OK, so now I have ArM5/Calebais and I am raring to go...

Looking through the 2005 product schedule for the new line: a Rhine Tribunal book (hmmm, sounds good), a Dominion "Realm" Book (hmm.. whatever), a "House" book on True Lineages (Bonisagus, Guernicus, Mercere and Tremere)(yeah!) ...

What, no update on Hedge Magic traditions! (At least no obvious "place" for them in any of the upcoming books for at least 12 months unless they sneak Natural Magi into the Dominion book - unlikely IMO). Perhaps in an upcoming "Magic Realm" book?

I like hedge magic (yeah, I know it's a bit odd and all). I've never really thought they were overpowered, given the much higher XP needed to raise Abilities when compared with Arts (this is particularly so under ArM5).

So what about converting Natural Magi to ArM5?

Initial points to consider (I'm a bit rusty):

* Alchemy has disappeared from the corebook - possibly Craft: Alchemy or Profession: Alchemist might do in a pinch but I would've thought Alchemy would be a Supernatural Ability requiring at least a corresponding Minor Virtue

* "Ceremonial Magic" can be used to augment spontaneous magic (ArM5, p83):

"A maga may spend fifteen minutes for every magnitude of the spell performing rituals to invoke the powers of natural magic. As a result, she may add her scores in Artes Liberales and Philosophiae to her casting score."

Hmm, sounds like a promising start - perhaps Spellcrafting could now use Artes Liberales instead of Alchemy, but what about Enchantment and other lab activities.

* Magic Theory is now core to maximum vis used for magi in activities, rather than MT + Vim as previously IIRC - NM previously used Int + Alchemy + Philosophiae. Perhaps a reduction then to reflect the change in power levels under ArM5?

" The Gift and its interaction with Magic Theory has been more clearly defined - it suggests that most if not all hedge wizards are unGifted (although they may have Offensive to Animals and Magical Air flaws).

Any thoughts?

Jarkman

Hmm, I guess no one on the forum cares for Hedge Magicians...

Jarkman

I think you're right, the "Magic Realm" book seems like a logical place to cover this. I think it's been officially said there will be four Realm books but we don't know which will be next after Divine.

I didn't really like the ArM4 "Hedge Magic" supplement. There were not enough interesting ideas in it. Throughout ArM4, hedge wizards were all over the map in terms of their power level - it would be good if ArM5 were to standardize and rigorously playtest rules for hedgies.

Who knows, maybe down the road there will be a whole Hedge Magic book. I could certainly go for that.

"I think you're right, the "Magic Realm" book seems like a logical place to cover this."

I suspect covering/updating the various Hedge Magic traditions in a single book would be a big ask, particularly as the culturally specific ones would be out of context (ie. sahirs, gruagrach etc.) unless presented as examples.

"I didn't really like the ArM4 "Hedge Magic" supplement. There were not enough interesting ideas in it. Throughout ArM4, hedge wizards were all over the map in terms of their power level - it would be good if ArM5 were to standardize and rigorously playtest rules for hedgies. Who knows, maybe down the road there will be a whole Hedge Magic book. I could certainly go for that."

I'm of mixed feelings about it too. I like NM and some of the ideas raised by cunning-folk (and these seem to be in paradigm for medieval magic at least) but have always been dubious about the Summoner and the Ascetic. It also lacked any real advice about creating HMs for a Saga, completely neglecting "Lion of the North" (admittedly an ArM3 product).

As to power level, part of this stems from inconsistencies inherent in the ArM4 line's canon due to multiple authorship of key supplements. Some HM appear to be irrevocably broken eg. the volkhvy from the Dragon & the Bear are just insanely abusable even if interesting in concept( I mean, triple the Discipline score and then add other bonuses, whoa). Others suffer from poor mechanics or conception.

In ArM4 Hermetic magi were defined as the most powerful (although it was hinted that the structure of Hermetic theory potentially limited magi from achieving their greatest potential in a specialist area). In ArM5 this has been more clearly codified and there David Chart appears to have developed a clearer vision of the line in the later stages of ArM4 (see Niall's comments regarding sahirs at http://www.geocities.com/sanctumhr/).

This is a pity, as I think it makes conceptualizing the Founders more difficult (see related my thread here: http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=atlasgames&msg=474.1), not to mention pre-Hermetic Diedne or Bjornaer.

A clear vision of the line is a good thing IMO, but I wish (and I suspect there are other also) that would like to have some non-Hermetic magi that can challenge the Order, if only in their field of expertise. Playtesting is probably the key - I think the 150 year sample covenant (Post Coch) gives a clear idea of what works and doesn't work when you advance a cunning-folk over a Saga.

Basically hedge-magicians fitted into 3 categories across the ArM4 supplements (apologies to David Woods, who I think posted this earlier):

1) Companion Level

These are HM with a few (usually 1 major and 1 or 2 Minor Virtues) Supernatural Abilities, paid for out of the normal 10 point V&F pool for companion characters. Eg. the Witch in ArM5 or say a troubadour/bard character who has Enchanting Music and perhaps Secon Sight.

2) 'Standard" Mystic Companion

These are HM with 10 free points of magical/other Virtues as suggested in the ArM4 Hedge Magic supplement. They are meant to occupy either a player's companion or magus slot, at the Troupe's discretion.

Examples would be Summoners, Ascetics, Necromancers (from Kaballah: Mythic Judaism), Wind Wizards (Ultima Thule), Natural Magicians (and possibly Raqi from Blood & Sand) as well as all the iterations of culturally specific "local" cunning-folk found throughout the later Tribunal books. Vitkir and their rune magic (not a favoiurite of mine) probably also fit in here.

3) "Magus"- level Mystic Companions (or should that be "Mythic" companions?)

The distinction between these and category 2 is somewhat difficult to classify. Most have greater than 10 points of free Virtues worth of Supernatural Abilities udner ArM4. Most of these had some form of inherent "general" Magic Resistance or could easily obtain one.

Nearly all had quite specific cultural and in-game mechanic limitations with often quite focussed magical abilities. Good examples of this are gruagrachan, trollsynir, galdramen and sahirs. Kaballists and some Natural Magicians (especially the Blood & Sand variant, the raqi) probably could fall into this category as well.

Faerie Companions (and Jinn) which use very Might based similar rules) are a special case almost but probably fit here IMO.

4) "Failed Apprentice" / Damaged Gift individuals

My experience with these have been limited, although there was an interesting Hermes Portal article about them a while back which I enjoyed and found interesting.

This 3rd category of HM has been most affected by ArM5 canon (particularly the always implied but now "enforced" superiority of Parma Magica).

I'd be particularly interested in how this category of "Hedgies" is handled under ArM5, particularly in any book on the Magic Realm, but also in the Mysteries: Revised, which appears slated for this coming year.

Jarkman

"I like hedge magic (yeah, I know it's a bit odd and all). I've never really thought they were overpowered, given the much higher XP needed to raise Abilities when compared with Arts (this is particularly so under ArM5)."

What do you mean?

hedge wizards were really really weak, boring and unplayable.

They had abilities that could be useful but so weak I would rather play a companion.

???

Hmm, what about:

Gruagach from ArM3 LotN
Trollsynir and Galdramen from ArM4 LoFaI
Sahir from Blood & Sand

Not to mention the incredibly broken volkhvy from Dragon and the Bear.

All of these can challenge Hermetic magi in their specialist areas.

Regards,

Jarkman

Not at all, Hedge magicians are great, every village should have one.

The problem with ArM 5th there is so much missing from 5th ArM.

Particulary missed, IMHO are: 'Wizards Grimoire' and 'Mysteries'.

Obviously this is because 5th edition is so new, and the team at Atlas have not had time to bring out new supplements yet.

I do like many of the 4th (and 3rd) edition supplements, and shall miss them, unless the group I am with can come to a consensus as to how to convert them to 5th.

Maybe someone should set up a web site for 5th Ed translations of non-4th Ed supplements.

On Alchemy, there were really a lot of different types of it in 4th ed - the base one in the main book, the Alchemy of the Hedge Wizards, the Hermetic Alchemy in Mysteries just to name 3. I wouldn't be surprised to see Hermetic Alchemy show up again in the Revised Mysteries book, and have that being the one type of specialized alchemy around.

It can also be assumed that any mage already has some basics in Alchemy as they can make potions as a lab project (notably, a longevity potion). You should be able to take a minor magical focus in Alchemy which would work when making potions and the like....this would be in line with the recommendation in the ArM4 Myteries made for turning the ArM4 main book's alchemy into an affinity. To really get into Alchemy though, you'd probably have to study it as a Mystery, which will give you more than what you already can as a 'typical' Hermetic Magus.

I think you'll need to have the Hermetic Alchemy abilities come out in Mysteries first before being able to make a Natural Philosopher. It would make sense for them to function as a mystery cult with their alchemical studies as well as for hermetic cults using alchemy. Having one standard alchemy form would make more sense than trying to figure out a hodgepodge of different types of alchemy and getting them to work together. (The same thing might apply to Summoners, the arabic Summoning tradition and Hermetic Theurgy, but we'll probably know more once Mysteries comes out).