"I think you're right, the "Magic Realm" book seems like a logical place to cover this." I suspect covering/updating the various Hedge Magic traditions in a single book would be a big ask, particularly as the culturally specific ones would be out of context (ie. sahirs, gruagrach etc.) unless presented as examples. "I didn't really like the ArM4 "Hedge Magic" supplement. There were not enough interesting ideas in it. Throughout ArM4, hedge wizards were all over the map in terms of their power level - it would be good if ArM5 were to standardize and rigorously playtest rules for hedgies. Who knows, maybe down the road there will be a whole Hedge Magic book. I could certainly go for that." I'm of mixed feelings about it too. I like NM and some of the ideas raised by cunning-folk (and these seem to be in paradigm for medieval magic at least) but have always been dubious about the Summoner and the Ascetic. It also lacked any real advice about creating HMs for a Saga, completely neglecting "Lion of the North" (admittedly an ArM3 product). As to power level, part of this stems from inconsistencies inherent in the ArM4 line's canon due to multiple authorship of key supplements. Some HM appear to be irrevocably broken eg. the volkhvy from the Dragon & the Bear are just insanely abusable even if interesting in concept( I mean, triple the Discipline score and then add other bonuses, whoa). Others suffer from poor mechanics or conception. In ArM4 Hermetic magi were defined as the most powerful (although it was hinted that the structure of Hermetic theory potentially limited magi from achieving their greatest potential in a specialist area). In ArM5 this has been more clearly codified and there David Chart appears to have developed a clearer vision of the line in the later stages of ArM4 (see Niall's comments regarding sahirs at http://www.geocities.com/sanctumhr/). This is a pity, as I think it makes conceptualizing the Founders more difficult (see related my thread here: http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=atlasgames&msg=474.1), not to mention pre-Hermetic Diedne or Bjornaer. A clear vision of the line is a good thing IMO, but I wish (and I suspect there are other also) that would like to have some non-Hermetic magi that can challenge the Order, if only in their field of expertise. Playtesting is probably the key - I think the 150 year sample covenant (Post Coch) gives a clear idea of what works and doesn't work when you advance a cunning-folk over a Saga. Basically hedge-magicians fitted into 3 categories across the ArM4 supplements (apologies to David Woods, who I think posted this earlier): 1) Companion Level These are HM with a few (usually 1 major and 1 or 2 Minor Virtues) Supernatural Abilities, paid for out of the normal 10 point V&F pool for companion characters. Eg. the Witch in ArM5 or say a troubadour/bard character who has Enchanting Music and perhaps Secon Sight. 2) 'Standard" Mystic Companion These are HM with 10 free points of magical/other Virtues as suggested in the ArM4 Hedge Magic supplement. They are meant to occupy either a player's companion or magus slot, at the Troupe's discretion. Examples would be Summoners, Ascetics, Necromancers (from Kaballah: Mythic Judaism), Wind Wizards (Ultima Thule), Natural Magicians (and possibly Raqi from Blood & Sand) as well as all the iterations of culturally specific "local" cunning-folk found throughout the later Tribunal books. Vitkir and their rune magic (not a favoiurite of mine) probably also fit in here. 3) "Magus"- level Mystic Companions (or should that be "Mythic" companions?) The distinction between these and category 2 is somewhat difficult to classify. Most have greater than 10 points of free Virtues worth of Supernatural Abilities udner ArM4. Most of these had some form of inherent "general" Magic Resistance or could easily obtain one. Nearly all had quite specific cultural and in-game mechanic limitations with often quite focussed magical abilities. Good examples of this are gruagrachan, trollsynir, galdramen and sahirs. Kaballists and some Natural Magicians (especially the Blood & Sand variant, the raqi) probably could fall into this category as well. Faerie Companions (and Jinn) which use very Might based similar rules) are a special case almost but probably fit here IMO. 4) "Failed Apprentice" / Damaged Gift individuals My experience with these have been limited, although there was an interesting Hermes Portal article about them a while back which I enjoyed and found interesting. This 3rd category of HM has been most affected by ArM5 canon (particularly the always implied but now "enforced" superiority of Parma Magica). I'd be particularly interested in how this category of "Hedgies" is handled under ArM5, particularly in any book on the Magic Realm, but also in the Mysteries: Revised, which appears slated for this coming year. Jarkman
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