official task by the Praeco. I think that many very powerful and old wizards would likely be very upset at any that would kill the goose that laid the golden eggs. So most likely he'd enjoy quiet respect, and a welcome seat at most tables for high ranking wizards, even archmagi.

"further studies (especially in Magic Theory)"

He'd definitely need to study a lot to keep up his craft, inevitably there's the laws of diminishing returns, and he'd likely have to strike out in different routes of original research. It's likely he'd be sent tracti by appreciative customers, or future customers. After all, a Tracti is easy to write for a Magus, an effective Longevity Ritual for an old Magus isn't easy to come by.

"and apprentices (to make sure his focus survives)"

He's likely to have his pick of apprentices I think, both for his focus, and his House. The benefit an apprentice could provide him would be very appreciated.

"most of the tribunal takes special interest?"

I think he'd enjoy some celebrity status, and considering how homely he is, he'd welcome it, he's only human. He'd enjoy older magi trying to curry his favor for a powerful Longevity Ritual.

But he is so focused he'd not likely to be a very fun character to play, he's best as an NPC, but I could see plenty of story possibilities with him.

I would contend that some standing of this specialist is even very likely. While pretty monstrous and not too social, he will be talk of the tribunal among elder magi regularly, and - as you pointed out - the benefits of official recognition would suit him nicely and make his life a lot easier.
Also the old magi depending on him would sleep much better if they always knew where he was (especially far far away from any superstitious yokels with pitchforks, crosses and an attitude), and what he was doing: even if that meant setting up an official Creo Corpus specialized lab (I reckon we will get the ArM5-rules for this sooner or later) and a library associated with it in a hidden corner of Durenmar, lassoing apprentices and delivering them nicely tied to him, and giving out special soma-rations to attending grogs.

Kind regards,

Berengar

I kind of like that special relationship you're talking about, with older magi. I could just see the encounter when a young Tremere hothead who wants to have a Wizard's War against the Longevity Ritual specialist.

Outside the Sancta of Fabrica Diabolica; "Devilish Devices", the Arch Magus and Hoplite of House Verditius, the young Tremere Siridius Mortuus strides forward to cleanse himself of the indignities he endured at Tribunal, when the hideous Bonisagus mocked him and his own significant Longevity Ritual which he had devised. He bears more than a Rook of Vis, as well as knots of twine that will heal him when undone, until a more permanent remedy was used. He had studied new spells of destruction, as well as the circumstances of the lab rat's birth, which was easily found in Mundane accounts. He had no Arcane connection, and no magi were willing to provide him one with all of the work he'd done for them, but no matter, he doubted that the lab rat had made much use to pratice his Founder's invention of the Parma. He would be requited tonight!

Siridius strides boldly to the stone edifice where he has been held up, a lonely sanctum in a middling Aura, and prepares to announce his presence with authority, under the light of the Full Moon. A voice calls out to him from around the side of the house.

"Ho there! Salvete Sodalis." walking around the side is the small and slightly rotund form of one of the more dreaded of Hoplites in the Order, all the more so because he is from the often overlooked House of Verditius. The devices are innocuous at best. A wand in his belt, rings on his fingers, a charm around his neck, he looks more like a wealthy merchant fat from crusader wealth than a puissant Magus and creator of powerful relics. Sirridius is taken aback, what was he doing here?

"Salvete Sodalis." murmurs Sirridius, and approaches with deference to the Archmagus to kiss his cheek. The Archmagus allows this, delighting at how the tall Tremere must stoop to do so.

"A fine night is it not? A busy night for some eh?" inquires Fabrica. "You're Sirridius are you not? The filius of Tarchevski the Mountainslayer?" Sirridius nods. "Far from your home it looks."

"Yes, Magister Fabrica. I have urgent and pressing business, that can only be done by this moon. If you know what I mean?" Sirridius arches his eyebrow to give a hint. His master and other wizards were more adept at subtlety than he.

"I surely do. I presume then you have sent the proper...invitation?"

"Yes, I have a copy with me..." began Siridius as he reached into his robes. Perhaps this Archwizard was watching his affairs? Could he claim some greater victory because Fabrica witnessed it? Fabrica waved him off so as not to bother fishing out the note. He pulled a rather crumpled and abused sheet of vellum, that apparently had been used again as a piece of scrap paper, it looked like the writing of a list of needed mundane supplies was on it, even though the front was clearly marked with his symbol, and its intentions and portents even clearer!

"So you sent this?" said Fabrica as he opened it up and read from it. Siridius could plainly see that the page was used to record tools that the local gung farmer needed to clean the latrines. He pursed his lips. "You get right to the point don't you? Yes. Very direct, and rather scathing too. Well I won't get in your way, you are obviously very busy." Fabrica made a point to actually step back.

"Many thanks Archmagus." murmured Sirridius as he began to regather his concentration as he approached the door. He was about to call upon his Arts to examine the door, when Fabrica spoke again.

"Sorry to interupt Sodalis, but what are you doing?"

Sirridius stopped his spell with a frustrated exhalation. "My sources have told me that my enemy resides within."

"Really? He's inside MY sancta?"

Sirridius's blood went absolutely cold at that, and icy sweat trickled down his back. "You see the marks don't you? Plainly that is the mark of a Sanctum." continued Fabrica.

"Parden me Master? This...is...your sancta?" stammered Siridius.

"Indeed. I have need of a more powerful Longevity Ritual as I'm getting on in years, so I came here to obtain the best one I may. As I had nowhere else to stay, he allowed me to make this my sanctum. Who would deny an Archmagus such a courtesy right?"

"But...but..."

"You know that the Code allows any price to be taxed from those that invade a Sanctum don't you?" asked Fabrica, one thumb stroking the ring on his right index finger. "You also know that scrying or attempting to scry on a magus is a high crime? Which of course includes scrying on their effects? Did you know that the Code has upheld eight times since the Order's creation, the right of a Magus to destroy another magus who merely approached a sanctum, LOOKING like they were about to violate it? Do you have any doubts that they would uphold it a ninth time?"

"I...I assure you Master Fabrica, I had no idea that you were present, or that this was where your sanctum was. I-I would never cross you in such a flagrant violation of the Code and your dignity Master!" Siridius was in imminent danger of actually soiling himself.

Fabrica's face darkened, and his frown deepened into one of deadly seriousness, his right hand began to raise, and it seemed a baleful green halo surrounded it, eminating from the cat's eye emerald ring on his fore finger. Then, when Siridius was sure that his doom was descending upon him, Fabrica laughed uproariously and clapped him hard on the back.

"You should have seen your face! Priceless I tell you!" laughed Fabrica patting him again on the back, ignoring the Hermetic taboo of actually touching another magus uninvited. "I'm afraid though that your business will have to wait another night. He's quite busy in there, and I'm in need of his labor. Perhaps when he's finished."

Siridius laughed rather hysterically himself when he realized he hadn't been reduced to a pile of smoldering sludge and ash. "Ha! Um...when is he supposed to be finished Master?" he finally managed to ask.

"Not for two moons I suppose, at least. He just started a little bit ago."

"But-but, that's past the appointed time..."

"Yes well, that's how these things go you know? Sometimes things get in the way, not much can be done about it. Perhaps another time? Oh wait...unless he further insults you, I don't think you'd have any cause that the Code would support. Oh well, perhaps you should just accept the apology he offered at the Tribunal that offended you."

"I...don't suppose you'd accept a challenge of Certamen to allow me in would you?" asked Siridius. He doubted he could win, but you never know, he possesed great skill in that contest.

"Go ahead an...[Message truncated]