I'm interested in how others envision the Founders under the new ArM5 canon. I like the idea of pre-Hermetic and non-Hermetic traditions in an Ars game and the potential of playing in an earlier era when such magic was more commomplace.

Under ArM4, I seemed to conceive them as a mix of theurgists, eg. Tytalus, Tremere, Merinitia (similar to the Galdramen from LoFaI or alternatively the Sahir tradition from Blood & Sand) and natural magicians/alchemists, eg. Guernicus, Mercere, Bonisagus, Verditius (possibly even similar to Niall's raqi from Blood & Sand) with some others whose traditions were primarily a collection of powerful Supernatural Abilities and talents, eg. Bjornaer, Diedne, Flambeau. 9I've always thought of Flambeau as having a continental equivalent of the trollsynir's "Jotun Affinity with Fire" ability, ramped up to 30 or so). I also found David Chart's article on Mercurian magic in one of the Hermes Portals an interesting take on things, particularly when you consider the Spell Mastery rules he proposed.

ArM5 brings with it a few notable changes that affect my vision of this, if you consider the two major Breakthroughs of Bonisagus, combined with the natural assumption that all the Founders were probably Gifted and hence able to learn Hermetic Magic (ie. Arts, except maybe Verditius).

1)The Parma Magica really is a "big thing" - p85 "Magic Resistance" spells this out:

"Humans can gain general magical resistance from three sources: the Divine, the Infernal, and Hermetic magic. No other magical or faerie powers are able to provide general magic resistance to humans, but creatures with a Might score have Magic Resistance equal to their Might (see page 191)."

Ok, so there goes cunning folk, baal shem, galdraman & natural magician charms/amulets/items that provide magic resistance. Likewise an entity's ability to grant magic resistance to a summoner/necromancer/sahir seems to have gone out the window. Gruagrach/trollsynir seem to have also been given the boot - no Might, therefore no MR.

The only non-Hermetic sources of MR I can find in ArM5 for humans without a Might score is Divine in origin: either possess True Faith (ArM5, p189: MR = 10 x faith points) or the Major General Virtue "Guardian Angel" (ArM5, p43) which reads:

"Your guardian angel can also help you in two ways ... Second, he can grant you a Magic Resistance of 15. This magic resistance is not compatible with a magus's Parma Magica, or magic resistance from most other sources, but it does add to the magic resistance resulting from Faith Points (see page 189). The angel only grants you these bonuses if you are acting in accordance with God's will."

Hmmm, I can't see Flambeau or Tytalus (both respectable combat mages before learning arma) with either of these forms, particularly given the "in accordance with God's will" caveat. There's a vague reference to "most other sources" - what sources apart from the already excluded Hermetic Parma/Arts and the Infernal, which is obviously incompatible with the Divine under paradigm.

That leaves only the Infernal as a source for MR for all the Founders. Damn.

Art modifiers? Nope - the canon implies strongly that Arts as known in the Order were part of Bonisgaus' breakthrough, therefore none of the FOunders would be getting a MR vs any particular Form or Technique.

2) Arts are a "big thing" in ArM5 - needing 5x less XP to increase than an Ability is similar to previous editions but the implication of a maximum Ability cap by age (ArM5, p31) even if it applies only during character creation seems to reinforce the divide.

The concept of the founders having exceptional magical powers based on Abilities (ie 5XP per pyramid point), rather than Arts which didn't exist until after Bonisagus taught them (1 XP per pyramid point) seems to be difficult to sustain under this. Perhaps they could convert their latent Abilities into Arts directly otherwise, their ability to pass on Hermetic teaching is quite limited:

Consider the following quickly rigged up hypothetical: Bonisagus attempts to teach Trianoma the Hermetic Arts as his "apprentice" according to the ArM5 rules (p106-107). She probably already knows Latin or another applciable language, Artes Liberales, Philosophiae, Magic Lore and perhaps even Penetration and Finesse. She has at least one (by definition and paradigm) non-Hermetic Supernatural Ability which is probably reflected by possessing a Major Virtue. She's probably as good a student as he's going to get, he teaches her Parma Magica easily enough and she goes out and convinces the other Founders to contribute to Bonisagus' research under cover of her Magical Shield.

Bonisagus spends years learning all he can from the other Founders and developing Hermetic magic to the point where he can teach it to others.

Bonisagus would normally require one season and Trianoma can learn all 15 Arts at 0, but Trianoma has at least one preexisting non-Hermetic Supernatural Ability, probably reflected by a Major Virtue in "Trianoma's Magic" or whatever. This means Bonisagus needs to have an In Vi lab total of at least 30 (if the Virtue has no associated Ability) or 5x the Ability score. Let's be generous and say the Virtue has no associated Ability.

So Bonisagus might have Int +5 (he's a smart chap and has Great Intelligence x2). He has spent the last 10 years (~300XP) since inventing the Parma developing his Magic Theory score to 10 (275XP) with a specialisation in teaching (this is a simplification - he probably experimented etc. and has an Affinity with Magic Theory as well as possibly other applicable Virtues). He probably waited until he has at least 5 in all the relevant Art scores (225 XP) he has learnt from the other Founders, so as to avoid imparting his first apprentice with any Deficiencies. The teaching takes place in the heart of the Balck Forest, with a generous aura of +9.

His Lab total for teaching her is then: Te + Fo + Int + Magic Theory + aura or 35

He succeeds in opening all 15 Arts but is not able to retain her existing Supernatural Ability which is lost. Trianoma now has a score of 0 in all 15 Arts, a decent Parma Magical but only fledgling magical abilities and no spells. She can probably cast a few level 5-10 spontaneous spells by using ceremonial magic (Artes Liberales & Philosophiae at a decent level).

So do all the other Founders line up to learn Hermetic Magic?

Probably no. However they might get their apprentices to learn.

Any comments?

Jarkman

There's just so much you're talking about that I can't the energy to talk about it all. On one area though:

With regard to the clause on p. 191 you quote, consider the fact that what it has to say about resistance provided by Faeire and non-Hermetic magic refers to "general" magic resistance. The exact meaning is unceratin, but clearly Aegis of the Hearth predates Hermetic magic. I'd also venture that Diedne magi were able to cast spontaneous magic wards prior to joining the hermetic. The key of course is that most of these would be lower bang for buck than knowing parma + hermetic form. Also, for the likes of Flambeua, active defenses, say turning a magical fire attack back were probably very likely.

At any rate, I'm of the mind that either 1) that particular sentence was very loosely written and may not have been meant to be so restrictive on magic and faerie protection, or 2) Atlas has something fairly specific in mind that should be coming up in the future. I'm hoping for the former, because I can't think of how I'd like the latter, but wait and see.

All of the above aside, across all editions (well I know mainly 3d-5th), it is quite clear that magical protection from magic was significantly improved by the advent of the parma. My impression has been that specialist had equivalent protections from forms, or may have, but they just weren't considered forms back then (ie. Flambeau and fire).

A few passing remarks:

"Likewise an entity's ability to grant magic resistance to a summoner/necromancer/sahir seems to have gone out the window."
Curiously, by ArM5 p. 105: "The magus may choose to use the familiar's Magic Resistance, but this does not stack with a Parma Magica."
So we have in the very Order some magical practice alternative to the Parma Magica which also bestows Magic Resistance. I reckon that for many younger magi with small familiars of some Magic Might this will even be the preferred way to Magic Resistance.

"Bonisagus attempts to teach Trianoma the Hermetic Arts as his "apprentice" according to the ArM5 rules (p106-107). She probably already knows Latin or another applciable language, Artes Liberales, Philosophiae, Magic Lore and perhaps even Penetration and Finesse. She has at least one (by definition and paradigm) non-Hermetic Supernatural Ability which is probably reflected by possessing a Major Virtue."
Trianoma AFAIK was from the Mercurian tradition, so she knew rituals of that Order. She of course also had the Gift. Besides that she would not need any supernatural ability. Bonisagus taught her a new perspective on her existing Mercurian practice of magic, structuring it according to his developing Magic Theory.

Kind regards,

Berengar

I apologise for the length of my sleepy ramble. It was a tad wordy and erratic wasn't it?

Aegis of the Hearth was invented by Notatus, who became the first Primus of House Bonisagus as a result (previous editions & ArM5, p161):

"Aegis of the Hearth was invented by Notatus, the first Primus of House Bonisagus. It was a major breakthrough, incorporating Mercurian rituals as well as Hermetic theory, and was the reason Notatus was chosen to succeed Bonisagus..."

I agree this implies that there were Mercurian rituals that could provide magical protection that predate Heremtic theory & the Parma Magica.

Perhaps the term "general" magic resistance is the key:

- Parma Provides MR vs all incoming magical attacks, regardless of Realm or Form

- Other non-Hermetic magic in ArM5 - MR only against subsets of this (Realm or Form):

ie. Flambeau probably had MR vs Fire attacks (ie a pre-Hermetic Ignem form bonus) but little MR against other types of magical attacks, hence learning Parma was worthwhile as he could then face-off directly against any other magus with little fear, particularly if his (probably) Form based MR stacked with Parma.

However, this interpretation under ArM5 still makes it difficult to grant “general” MR to cunning-folk, natural magi, sahir, galdramen, gruagrach/trollsynir etc who could begin with a starting “general” MR of around 20 in ArM4 which is equivalent to a Parma of 4.
Hedge-wizards under ArM4:

- a cunning folk creates a Greater Charm of the +4 ArM4 Virtue “Magic Resistance” (which is now missing from the ArM5 V&F listing)
- a sahir or galdraman commands/bargains with a Magical entity or the landsvettir for a Magic Resistance of say 20 (equal to the the spirit’s Might)
- a natural magi creates a Ward against Magic assemblage
- a gruagrach/trollsynir with 6 in each of his three main Supernatural Abilities has a MR of 18 which can later be improved by +20 gaining a “External Soul”

I don't think the sentence regarding "general magic resistance" under Magic Resistance sentence was loosely written - it seems to be one of the purposes of ArM5 to recalibrate the power levels between magi and there is a logical flow on effect for hedge-magicians.

As for something specific in mind - the next 4 books don't seem to have anything obvious that would address this, unless The Mysteries - Revised has something in it.

I agree Parma should be better than non-Hermetic MR but the downscaling appears to have bumped non-Hermetic MR off the map.

Jarkman

"Curiously, by ArM5 p. 105: "The magus may choose to use the familiar's Magic Resistance, but this does not stack with a Parma Magica." So we have in the very Order some magical practice alternative to the Parma Magica which also bestows Magic Resistance. I reckon that for many younger magi with small familiars of some Magic Might this will even be the preferred way to Magic Resistance."

I'd missed MR via Familiars. Thanks, however I always thought familiars were brought into the Order by Merinitia (original Nature magic focus). The loss of being able to use/borrow a commanded entity's MR from their Might seems like a big blow to hedge magic traditions and by extension, the original Founders.

Why would this be a preferable method? It might be active all the time, but the maximum MR is probably more limited in upper value (difficult to find/bind familairs with a high Might score).

"Trianoma AFAIK was from the Mercurian tradition, so she knew rituals of that Order. She of course also had the Gift. Besides that she would not need any supernatural ability. Bonisagus taught her a new perspective on her existing Mercurian practice of magic, structuring it according to his developing Magic Theory."

I can't recall if Houses of Hermes supports this - I haven't had time to check. I used Trianoma as a "best student" example - the difficulties of teaching Bjornaer and perhaps Diedne (the non-Roman traditions) would be greater. Teaching their apprentices would be easier perhaps.

You're implying that Mercurian tradition, being a primary ingredient of Bonisagus' theory, would make it easier to convert to Hermetic magic? I'm not sure this follows, otherwise why would it be such a breakthrough?

Jarkman

"I always thought familiars were brought into the Order by Merinitia (original Nature magic focus)." I still do think the same.

"Why would this be a preferable method?" Because a familiar of small size can easily have a Magic Might between 20 and 35 and still be bound by a beginning magus in one season, while the Parma is taught last to that magus, so for a beginning magus rarely exceeds 1 - see ArM5 p.32.

"the difficulties of teaching Bjornaer and perhaps Diedne (the non-Roman traditions) would be greater." Indeed, but Bjornaer and Diedne were the only Magi from 'exotic', non-Roman tradition among the founders. See HoH p.136 for this.

"You're implying that Mercurian tradition, being a primary ingredient of Bonisagus' theory, would make it easier to convert to Hermetic magic? I'm not sure this follows, otherwise why would it be such a breakthrough?"
You can follow up on this e. g. in OoH p.30ff or HoH p.133ff. Bonisagus was a Roman wizard of the late Mercurian tradition. Each of these Roman wizards used Mercurian magic transformed and watered down (perhaps with the help of a few other - Egyptian and Greek - sources only ever hinted at) for his own use.
Bonisagus based his Magic Theory on what he before knew about magic, of course, and it may be said that he transformed his own adaptation of the Mercurian magic into Hermetic magic first. Trianoma and all of the other founders but Bjornaer and Diedne were also Roman magi, so teaching them Hermetic magic should have been aided by the common - though diverging - Roman-Mercurian background.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Non-Hermetic magi are reviled amongst a vocal section of the ArM fanbase (or perhaps just the Berkeley-list). Imo that may be in part because a number were less than perfect in their mechanics.

I am may be in a minority thinking non-Hermetics in general were cool and that the existence of wizards that can challenge magi, albeit in a limited way, (like Gruagachan) was a great thing for the setting. However, that view is stamped below the water-line in ArM5. The only non-Hermetic tradition that can challenge magi is the one David Chart brought to ArM4 (diabolists). Even Damhan-allaidh has been reduced to a purely sneaky bastard. Gone is the kick-ass version of LotN.

We'll have to wait until the magic realm book comes out to see what ArM5 non-Hermetic wizards actually look like. There is still the vaguest chance they might be allowed some potential. They may have ok MR against specific effects, but magi familar with the tradition will know what to avoid. The idea of non-Hermetics holding a line against the Order is now officially ruled-out.

Regards

- David W

There's two good things for the future ArM5 hedge magicians already evident: once in the Order, they can learn the Parma Magica just like Hermetic magi, and they benefit from Longevity Rituals just like Hermetic magi.
Both possibilities were sorely missed by Wid ex Miscellanea of Post Coch in ArM4.

Kind regards,

Berengar

A critical distinction in the discussion of non-Hermetics, is the one between Mythic Companion-level characters (like Natural Magicians, Summoners et al) and Magus-level characters (Gruguachan, Galdramen, Sahir, Trollsynir, et al).

In ArM4, the former group may or may not have had the Gift. Thus they might or might not have been able to learn Parma and fully benefit from LPs. In ArM4, the latter group were all Gifted, iirc the only ones who couldn't have learnt Parma were the Grugachan and Trollsynir, but both had respectable MR in any case. All Gifted people could fully benefit from LPs in ArM4.

I suspect that even Gifted non-Hermetics in ArM5 will be no more than Mythic Companion-level characters.

Regards

- David W

1) "Because a familiar of small size can easily have a Magic Might between 20 and 35 and still be bound by a beginning magus in one season, while the Parma is taught last to that magus, so for a beginning magus rarely exceeds 1 - see ArM5 p.32."

Ok, that explains your reply - I hadn't factored in the Size etc. Still, a freshly Gauntleted apprentice won't necessarily have access to a familiar quickly. (Although probably quicker and a better choice than pumping your first 75XP into Parma to get a base "general" MR of 25. This begs the question though:

If you can get a decent "general" MR from a familiar (and presumably pre-Hermetic nature magi or those of Merinitia's lineage were able to do this), what is the benefit of learning and developing Parma as a skill?

Parma just doesn't seem to be such a big advance for magi that could bind familiars in this way, particularly if the familiar's Might could be increased over time. Sure, Merinitia et al. might have other reasons for listening to Trianoma and wanting to cooperate with Bonisagus, but I don't really buy the "Parma as Diplomatic Immunity" idea even under ArM5, where a considered attempt has been made to reflect this.

2) "Bonisagus based his Magic Theory on what he before knew about magic, of course, and it may be said that he transformed his own adaptation of the Mercurian magic into Hermetic magic first. Trianoma and all of the other founders but Bjornaer and Diedne were also Roman magi, so teaching them Hermetic magic should have been aided by the common - though diverging - Roman-Mercurian background."

Ok, this makes sense to me. This common background implies some sort of common reference point though - perhaps "Mercurian Wisdom", similar to the Gruagrach & Galdor Wisdom Abilities? This works for most Founders as you've pointed out and I can accept Bjornaer as having more trouble than most.

Still Diedne's pre-Hermetic magic forms the basis of Hermetic Spontaneous Magic, yet she was of a decidedly non-Roman tradition and Bonisagus seems to have learnt form her. I suspect she and her earlier followers would have difficulty learning the more Mercurian aspects of Bonnisagus's new system. (But then I've always viewed pre-Hermetic Diedne as a Celtic Mystery cult having powers composed of a collection of Supernatural Abilities (Shapeshift, Geas, Gift, Divination etc.) with the ability to initiate more as they progress upwards through the ranks).

Jarkman

>>>If you can get a decent "general" MR from a familiar (and presumably pre-Hermetic nature magi or those of Merinitia's lineage were able to do this),<<<

No. Pre-Hermetic magi were unable to do this. Hermetic magi can, non-Hermetic magi cannot.

Why? I don't know. Only David Chart can answer that one...

Regards

- David W

"All Gifted people could fully benefit from LPs in ArM4."

No. ArM4 p.90 allowed fully working longevity potions only for magi - and called everybody else 'mundane' in the subsequent phrase.
The concept of the Gift was hazy at best in ArM4, mostly reserved for flavor sections of text, and never applied as a distinction in hard and fast rules. Who had or had not the Gift was rather a matter of an individual campaign, as even the supplements were contradictory on the subject.

Kind regards,

Berengar

"If you can get a decent "general" MR from a familiar (and presumably pre-Hermetic nature magi or those of Merinitia's lineage were able to do this), what is the benefit of learning and developing Parma as a skill?"
You see the point very well.
One argument might be, that the Magic Might of your familiar does not increase, while over time you wish to increase your - and also your familiar's - Magic Resistance. Merinita might perhaps have felt that way?
I can't tell you the powers of the ArM5-version of Merinita the founder and her mighty pre-hermetic deer familiar, though.

Kind regards,

Berengar

ArM4 p90

"Non-magical people, however, are not as resilient as magi. The potion you create for a mundane therefore only subtracts one from the character's aging rolls for every 10 full points in your Lab Total."

Gifted non-Hermetics are magical people, not mundanes. To me it is trivially clear that all Gifted people benefit fully from Longevity Potions in ArM4.

The only discussion I ever saw on this, was what level of supernatural talent qualified a character as 'magical'. Some thought a single +1 Virtue like 'Second Sight' qualified a character, others thought you needed to be 'Fully Gifted'. The magus-level non-Hermetics are all 'Fully Gifted', even in ArM4's terms. There was no dispute over them.

This is the first time I heard someone suggest only Hermetic magi qualified... I wonder why you think this has been clarified for you in ArM5?

ArM5, Laboratory Chapter:

"Non-magical people, however, are not as resilient as magi. The ritual you create for a mundane therefore only subtracts one from the character's aging rolls for every 10 points (round up) in your Lab Total."

However, with the new aging rules (see Hermes Portal 6 for the ArM4 version) LRs for mundanes are actually still very effective.

Gifted Non-Hermetics are not mundane though.

Regards

- David W

>>>As far as I can tell, no other form of MR would protect against the effect of the Gift, that alone is a good reason to choose parma...<<<

Gift influence seems to have infinite penetration against all forms of magic resistance, except Parma, against which it has none whatsoever. Very, very, odd...

Regards

- David W

Thank you all for the stimulating discussion so far - I am still digesting some of it and will reply agains soon - I'm in the middle of sorting out a Kernel Panic in OS X...

Jarkman

In regards to magical vs. mundane people to determine what kind of Longevity Ritual you need, there is an easy standard. If a person would gain warping points from living in a high magic aura they are mundane otherwise they are magical.

Yes this does mean when a mundane gets warped enough (if by Magic as opposed to Faerie, or Infernal) they cease to be a mundane and become magical.

>>Humans can gain general magical resistance from three sources: the
>>Divine, the Infernal, and Hermetic magic. No other magical or faerie
>>powers are able to provide general magic resistance to humans, but
>>creatures with a Might score have Magic Resistance equal to their Might
>>(see page 191)."

>Ok, so there goes cunning folk, baal shem, galdraman & natural magician
>charms/amulets/items that provide magic resistance. Likewise an
>entity's ability to grant magic resistance to a
>summoner/necromancer/sahir seems to have gone out the window.
>Gruagrach/trollsynir seem to have also been given the boot - no Might,
>therefore no MR.

Well, yes and no. They cannot give complete Magic Resistance, but there is no rule against a charm that, for instance, protects against one Form or one Technique. Given that pre-Hermetics probably did not have access to all 15 Arts, that kind of partial spell resistance might be effective against them. In other words, pre-Hermetic magic could conceivably give protection against a substantial number of pre-Hermetic threats.

spuwsda2:
//ArM4 p90

"Non-magical people, however, are not as resilient as magi. The potion you create for a mundane therefore only subtracts one from the character's aging rolls for every 10 full points in your Lab Total."

Gifted non-Hermetics are magical people, not mundanes. To me it is trivially clear that all Gifted people benefit fully from Longevity Potions in ArM4.

...

ArM5, Laboratory Chapter:

"Non-magical people, however, are not as resilient as magi. The ritual you create for a mundane therefore only subtracts one from the character's aging rolls for every 10 points (round up) in your Lab Total."//

That double quote out of context is funny enough to let one nearly forgive the implied contempt for the intelligence of its readers.

To allow everybody to savor the joke without having to rummage through their books, here the two complete quotes:

ArM5, p.101: "A Longevity Ritual made for another magus or a character with a Supernatural Ability functions just as if made for you (-1 to aging rolls for every 5 points of Lab Total). Non-magical people, however, are not as resilient as magi. The ritual you create for mundanes therefore only subtracts one from the character's aging rolls for every 10 points (round up) in your Lab Total."
So here the 'non-magical people' with reduced Longevity Rituals are those who are *neither* magi *nor* have a Supernatural Ability. You need not even the Gift to have Longevity Rituals fully working on you: Dowsing is quite sufficient.

ArM4, p.90: "A longevity potion made for another magus functions just as if made for you (-1 to aging rolls for every 5 points of Lab Total). Non-magical people, however, are not as resilient as magi. The potion you create for mundanes therefore only subtracts one from the character's aging rolls for every 10 full points in your Lab Total."
Here, however, the 'non-magical people' are *all* those who are not magi. After all, 'magus' is a precisely defined term which cannot be arbitrarily extended to cover other supernatural capabilities, while as a game rule this text has to cover all possible characters.
For that reason e. g. in Faeries, p.137 it had to be and was explicitly stated that characters with the virtue Strong Faerie Blood "respond as magi to longevity potions they are given, in terms of subtracting from aging rolls.", while the same was not said for characters with e. g. Faerie Sight or Blessing capabilities.

B5Rebel: //In regards to magical vs. mundane people to determine what kind of Longevity Ritual you need, there is an easy standard. If a person would gain warping points from living in a high magic aura they are mundane otherwise they are magical.//
This nearly works, and can certainly be made a house rule. It could even be the result of errata to ArM5 soon.
But ArM5 p.101 explicitly - though perhaps inadvertently - requires a Supernatural Ability (one of those listed on ArM5 p.64) for the full effectiveness of the Longevity Ritual.
Somebody with e.g. a Lesser Immunity Virtue aligned with magic would hence neither fully benefit from Longevity Rituals, nor be warped by magic because of ArM5 p.168: "At a Warping Score of 5, the character gains a mystical Minor Virtue attuned to the primary source of the Warping Points. This stops any further gain of points from living in a strong aura of the same type of the Minor Virtue."

Kind regards,

Berengar

-------------------------------------
QUOTATION, n.
The act of repeating erroneously the words of another. The words erroneously repeated. (Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary)

Sir Garlon wrote: "Well, yes and no. They cannot give complete Magic Resistance, but there is no rule against a charm that, for instance, protects against one Form or one Technique. Given that pre-Hermetics probably did not have access to all 15 Arts, that kind of partial spell resistance might be effective against them. In other words, pre-Hermetic magic could conceivably give protection against a substantial number of pre-Hermetic threats."

Sure, this follows but depends on how you define it. All the Founders were in effect hedge-mages, given they didn't know Parma or Hermetic theory. The Parma "Glass Ceiling" on hedge-magic makes it difficult to reverse-engineer their abilites...

I think Parma was pretty reasonable in ArM4 when sued in conjunction with Form based resistance that magi gain from their Arts (the ability to learn Arts at a much faster rate than standard Abilities already being a huge advantage).

?ArM5 MR subtypes:

*"Complete" MR or "general" magic resistance:
protects against all magic, regardless of origin
examples under ArM5

Hermetic Magi base MR of 0
Parma Magica (individual or extended to cover others)
Aegis of the Hearth spell
MR from a familiar's Magic Might
MR from Guardian Angel Major Virtue (conditional on God's will)
Might score value

Note: no non-Hermetic can duplicate this under ArM5, guaranteeing Parma as superior

"Realm" based MR:
protects against one Realm only, ie. Magic OR Infernal OR Divine OR Faerie
eg. Hermetic Wards vs (specific) Realm and items that duplicate this

Perhaps this is how HM MR granting abilities/items could work but it seems a bit odd given say a sahir in ArM4 could command an entity to protect him with their MR from their Might regardless of the entity's Realm affiliation or the source Realm of the attack ie. efefctively "borrowing" the entity's natural MR from it's Might. Seems odd to only be able to borrow "part" of this protection.

Even if a HM used an ability that only protected them from attacks aligned with the Magic Realm, the supposed superiority of Parma would be basically offset, at least in regard to the majority of other magi who, it could be assumed, invoke magic aligned with the Magic realm. This would particularly be the case for pre-Hermetic magi from Mercurian lineages - why need (or fear) Trianoma's newfangled Parma if you can invoke MR vs the Magic Realm.

*"Art" based MR:
protects against only one Te or Form (all magic whether Hermetic or non-Hermetic)
eg. Hermetic magi Form bonuses to MR
(note the rpesence of deficiencies in this area that can be taken as Flaws)
Greater Immunity Virtue (eg. to Fire protects against non-magical and magical fire)
? Mercurian magical abilities

This seems clumsy to me, even if you could invoke MR vs a whole Technique or two rather than just a Form. I'll have to think on this some more - it fits the flavour of Flambeau's reputed resistance to Fire based effects, but I find it difficult to conceive he didn't have any other form of more general MR, "Realm-based" or not...

Jarkman

David Woods wrote:

"Gift influence seems to have infinite penetration against all forms of magic resistance, except Parma, against which it has none whatsoever. Very, very, odd..."

This is indeed odd. I agree and can't really reconcile this.

Without going in to it, I don't quite agree with your interpretation of the ArM5 Gift and it's effect particularly in terms of encouraging Magicide as you've posted on the Berklist.

I liked the added flavour text for the Gift in ArM5 (in fact I like most of ArM5 really) but I'd interpret it in a less harsh light than David. I don't like the effects it would have on a Saga similar to the one portrayed in LoFaI though... (refer to Berklist post)

The whole Parma dulling the effect of the Gift is new though and seems to be a bit of an add-in justification of why Parma helped lead to the founding of the Order - Founders excessively paranoid of each other due to Gift pre-Parma, post Parma everyone a happy Mercurian Brady Bunch :P

Jarkman

Berengar wrote:

"One argument might be, that the Magic Might of your familiar does not increase, while over time you wish to increase your - and also your familiar's - Magic Resistance. Merinita might perhaps have felt that way?"

Sure, but to resort to low tactics... I invoke the Mysteries!

Say you have the Parhedros virtue, taught to you by your knowldege of Hermetic theurgy. IIRC, there is a bond quality that allows you to increase your parhedroi's Magic Might. Now this is ArM5 and pre-Hermetic etc., but I would have thought you could increase a familiar's Magic Might over time somehow. After all, Faerie Companions could slowly gain Might IIRC in the Faeries:Revised supplement which seemed to make sense to me.

"I can't tell you the powers of the ArM5-version of Merinita the founder and her mighty pre-hermetic deer familiar, though."'

I don't expect anyone to (and perhaps it is best not to "nail the chamber pots" on this issue) but I'd like to be able to conceptualise non-Hermetic magi, particularly the Founders a bit clearer...

Jarkman

">>>If you can get a decent "general" MR from a familiar (and presumably pre-Hermetic nature magi or those of Merinitia's lineage were able to do this),<<<No. Pre-Hermetic magi were unable to do this. Hermetic magi can, non-Hermetic magi cannot."

Please enlighten me on where it implies this, I've missed it.

Jarkman

"All the Founders were in effect hedge-mages, given they didn't know Parma or Hermetic theory. The Parma "Glass Ceiling" on hedge-magic makes it difficult to reverse-engineer their abilites..."
I agree that it is tricky to impossible to bring many ArM4 non-hermetic traditions into ArM5 under this condition.
The founders, however, did not hail from any of these ArM4 'hedge magic' or exotic traditions, so trying to employ such traditions to engineer their - hardly hinted at - capabilities can well prove inadequate.

"Say you have the Parhedros virtue, taught to you by your knowldege of Hermetic theurgy. IIRC, there is a bond quality that allows you to increase your parhedroi's Magic Might."
Given that in Mysteries 'The Huntress of the Woods', self-appointed followers of the ancient Merinita, taught the Parhedros inner mystery, it would have been reasonable to assume in ArM4 that Merinita's deer was a parhedros, too, and could benefit from Shared Spirit.
But, as you already said in this context, "this is ArM5".

Kind regards,

Berengar

>>>Without going in to it, I don't quite agree with your interpretation of the ArM5 Gift and it's effect particularly in terms of encouraging Magicide as you've posted on the Berklist.<<<

Note that my actual position is:

If the Gift acts as a reputation, it will have a continuing affect on relationships. If a relationship in placed under stress, it is more likely to break. If it turns sour, it is likely to be amplified and sustained by Gift influence.

But this is a specific criticism of the reputation model. I dislike the whole ArM5 re-telling of the Gift.

>>> I don't like the effects it would have on a Saga similar to the one portrayed in LoFaI though... (refer to Berklist post)<<<

That is my broader point. After reading the ArM5 section on the Gift many people were of the opinion 'Change? What change? It's just a clarification.'. However, others (not just me) thought that this was a most profound change; one that would mess up our vision of ME.

So in previous editions there was a broad range saga possibility. Now a particular (and extreme imo) saga vision has been stamped into canon. The extension whereby the Gift affects the Gifted and even other supernaturals is a particularly irksome change imo.

The placement of the Gentle Gift as a Major Hermetic Virtue is the iceing on the cake.

>>>The whole Parma dulling the effect of the Gift is new though and seems to be a bit of an add-in justification of why Parma helped lead to the founding of the Order - Founders excessively paranoid of each other due to Gift pre-Parma, post Parma everyone a happy Mercurian Brady Bunch :P<<<

Was that needed?

For me this issue has really soured me against ArM5. We will see what influence it has on future sourcebooks. Probably not me, as I doubt I'll be buying any ArM5 books.

Regards

- David W

The acquiring of a general MR is explicitly and absolutely forbidden under ArM5 to all but Hermetic Magi. Pre-Hermetics are not an exception.

ArM5 Hermetic Magic chapter:

"Humans can gain general magic resistance from three sources: the Divine, the Infernal, and Hermetic magic. No other magical or faerie powers are able to provide general magic resistance to humans,"

Benefitting from the Might of a familiar is a form of general MR. This is absolutely forbidden for non-Hermetics (which include pre-Hermetics).

Ergo, the Sharing magical resistance via the Familiar Bound must only be possible by Hermetic magic. Non-heremtic familiars cannot share magic resistance (unless canon changes on this subject).

And no, I don't think this makes good sense to my metaphysical intuitions. But than I thought it was unnecessary to absolutely forbid general MR to non-Hermetics in general.

Regards

- David W

>That leaves only the Infernal as a source for MR for all the Founders.
>Damn.

I don't understand, why do you think it's important that the Founders had any Magic Resistance at all?

In my imagination, wizards before the founding of the Order had no MR at all. If they got into a fight, their magic would just affect each other. This means the first wizard to cast a deadly spell would kill the other guy.

I envision Flambeau as being like an Old West gunfighter - a quick draw, who could shoot and kill before his opponent could react. He happened to be lucky with his personal magic powers, perhaps because they had greater than Eye range.

Tytalus I see as more cerebral, maybe not with direct combat powers but something more subtle like Entrancement. He was dangerous because he was clever and ruthless in the use of his powers.

Along comes Trianoma, trying to get Flambeau to join up. With the 5th Ed. rules it could have gone something like this:

Trianoma: Come join our new Order.
Flambeau: Get lost, kid.
Trianoma: No, really, join us.
Flambeau: Get out of my face or I'll roast you like a sausage.
Trianoma (getting an idea): Try it.
Flambeau: I'm warning you...
Trianoma: C'mon, roast me. You big pansy.
Flambeau: Listen, you're really getting me angry!
Trianoma: Pansy, pansy, pansy!
Flambeau: All right, I warned you - FWACKOOM! (No one has Magic Resistance so Flambeau never learned anything about Penetration. A giant fireball bounces off Trianoma's Parma)
Trianoma: Is that the best you can do?
Flambeau: What the...? FWACKOOM! KABLAM! KAPOW!
Trianoma: (Casts a Perdo Mentem spell to calm Flambeau down) As I was saying. Come join our new Order and we'll teach you how to resist magic.
Flambeau: Baloney. No one can teach magic, you're just born with it.
Trianoma: We can. Bonisagus taught me, and I taught Mercere.
Flambeau: You're kidding! Where do I sign up?

"I don't understand, why do you think it's important that the Founders had any Magic Resistance at all? In my imagination, wizards before the founding of the Order had no MR at all. If they got into a fight, their magic would just affect each other. This means the first wizard to cast a deadly spell would kill the other guy."

Between Mercurian magi this may be reasonable. But what about magical creatures with a Might score (Magical, Faerie or Infernal particularly). No MR at all means an acute susceptibility to other supernatural creatures, which seems implausible to me.

"I envision Flambeau as being like an Old West gunfighter - a quick draw, who could shoot and kill before his opponent could react. He happened to be lucky with his personal magic powers, perhaps because they had greater than Eye range."

I think of Flambeau similarly, but it seems odd he wouldn't have at least some MR vs fire based attacks given his proficiency with fire and light (even if only in the form of a Greater Immunity). Speed may be a factor sure but I don't think gunslinging is quite what I had in mind.

"Tytalus I see as more cerebral, maybe not with direct combat powers but something more subtle like Entrancement. He was dangerous because he was clever and ruthless in the use of his powers."

This is odd, as it seems to contradict your point above - a Tytalus vs Flambeau match in this circumstance means Tytalus would lose if Flambeau could fast-draw a BoAF equivalent. IMO this is not in keeping with idea of Flam + Tyt being the most combat oriented of the Founders. After all, Tytalus was part of the "Join or Die" crusade and was fond of challenging other magi before he learnt Parma - seems pretty silly if say a lightning oriented magus could "gunsling him" while he was trying to stare into their eyes. After Parma I can see this approach, but pre-Parma he's toast.

(I see Tytalus as belonging to more of a theurgical tradition, invoking magic through the control of entities like a sahir or perhaps a galdraman albeit using Mercurian ritual derived spells. Perhaps he had Entrancement or something similar as well, but I'd suspect this would be a minor ability of use against mundanes mainly and not magi or magical creatures.).

"Along comes Trianoma, trying to get Flambeau to join up"

I can see Flambeau being interested in learning Parma for it's general MR, but I think he'd rely more on his Mercurian abilities/spells than learning Arts, even if they provided a Form bonus to MR - he's an "old dog" and probably not interested in more than 1 new trick. I'd see his later apprentices and those of Apromor (but not Apromor himself) learning primarily Hermetic Magic and being involved in learning "converted" versions of their masters' "signature spells". The remaining spells from each Mercurian lineage would then be incorporated over time..

Jarkman

"Non-Hermetic magi are reviled amongst a vocal section of the ArM fanbase (or perhaps just the Berkeley-list). Imo that may be in part because a number were less than perfect in their mechanics. I am may be in a minority thinking non-Hermetics in general were cool and that the existence of wizards that can challenge magi, albeit in a limited way, (like Gruagachan) was a great thing for the setting. However, that view is stamped below the water-line in ArM5."

I agree with this and must be part of the (silent) minority, although I can't see why those non-Hermetics with better mechanics can't be used. The Founders, remnant "pure" Mercurian magi, Druids/pre-Hermetic Diedne and primal Shapeshifters from which Bjornaer descended all had a place in developing Hermetic theory at least. Other traditions would be similarly interesting.

The game is "The Art of Magic" after all, not just "Hermetic Magic" :P

"There is still the vaguest chance they might be allowed some potential. They may have ok MR against specific effects, but magi familar with the tradition will know what to avoid. The idea of non-Hermetics holding a line against the Order is now officially ruled-out."

I don't think this approach is feasible due to meta-gaming issues. I don't need non-Hermetics holding a line but a decent exotic challenge or unusual encounter would be good.

Jarkman

"There's two good things for the future ArM5 hedge magicians already evident: once in the Order, they can learn the Parma Magica just like Hermetic magi, and they benefit from Longevity Rituals just like Hermetic magi. Both possibilities were sorely missed by Wid ex Miscellanea of Post Coch in ArM4."

I though hedge magicians could learn Parma if they joined the Order along the lines suggested in Hedge Magic (p33) as ArM4 p55 only says:

"Hermetic Skills may only be purchased by magi of the Order of Hermes." and then lists Certamen and Parma Magica as the two Hermetic skills available.

Granted, Parma is a bit useless in ArM4 unless you have an Art score but I'd always taken this to imply that HMs could learn Parma. This would makes sense, as Ex-Miscellanea mages could presumably learn Parma, as could Diedne and her followers and Bjornaer. All these "magi of the Order of Hermes" are presumably non-Hermetic and non-Mercurian in origin. It's a magical ritual after all...

Jarkman

"A critical distinction in the discussion of non-Hermetics, is the one between Mythic Companion-level characters (like Natural Magicians, Summoners et al) and Magus-level characters (Gruguachan, Galdramen, Sahir, Trollsynir, et al).

"In ArM4, the former group may or may not have had the Gift. Thus they might or might not have been able to learn Parma and fully benefit from LPs."

I think it's actually ab it more complicated than this...

In ArM4 Hermetic magi were defined as the most powerful (although it was hinted that the structure of Hermetic theory potentially limited magi from achieving their greatest potential in a specialist area). In ArM5 (and creeping in to late ArM4 canon) this has been more clearly codified and there David Chart appears to have developed a clearer vision of the line in the later stages of ArM4 (see Niall's comments regarding sahirs at http://www.geocities.com/sanctumhr/).

This all appears to stem from comments made by David Chart in Hermes Portal #5 in his article on "The Magic of the Founders", which now that I've gone back and read through it a few times seems to be where the ideas behind the changes in ArM5 canon have originated (penetration total, the lack of pre-Hermetic MR vs creatures with Might, the superiority of Parma and it's reliance on the Gift, a Hermetic spell version of the Parma Magica & revised spell mastery). I think it's quite an interesting and well thought out article, even if I don't agree with all the implications. It certainly suggests how future ArM5 supplements might deal with these issues and is the kernel of a clear vision for the new line.

A clear vision of the line is a good thing IMO, but I wish (and I suspect there are other also) that would like to have some non-Hermetic magi that can challenge the Order, if only in their field of expertise. Playtesting is probably the key - I think the 150 year sample covenant (Post Coch) gives a clear idea of what works and doesn't work when you advance a cunning-folk over a Saga but it's only one hedge-magical tradition as far as I know.

Basically hedge-magicians fitted into 4 or 5 categories across the ArM4 supplements:

1) Companion Level

These are un-Gifted HM with a few (usually 1 major and 1 or 2 Minor Virtues) Supernatural Abilities, paid for out of the normal 10 point V&F pool for companion characters. Eg. the Witch in ArM5 or say a troubadour/bard character who has Enchanting Music and perhaps Secon Sight.

2) "Standard" Mystic or Mythic Companion

These are HM with 10 free points of magical/other Virtues as suggested in the ArM4 Hedge Magic supplement. They are meant to occupy either a player's companion or magus slot, at the Troupe's discretion. These HMs are probably not all Gifted - if Gifted, perhaps they should be "magus" slot and have other benefits as alldued to by David.

Examples would be Summoners, Ascetics, Necromancers (from Kaballah: Mythic Judaism), Wind Wizards (Ultima Thule), Natural Magicians (and possibly Raqi from Blood & Sand) as well as all the iterations of culturally specific "local" cunning-folk found throughout the later Tribunal books (depending a bit on how Charms & Banes are limited/abused). Vitkir and their rune magic (not a favourite of mine) probably also fit in here.

3) "Magus"- level Mystic or Mythic Companions

The distinction between these and category 2 is somewhat difficult to classify. Most have greater than 10 points of free Virtues worth of Supernatural Abilities under ArM4. Most of these had some form of inherent "general" Magic Resistance or could easily obtain one. Probably all this category of HM are Gifted, IMO. Their common mechanic appears to be Characteristic + Ability #1 + Ability #2 (+ optional Ability #3) + aura which seems fairly robust.

Nearly all had quite specific cultural and in-game mechanic limitations with often quite focussed magical abilities which made them challenging but not al-powerful when compared to Hermetic magi. Good examples of this are gruagrachan, trollsynir, galdramen and sahirs. Kaballists and some Natural Magicians (especially the Blood & Sand variant, the raqi) probably could fall into this category as well. Volkhvy fit here but are probably broken (3x discipline score in the casting total is way too powerful when already combined with two other Abilities and the multiple potential bonuses).

4) "Failed Apprentice" / Damaged Gift individuals

There is no real ArM4 canon on these, they sort of overlap with category 3 above.

My experience with these have been limited, although there was an interesting Hermes Portal article about them a while back which I enjoyed. Their potential seems to be in describing the Founders and their early apprentices' abilities or other non-Hermetic or partially Hermetic traditions.

5) "Might-based" Hedge Magicians

Faerie Companions (and Jinn which use very similar Might based similar rules) are a special case almost but probably fit here IMO. I can't see this working that well in ArM5, although the Mysteries had an attempted mechanics (Theurgy and the Elixir) for gaining Magic Might as well.

This 3rd category of HM has been most affected by ArM5 canon (particularly the always implied but now "enforced" superiority of Parma Magica). I'd be particularly interested in how this category of "Hedgies" is handled under ArM5, particularly in any book on the Magic Realm, but also in the Mysteries: Revised, which appears slated for this coming year.

It would be a shame to lose the "magus-level" or higher challenges to Hermetic magi but I'm not sure that ArM5 leaves much room to maneuver beneath the Parma Ceiling. The first two categories really provide only background dressing...

Jarkman

"Note that my actual position is: If the Gift acts as a reputation, it will have a continuing affect on relationships. If a relationship in placed under stress, it is more likely to break. If it turns sour, it is likely to be amplified and sustained by Gift influence. But this is a specific criticism of the reputation model. I dislike the whole ArM5 re-telling of the Gift."

I understand this, just not the extreme example. I'm more interested in the setting effect.

"That is my broader point. After reading the ArM5 section on the Gift many people were of the opinion 'Change? What change? It's just a clarification.'. However, others (not just me) thought that this was a most profound change; one that would mess up our vision of ME.
So in previous editions there was a broad range saga possibility. Now a particular (and extreme imo) saga vision has been stamped into canon. The extension whereby the Gift affects the Gifted and even other supernaturals is a particularly irksome change imo."

I agree with this - it makes virtually all the peripheral Tribunal settings difficult (Loch Leglean, the Levant + of course Iceland ie. anywhere where Gifted hedge magicians are more integrated into society).

Ars is already a marginal game, I'd prefer more setting flexibility - the current incarnation suggests a Rhine/Provencal/Alps style setting based post-Schism war only. Anything to do with the Founders, Diedne or pre-Hermetic and non-Hermetic magic is much less viable.

I like the streamlined ArM5 with its consistencies, I just don't like the loss of flexibility in terms of possible settings and stories, when the limitations seem a bit arbitrary.

The latter point (Gift affecting other Gifted and supernaturals) doesn't make sense to me and also makes the whole Cult of Mercury difficult to envision - tens to hundreds of "disreputable" individuals gathered together to invoke magical rituals in the name of the Empire? Doesn't ring true to me (assuming they were Gifted), particularly given the degree of cooperation this implies.

"The placement of the Gentle Gift as a Major Hermetic Virtue is the iceing on the cake."

I'm in the Minor Virtue House Rule camp on this one and hope it becomes official ArM5 errata or at least canonised as an optional rule, but it's effect on official published ArM5 material will set a distinct tone for the line as you note.

Of course, an ArM5 interpretation of hedge magicians might redefine them as unGifted, making the Gift purely a Hermetic/Mercurian manifestation but this has it's own implications in ArM5 - weakened Longevity Rituals, inability to learn Parma.

I could rationalise say a trollsynir or gruagach as being unGifted and having say "Disfigured" & "Offensive to Animals" in ArM5 - they can't learn Hermetic magic anyway (under ArM4) and couldn't benefit from Parma in the old paradigm either so I can't see why they "need" to have the Gift. Once they start getting afflictions (probably Warping under ArM5) they gain the full "Magical Air" Major Flaw effects...

Galdramen and sahir are trickier a priori though as I'd imagine they could learn Hermetic magic (after all, their magic is essentially learnt) with difficulty if they possessed the Gift. Mind you this is my view, heavily based on your "Galdor Mysteries" article in Hermes Portal which I found interesting.

Probably not all of these "magus-level" style hedge magicians would necessarily have the Gift - perhaps some would have either the Gentle Gift as default or only "Offensive to Animals" and perhaps another optional Minor Social or General flaw (both traditions are far more cosmopolitan and interact with mundanes often as initially presented). This would allow the possibility of some exotic non-Mercurian Magi having the potential to be drafted into the Order, although they would be the exception rather than the rule - sort of a "Latent Magical Ability" to learn Hermetic magic but at the price of the Gift's negative effects. This would probably maintain the viability of the respective published "Peripheral Tribunal" settings, at least from a Gift (but not MR viewpoint).

Still doesn't help with Diedne and Bjornaer (and perhaps the other Ex-Miscs) though, I'd have a hard time rationalising particularly Diedne's followers as mainly UnGifted - they and their apprentices could learn Parma and Hermetic magic but were not Mercurian in origin (indeed their magic forms part of Hermetic Magic's foundations) - this implies they had the ArM5 Gift under the existing canon even if say Diedne had the Gentle version and Bjornaer an "Inoffensive to Animals" version.

BTW, I don't think the whole "Parma dulls Gift effect equals Hermetic Brady Bunch" is needed either, but under the ArM5 version of the Gift, such an effect fulfills a metagame function of explaining the Order's viability.

"For me this issue has really soured me against ArM5. We will see what influence it has on future sourcebooks. Probably not me, as I doubt I'll be buying any ArM5 books."

This would be a pity if it means you won't be contributing to design in the future David. An intelligent dissenting opinion is worth more than ten assenting ones and can sometimes help hone a thought into something greater and more beautiful than could be achieved by either viewpoint alone.

Regards,

Jarkman

//I though hedge magicians could learn Parma if they joined the Order along the lines suggested in Hedge Magic (p33) as ArM4 p55 only says:

"Hermetic Skills may only be purchased by magi of the Order of Hermes." and then lists Certamen and Parma Magica as the two Hermetic skills available.//

A 'hedge magician' - i. e. cunning folk, natural magician or such, who cannot work Hermetic Magic - does not become a magus - as defined in ArM4 p. 13f, hence capable of working Hermetic Magic - just by joining the Order of Hermes, though he may fill your 'magus slot' in the troupe even if not joining the Order.

Also in ArM5 - on p.8 already - a magus is clearly defined as a "member of the Order of Hermes who can use Hermetic Magic". In ArM5 Parma Magica is not restricted to magi, though, but - ArM5 p.66 - to Gifted characters, who have to join the Order to be taught in it. ArM5 hence removes the requirement to learn Hermetic Magic and become a magus before learning the Parma Magica.

Kind regards,

Berengar

"... also makes the whole Cult of Mercury difficult to envision - tens to hundreds of "disreputable" individuals gathered together to invoke magical rituals in the name of the Empire? Doesn't ring true to me (assuming they were Gifted), particularly given the degree of cooperation this implies."
This was seen by David Chart, too - so ArM5 members of the Cult of Mercury did rarely meet in person but to perform these rituals, and violence within the Cult got punished rigidly. Still that Cult had problems, and disintegrated together with the western Roman empire. See ArM5 p.9.

"I'd have a hard time rationalising particularly Diedne's followers as mainly UnGifted - they and their apprentices could learn Parma and Hermetic magic but were not Mercurian in origin (indeed their magic forms part of Hermetic Magic's foundations) - this implies they had the ArM5 Gift under the existing canon even if say Diedne had the Gentle version and Bjornaer an "Inoffensive to Animals" version."
I agree with most Diedne magi having had the Gentle Gift. I do not see why Bjornaer or her followers had to be welcome among animals, though: to the contrary, even the normal shapeshifter should make animals wary at least.

Kind regards,

Berengar

>>>I don't need non-Hermetics holding a line but a decent exotic challenge or unusual encounter would be good.<<<

The Sahir were meant to have forced Flambeau (then Hermetic) to commit suicide. They were meant to be resisting Hermetics in Spain and the Crusader kingdoms.

In any case, the Grugauchan in LotN were depicted as members of the Order. Their powers could command respect of a Hermetic magus. Will the ArM5 versions be more than laughable wrt Hermetics? We'll see.

Regards

- David W

"A 'hedge magician' - i. e. cunning folk, natural magician or such, who cannot work Hermetic Magic - does not become a magus - as defined in ArM4 p. 13f, hence capable of working Hermetic Magic - just by joining the Order of Hermes, though he may fill your 'magus slot' in the troupe even if not joining the Order."

Sorry, I'm not sure of the reference you cite for this statement - which book, which page?
I accept your point, but this seems a very literal interpretation on review. I thought there was an example character with this in one of the ArM4 books but can't find it. Failed Apprentice doesn't allow it either.

However, WG:RE p61-63 suggests to me that this might be possible: the "Outsider Trained in the Order" prohibits the character from starting with scores in Certamen or Parma Magica (or Order of Hermes Lore) but does not go so far as to prohibit them from learning these skills. Similarly the Flaw: "Originally Trained in an Incompatible System" makes it difficult to learn Parma (and Arts) reflected by a -1 to the normal ArM4 template score but does not prohibit it to characters that started training under another system.

Since Parma predates Hermetic Theory, although it is related to it (Mercurian origin, Bonisagus), under ArM4 there appears to be no reason why it couldn't be taught to a previous hedge magician that joins ex-Misc - in fact, it's would be the only major reason to join for many exotic traditions in the later years when the "Join or Die" policy falls to the wayside a bit. It's not like hedgies are any good at intra-Order politics with their negative reputations. Whether they need the Gift or not is a bit ambiguous to me.

"Also in ArM5 - on p.8 already - a magus is clearly defined as a "member of the Order of Hermes who can use Hermetic Magic". In ArM5 Parma Magica is not restricted to magi, though, but - ArM5 p.66 - to Gifted characters, who have to join the Order to be taught in it. ArM5 hence removes the requirement to learn Hermetic Magic and become a magus before learning the Parma Magica."

No, in ArM5 Parma clearly requires the Gift which is a welcome clarification. Since Bonisagus taught Parma to Trianoma before inventing Hermetic Theory with the help of the other Founders, Parma clearly doesn't require Hermetic Magic to learn though.

The fact that apprentices are taught how to activate their Parma just before the end of their apprenticeship by convention seems to be more a way of ensuring they don't run off/escape (which unfortunately limits the potential of the "Failed Apprentice" style of hedge magician, ala the Hermes Portal article, quite considerably). It specifically states it is not dependent on having the Hermetic Arts opened, only belonging to the Order of Hermes and having the Gift.

I agree that this means that in ArM5, hedge magicians if they have the Gift (remains to be seen how common this is in ArM5 though) can learn Parma only if they join the Order of Hermes or if they secretly learn it (from a rogue magus, ghost of a magus or perhaps a book?) and are willing to have the whole Order of Hermes after them and the magus who taught them, ArM5 p66). Might be an interesting option - being chased by Hermetic magi would be a great way to build up exposure XP to improve your Parma, eh?

This is a good thing, at least for Gifted hedge magicians, about the change sin ArM5.

Jarkman

"This was seen by David Chart, too - so ArM5 members of the Cult of Mercury did rarely meet in person but to perform these rituals, and violence within the Cult got punished rigidly. Still that Cult had problems, and disintegrated together with the western Roman empire. See ArM5 p.9."

Sure, that's fine but I mean the ruling mundanes of the Roman Empire tolerating a semi-organised bunch of paranoid, envious, creepy mages that get together now and again to invoke massively destructive rituals on the Empire's enemies - seems a bit naive don't you think if every magus the current Caesar or the rest of the ruling aristocrats meets makes them feel creeped out and distrustful of them.

I mean Roman Emperor's, particularly the later ones, weren't particularly known for their a) sanity b) easygoing trusting natures c) willingness to share control of power.

Sure lay intermediaries and leaders of the Cult might have had the Gentle Gift but getting them all together to cast a ritual for soemone elses benefit (even something like the Roman Empire) would be like getting a UN meeting to agree on strategy...

It's plausible under the less intense pre-ArM5 version fo the Gift, but tenuous under the ArM5 version, even if Parma then provides an elegant metagame solution to the problem.

"I do not see why Bjornaer or her followers had to be welcome among animals, though: to
the contrary, even the normal shapeshifter should make animals wary at least."

This is a good point - on reflection I must agree, although I think the rare pre-Bjornaer shapeshifters would have been "Inoffensive to Animals" or perhaps even lacked "Magical Air" or an equivalent with regard to humans but been "Offensive to Animals" - this fits some of the folkloric paradigms.

I'd actually consider Bjornaer as a bit unusual for her tradition - perhaps she was one of the few shapeshifters that had the Gift and hence the potential to learn other, perhaps more powerful, forms of magic. She could even have been one of the rare shapeshifters that was "Inoffensive to Animals" and thus different from the majority of her tradition to begin with. This could be a partial explanation for her willingness to leave her tradition and their willingness to hunt her and her followers down - difference (and jealousy/fear perhaps) unfortunately breeds contempt, particularly

I'd see the druids as possibly having no Gift and/or less commonly, different combinations of "Magical Air" and "(In)Offensive to Animals" with only some having a Gentle Gift and the accompanying potential. The druids (and particularly the bards) were apparently quite involved in their communties even if a bit revered/feared, so the adverse effects of the ArM5 Gift/"Magical Air" could be difficult, in a way simialr to David's concerns regarding galdramen being Gifted in Iceland under ArM5 rules. Less of an issue under ArM4.

Diedne and her initial breakaway followers would then be drawn from those druids with this wider potential ie. the (Gentle) Gift. This in itself could be reason enough for the split as above leading to conflict between the two branches of the Celtic mystery.

Jarkman

"Gift influence seems to have infinite penetration against all forms of magic resistance, except Parma, against which it has none whatsoever. Very, very, odd..." - David W.

I've had an idea bout this - perhaps Gift influence should have a penetration score! ie. treat it like a Major Malediction curse or similar that has a persisiting spell-like effect.

Consider, the basic Gift has an arbitrary penetration total of 15 for argument's sake. This could probably be modified by some or all the following factors IMO:

+ a magus highest Arts score OR the a non-Hermetic's highest Supernatural Ability score
?Warping points
? magical aura
? (Enigmatic Wisdom score)
? (score in Vim)

Perhaps the Blatant Gift has a total of 30. the Gentle Gift a total of 0 (or nothing which is different to 0 under ArM5 MR rules as 0 MR still protects if the penetration total is 0). For every 5 points the penetration total exceeds MR, a -1 penalty to any social interactions is accrued.

Let's keep it simple for the moment and leave the base at 15 and say it's a Vim effect.

Medianus, a sample newly Gauntleted Bonisagus magus, wanders into the local town for a drink (He's not the brightest magus and is used to being under the relative social protection of his master's Parma Magica). He is a generalist with his highest Art score being only 5 and has a Parma Magica of 1 and the town is in a non-magical area.

He encounters two stray dogs along the way - as they have 0 magic resistance, the penetration total of his "Gift effect" is 15 + 5 + aura = 20, penetrates and they suffer the effect of the Gift. The dogs back off fearfully and begin barking (ArM5, p75-77). Although he remembers how he used to be teased as a child and how animals always barked at him before he was apprenticed, he smugly thinks: 'I'm a magus now, those animals are right to fear me".

He then encounters another older magus's owl familiar, Bachamuna, a magical owl with a Magical Might score of 20. His penetration total remains the same, ie. 20, but the owl's MR is 20 (equal to it's magical might). Let's say the owl, being a familiar as well as a creature of the Magical Realm normally reacts to the Gift as if it were a mundane human. As the penetration total equals MR, the owl resist's the effects of Medianus' Gift and is somewhat wary/indifferent but he pulls some bread out of hsi pocket and offers it some crumbs. The owl falls for the old trick and he convinces it to sit on his shoulder (it's normally rather tame after all).

He next encounters a fellow newly-Gauntleted apprentice, Averagus, with who he has had met in the past, when their respective master's collaborated on a project. A nice enough chap, if a bit boring, Averagus is out looking for his master's owl, Bachamuna, from the second part of the example. Let's say Averagus has identical statistics to Medianus. Both have "Gift effect" penetration scores of 20, both have MR of 5 (Parma 1 x5 + Vim score Form bonus 0f 5). The effect of each other's Gift penetrates the other's respective MR and both suffer a -2 penalty on social interactions. Both become somewhat tense, suspecting the other is up to something - after all thinks Averagus, why is his master's missing owl sitting on Medianus' shoulder. Likewise, Medianus suspects Averagus has been following him looking to shift the blame onto him.

Neither stop to think this as odd, even though every time they have met before there has been no problem. None of the other elder magi appear to distrust Medianus either (although many think he will never amount to anything).

Of course, every time they've met before Medianus has been under the protection of his masters' significant Parma (probaby at least 6, given that the effective Parma is reduced by 3 if shared with another, ArM5 p66). The feeble penetration total of Avergaus's "Gift effect" cannot penetrate the resultant MR of 15 (Master's shared Parma of at least 3) +5 (Medianus's Form bonus for Vim) = 20 and so Averagus's meagre Gift has had no effect on him before. Mind you, Averagus seemed plenty scared of his master though! (As an apprentice, without Parma and limited Form bonus, Averagus's meagre MR would not stand a chance against the penetration total of a full magus..)

Medianus used to feel that way about his master too, but has got used to him over time (ArM p75) but his master can still scare him into obeying him when he chooses (Medianus normally shares his Master's Parma so his Gift does not affect his master. However his master's more powerful Gift effect would normally penetrate the apprentice's meagre MR even with the Parma shared between them. Medianus might get used to this over time, or optionally a reduced effect might occur. However when his master withdraws the protection of Parma from his apprentice, Medianus would be subjected to the full penetration total of his master's Gift effect.)

Averagus's master now arrives, looking for his somewhat inept apprentice and launches into an interrogation of both of them. With a highest Art of a modest 20 (let's say he's a Vim specialist) and a Parma of 8, he easily ignores the Gift effect of both apprentices (his MR is effectively 60 vs Vim effects). However, he scares the life out of both apprentices, with an effective Gift effect penetration total of 35 (minus the apprentice's effective MR of 20, this exceeds by 15 for a calculated penalty of -3 or equivalent to the normal effect of the Gift). His familiar, despite having a MR of only 20, is probably immune to this effect if not through the familiar bond then through long association. Averagus might also waive this penalty due to long association, but in the circumstances I'd say he'd be pretty scared. Medianus, being a sheltered apprentice wouldn't have any mitigating favour.

Medianus stammers an apology and makes an excuse about an important errand he's just remembered, leaving Averagus to face his master's wrath (again).

Ok, so this is a quick rough-up (Gentle Gift would change a fair bit and lose effectiveness as the magus gains power but still be worth a Major Virtue) but it might solve a few inconsistencies (although none of it needs to be Parma specific to work - Parma could be just cheap "general" MR or could have specific value against the Gift) :

1) Magi could still be feared by their apprentices, but between magi/apprentices of roughly equal power the effect of the Gift would be offset, allowing the functioning of the Order on reasonably social levels. The other magi vs apprentice effect could be usefully retained, but you'd have to allow for the master's Gift effect to wear off on the apprentice over time, which is a bit clumsy.

2) Magi vs creatures with a Might Score becomes less of an issue. Powerful creatures don't react to apprentices + average magi adversely, but might do so to elder magi which sort of fits. Weaker magical creatures fear/distrust even apprentices.

3) Companions would still become more useful perhaps in social interactions.

Anyway, I'm ot sure if this just complicates things... it feels like it would work be...[Message truncated]

That's interesting, but imo what have been far too complex for publication (for what that is worth). I had something similiar in a Hermes Portal article; I linked it to Twilight Afflictions.

Personally I would simply say the Gift (Normal and Blatant) has a penetration of 0. Anything with any MR against Mentem would be protected.

However, David Chart wouldn't like this. People with relics et al would be immune to Gift-influence, as would all creatures with Might. Non-Hermetics with Mentem powers would also be protected; then they might begin to imagine an organisation of their tradition. You might also create very weak Mentem charms and spells to cast on those about you; thus you might avoid the Gift's effect. Wouldn't that be aweful?

Regards

- David W

//"A 'hedge magician' - i. e. cunning folk, natural magician or such, who cannot work Hermetic Magic - does not become a magus - as defined in ArM4 p. 13f, hence capable of working Hermetic Magic - just by joining the Order of Hermes, though he may fill your 'magus slot' in the troupe even if not joining the Order." Sorry, I'm not sure of the reference you cite for this statement - which book, which page?//

A magus in ArM4 is defined as a Gifted individual capable of Hermetic Magic in ArM4 p.13f, as I already said. The chapters 'Characters in Mythic Europe' and 'The Art of Magic' are long, so I will not repeat them here. Tell me if you have any questions about them, and we can discuss them then.
Hedge magician is a less well defined term. So I put it in quotation marks, and explained it myself to mean in the above phrase only practitioners of some magic who do not also practice Hermetic Magic, such as normal cunning folk and natural magicians. I do not need a reference for that.
By joining the Order according to HM p.33, such a hedge magician becomes just a member of the Order, she does not miraculously discover to be also a Hermetic practitioner. Do I need a quotation to prove this?
Some 'hedge magicians' with the Gift may instead of joining according to HM p.33 be trained as real apprentices to magi, but many do not, because their Gift is incomplete - see HM p. 4 - or has been spoilt already. Those successfully trained as apprentices in the above way become magi, of course, and can learn Parma Magica and Certamen.

//However, WG:RE p61-63 suggests to me that this might be possible: the "Outsider Trained in the Order" prohibits the character from starting with scores in Certamen or Parma Magica (or Order of Hermes Lore) but does not go so far as to prohibit them from learning these skills. Similarly the Flaw: "Originally Trained in an Incompatible System" makes it difficult to learn Parma (and Arts) reflected by a -1 to the normal ArM4 template score but does not prohibit it to characters that started training under another system.//
'Outsider Trained in the Order' does not completely prevent a Gifted individual from being trained as a magus later, so of course also does not prevent the later acquisition of the Parma Magica or Certamen.
'Originally Trained in an Incompatible System' is a flaw for magus who first has learned an incompatible system like natural magic, then was trained as a magus, and as such could also learn Parma and Certamen.

//Since Parma predates Hermetic Theory, although it is related to it (Mercurian origin, Bonisagus), under ArM4 there appears to be no reason why it couldn't be taught to a previous hedge magician that joins ex-Misc...//
There is the hard rules reason of ArM4 p.55: "Hermetic skill may only be purchased by magi of the Order of Hermes."

//... being chased by Hermetic magi would be a great way to build up exposure XP to improve your Parma, eh?//
Especially for characters with the Major Personality Flaw Optimistic. ;-)

Kind regards,

Berengar

//"This was seen by David Chart, too - so ArM5 members of the Cult of Mercury did rarely meet in person but to perform these rituals, and violence within the Cult got punished rigidly. Still that Cult had problems, and disintegrated together with the western Roman empire. See ArM5 p.9."

Sure, that's fine but I mean the ruling mundanes of the Roman Empire tolerating a semi-organised bunch of paranoid, envious, creepy mages that get together now and again to invoke massively destructive rituals on the Empire's enemies - seems a bit naive don't you think if every magus the current Caesar or the rest of the ruling aristocrats meets makes them feel creeped out and distrustful of them.//

The effect of the Gift on mundanes and animals is not new. ArM4 p.17 has already: "The Gift of magic, though precious, makes people and animals around magi ill at ease. Because of this, all rolls that magi make to make a good impression on or inspire the trust of mundane people or animals suffer a -3 penalty." Mundanes always saw the magi - and Mercurians - as creepy and untrustworthy. Also the penalty to social interaction rolls was -3 in ArM4 as in ArM5. Whether magi are considered people in the above quotation - hence the normal Gift is affecting interactions among them, too - is dubious and in need of clarification, though: the second phrase appears to deny it.

I also do not see why individuals of bad reputation but proven skill would not be suffered to gather together in a somewhat more reputable - and verrry probably closely supervised - religious institution working strictly for the benefit of the Roman Empire.
The Empire often relied on such specially instituted cults to integrate people closer into society: think of the Augustales made up nearly exclusively of Liberti, or of Augustus' reform of town districts.
The Jews in the Empire of course had the Outsider flaw (either that from ArM4 or ArM5) resulting in an undeletable Bad Reputation, but their synagogues were in every major or port city nevertheless.
Also being a legionary - an uncouth longterm mercenary, though under strict discipline - certainly caused a bad reputation among most civilians. Neverless the Empire rested on the shoulders of the legions.

//David's concerns regarding galdramen being Gifted in Iceland under ArM5 rules.//
The galdramen - and in consequence the LoFaI Iceland - are not really feasible any more in ArM5. But LoFaI is mostly a campaign setting to take or leave anyway, so must be allowed to be stronger affected by a version change than core parts of the ArM Mythic Europe. There was a long 'Holy Cow'-thread on this board about things not to change from ArM4 to ArM5, and IIRC LoFaI material was never mentioned there.

Kind regards,

Berengar

>>>The effect of the Gift on mundanes and animals is not new. ArM4 p.17 has already: "The Gift of magic, though precious, makes people and animals around magi ill at ease.<<<

Simply 'ill at ease' in ArM4 and prior editions.

Compare to ArM5:

"The Gift has a *strong* emotional effect on those around the Gifted person, making them *suspicious* and *mistrustful* of the Gifted individual, inspiring *envy*. As a result, social interactions are *very* difficult for the Gifted."

>>> Because of this, all rolls that magi make to make a good impression on or inspire the trust of mundane people or animals suffer a -3 penalty."

Inspire trust. I aways read 'inspiring trust' as an active attempt to win trust. Getting someone to do something that they wouldn't automatically do. i.e. Something needing a Social Skill roll.

Under ArM5 the magus is automatically, suspected, mistrusted and envied.

>>>Mundanes always saw the magi - and Mercurians - as creepy and untrustworthy.<<<

Under ArM4 and below, they were creepy and so it was more difficult to trust them. Under ArM5 they are not creepy, rather you are suspicious of them. You are mistrustful of them. You envy them.

This change was aimed at ensuring companions are prominent in all sagas. I understand that some SGs found that most players were taking their magi out on stories all the time. Companions were not being played.

Personally, in all the sagas I have been in, companions were very prominent. As many of the stories absorbed a season of study/lab work, and death was a risk, sending a magus out was not the first choice. Imo a bit of saga advice was all that was required. If a player still wishes to send his magus on every story, well fine imo. Let his peers race ahead in magical power, as he sorts out the covenant's problems and risks his neck...

ArM5 now strong-arm's troupe play-style. In ensuring the necessity of companions there are huge knock-on consequences. Undermining ME history and prior setting material are two of them. Imo the new ArM5 Gift rules is a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

In applying such a play-style straightjacket to ArM5, David Chart has alienated a section of the fanbase. He has pleased a section who appear to have been playing it a similar way anyway. So was making the game narrower, on-balance, a good idea? Who knows, I can only register my disapproval.

Regards

- David W

Well, the only thing that's new in ArM5 about the working of the normal Gift on 'mundane' people appears to be the inspired envy.

If my presence makes people ill at ease, they will be suspicious and mistrustful of me - after all, they have problems of empathizing with me. But likely they will not envy me for that.

-3 to all social rolls to make a good impression and/or inspire trust made social interactions quite difficult already in ArM4. If you started with an average Com 0, your effective Com became -3: very inept, and just before most exceptionally inept, in relating to others (cf. ArM4 p. 31).
An old ArM4 magus with very high Guile, Intrigue, Leadership could shrug off that effect and even go to synods, of course; but that guy could have handled solid envy on top as well: he might have even thought that he deserved it. ;-)

Kind regards,

Berengar

>>>Well, the only thing that's new in ArM5 about the working of the normal Gift on 'mundane' people appears to be the inspired envy.<<<

Would that it did.

In addition, there is the reputation model/analogy:

"When roleplaying a character dealing with a maga, have him act as though she has a well-established reputation for dishonesty and unreliability, and for undeserved privilege of whatever sort is most important to him. ..."

This goes on for about 800 words.

Then there are the 'First Impression' examples. These go on for over a thousand words.

The functioning of the ArM5 Gift has been glued, screwed, nailed and welded to the floor; or at least that was the intention. Imo, the reputation model is conceptually flawed wrt the intent.

All-in-all the canon affect is at an extreme of how the Gift in previous editions might have been played.

Regards

- David W

Well, the descriptions on ArM5 p. 75f apparently are just trying to convey what happens in a medieval context if somebody consistently makes everybody else - like in ArM4 - feel 'ill at ease', and relates to others as if his Com and Prs attributes were three lower than they actually are.
It does so by giving indications which can be followed also by a storyguide or player not familiar with medieval society - so it describes what she shall imagine when playing her characters: "... have him act as though she has a well-established reputation ...".
Being creepy in the middle ages, when every - even small - community basically was in charge of its own well-being and *had* to rely on the often less than educated judgement of its members to plot its course through hostile time, does not compare with being creepy in a modern city, where businesslike dealings among strangers are the rule. People in the middle ages most of the time would make decisions about a creepy stranger based on their - creeped out - gut feelings, treating him as if these feelings were true: were an ArM Reputation of that stranger indeed.

Still a creepy stranger or a Jew outside of his community (Outsider flaw => Bad Reputation in ArM4 and ArM5) could and did travel under such conditions, but had to be very careful and alert, and should try to get official sanction for his travels.
It might have helped those unfamiliar with medieval society to state one - IMO indeed quite obvious - fact clearly in the 'First Impressions' chapter on p.76: namely that the examples given assume that the traveling group does not carry letters of introduction or pilgrim signs, is not accompanied by a runner/messenger of the local lord, and has no business with the approached parties but finding shelter for the night. This lack of sanction already causes suspicion quite independently of the creepyness of the Gifted person.
It also might have helped to state that the described reactions of the villagers, the inn-keeper and the monks already were mitigated in various degrees by Christian compassion and doctrine, the main reason why not every suspicion leads to the outright refusal of aid.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Berengar wrote:
"A magus in ArM4 is defined as a Gifted individual capable of Hermetic Magic in ArM4 p.13f, as I already said. The chapters 'Characters in Mythic Europe' and 'The Art of Magic' are long, so I will not repeat them here. Tell me if you have any questions about them, and we can discuss them then.

Sorry, I now know where you're referring to.It's where I thought you were referring. I was just confused by the "p.13f" notation - I thought you were referring to something between p130 and p139.

I don't read this as an absolute definition, after all HM came out after ArM4, so the ArM4 corebook didn't necessarily take into account the idea of hedgies joining the Order and whether they could learn Parma. I don't recall reading any clarification of this in a later supplement - my interpretation is perhaps looser I'll admit.

"Hedge magician is a less well defined term. So I put it in quotation marks, and explained it myself to mean in the above phrase only practitioners of some magic who do not also practice Hermetic Magic, such as normal cunning folk and natural magicians. I do not need a reference for that."

No you don't - I'm not trying to be pedantic, just seeking a common frame of reference. IMO there are different levels of hedge magician, some of which approach "magus-level" power in the ArM4 setting.

"By joining the Order according to HM p.33, such a hedge magician becomes just a member of the Order, she does not miraculously discover to be also a Hermetic practitioner. Do I need a quotation to prove this?

Again, you don't need a quotation and I apologise if I've annoyed you unintentionally. I just thought I'd misunderstood something in my reading. My point is I'd always considered that being able to cast Hermetic magic (or the "full" Gift for that matter) *was not* a requirement in order to learn Parma under ArM4. At least it wasn't clear to me that is was expressly forbidden from my reading of it. ArM5 has now clarified this issue under it's paradigm, requiring the (ArM5) Gift *but not* Hermetic magic/opened Arts.

This is of course good news for hedge magicians with the (ArM5) Gift, however common or uncommon they are in the new canon.

"Some 'hedge magicians' with the Gift may instead of joining according to HM p.33 be trained as real apprentices to magi, but many do not, because their Gift is incomplete - see HM p. 4 - or has been spoilt already. Those successfully trained as apprentices in the above way become magi, of course, and can learn Parma Magica and Certamen."

I agree, but I'm more interested in those that don't learn Hermetic abilities in ArM4.

"'Outsider Trained in the Order' does not completely prevent a Gifted individual from being trained as a magus later, so of course also does not prevent the later acquisition of the Parma Magica or Certamen.
''Originally Trained in an Incompatible System' is a flaw for magus who first has learned an incompatible system like natural magic, then was trained as a magus, and as such could also learn Parma and Certamen."
"There is the hard rules reason of ArM4 p.55: "Hermetic skill may only be purchased by magi of the Order of Hermes."

All true, but again dependent on a literal interpretation. I consider "magi of the Order of Hermes" to encompass any member of the Order with the "full" Gift in ArM4. IMO, this would include Hermetic magi but also any hedge magicians that have joined the Order who have the "full" ArM4 Gift and therefore could *potentially* learn Hermetic magic (ie some but not all hedge magicians from say the more powerful traditions like sahir, galdramen, maybe even some natural magicians and Larta magi depending on how you portray them).

I'd still argue there's nothing special about ArM4 Parma (or indeed Certamen, although it's virtually useless unless you have Art scores really and I'd expect few hedgies would bother learning much Order of Hermes Lore) that requires Hermetic Arts to be open before learning it. Canonically, even under ArM4, Bonisagus and the other Founders learned it before Hermetic Theory was even developed. I'd argue that in ArM4, the 'Outsider Trained in the Order" Virtue would allow learning Parma even if the Arts were unopened, provided someone (probably *not* your hedge magician parens) taught it to your character during their apprenticeship or even later.

I suspect you'll still disagree with me. I also think you're probably correct in your interpretation, as far as written in "official" ArM4 sources. That's fine with me too. Just because the ArM5 corebook has clarified this in favour of my opinion, doesn't matter if we're discussing ArM4, as I'm sure you'd be the first to point out to me.

Thank you for being tolerant - I apologise for the delay in replying.

Jarkman

Berengar wrote:
"The effect of the Gift on mundanes and animals is not new. ArM4 p.17 has already: "The Gift of magic, though precious, makes people and animals around magi ill at ease. Because of this, all rolls that magi make to make a good impression on or inspire the trust of mundane people or animals suffer a -3 penalty." Mundanes always saw the magi - and Mercurians - as creepy and untrustworthy. Also the penalty to social interaction rolls was -3 in ArM4 as in ArM5."

Ah, yes - very true. I got carried away with my analogy. Mercurians were therefore always creepy, although presumably some (Jerbiton's forbears?) were gently Gifted which may have mitigated this somewhat.

"Whether magi are considered people in the above quotation - hence the normal Gift is affecting interactions among them, too - is dubious and in need of clarification, though: the second phrase appears to deny it."

This is the critical part. I'd always thought the vs mundanes *not* magi/powerful hedge magicians/magical creatures part of the Gift effect made sense in ArM4. The need to wided the effect in ArM5 to include these groups puzzles me a bit. I'd always felt Mercurians didn't really need a metagame justification to be paranoid of each other.

"I also do not see why individuals of bad reputation but proven skill would not be suffered to gather together in a somewhat more reputable - and verrry probably closely supervised - religious institution working strictly for the benefit of the Roman Empire.
The Empire often relied on such specially instituted cults to integrate people closer into society: think of the Augustales made up nearly exclusively of Liberti, or of Augustus' reform of town districts.
The Jews in the Empire of course had the Outsider flaw (either that from ArM4 or ArM5) resulting in an undeletable Bad Reputation, but their synagogues were in every major or port city nevertheless.
Also being a legionary - an uncouth longterm mercenary, though under strict discipline - certainly caused a bad reputation among most civilians. Neverless the Empire rested on the shoulders of the legions."

This is an good point. Thank you for the real world example.

"The galdramen - and in consequence the LoFaI Iceland - are not really feasible any more in ArM5. But LoFaI is mostly a campaign setting to take or leave anyway, so must be allowed to be stronger affected by a version change than core parts of the ArM Mythic Europe. There was a long 'Holy Cow'-thread on this board about things not to change from ArM4 to ArM5, and IIRC LoFaI material was never mentioned there."

Sure, LoFaI is certainly not "mainstream" Ars in any way, I agree. Neither, it seems, is the idea of strong hedge magic traditions capable of challenging the Order, as David has alreay pointed out. I admit I'm probably in the (discerning? :P) minority view here.

I'd be surprised if anyone (perhaps even not the authors) would consider any of it 'Holy Cow' material. However, it certainly made an interesting, almost self-contained setting and for what it's worth, I liked the mechanics and flavour of the trollsynir and galdramen and would have loved to have played in a Saga set there or in an Erik the Red inspired "Norselands" style Saga stretching from Scandinavia through the Faeroes/Shetlands/Hebrides & Iceland all the way to Greenland and Mythical markland/Helluland/Vinland.

It suggested to me just how far the Ars system and Saga style of play could be stretched to fit a campaign model outside of the core Mythic Europe setting (more so than say LotN or Blood & Sand did) while still retaining key recognisable elements and quality. I find the possibility of creating/playing in Ars Sagas set outside of the core Mythic Europe Rhine/Provencal/Alps/Rome tribunals or even a near-total non-Hermetic style Saga interesting - as David commented, currently ArM5 seems to be making this difficult in practice.

This is odd in some ways because I find Green Ronin's "Medieval Player's Handbook" also by David Chart, a great resource (even if d20 based and not Ars Magica) and very stimulating for ideas. It seems some of the streamlined nature of the latest incarnation of d20 has spilled over in to ArM5 which seems like a good thing IMO. (Notice how there are now multiple Craft & Profession skills defined similar to the d20 skills... etc.).

Jarkman

David Woods wrote:
"ArM5 now strong-arm's troupe play-style. In ensuring the necessity of companions there are huge knock-on consequences. Undermining ME history and prior setting material are two of them. Imo the new ArM5 Gift rules is a sledgehammer to crack a nut."

I don't think it's quite as bad as that, but it does seem to make it hard to convert previous material regarding the peripheral tribunals (and not just LoFaI). Oddly, although by seeming to promote companions in play, it restricts many of the more colourful (and powerful) companion options that could provide a more varied and richer Ars experience.

"In applying such a play-style straightjacket to ArM5, David Chart has alienated a section of the fanbase. He has pleased a section who appear to have been playing it a similar way anyway. So was making the game narrower, on-balance, a good idea? Who knows, I can only register my disapproval."

I still think ArM5 will be better than ArM4 was - time will tell, but I also think keeping a broader range of playing styles and possible Sagas could have been retained while still catering to the majority playing style.

Jarkman

//I consider "magi of the Order of Hermes" to encompass any member of the Order with the "full" Gift in ArM4.//
That's not an assumption which would ruin an ArM4 game, to be sure.

//I suspect you'll still disagree with me. I also think you're probably correct in your interpretation, as far as written in "official" ArM4 sources.//
I think we had two subtly different points to make.
I wished to point out a difference between "official" ArM4 and ArM5, and that this difference was in favour of ArM5 hedge magicians. So I had to stick to rather strict 'rules philology'.
You have an idea of how a campaign you like to play does work, and read the rules that way. And it happens that in ArM5 the rules are also clearly written your way. I reckon, this proves that others - and you can include me there - like your idea too.

Kind regards,

Berengar

//I'd always thought the vs mundanes *not* magi/powerful hedge magicians/magical creatures part of the Gift effect made sense in ArM4.//
I also never included Gifted or partially Gifted persons into those ill at ease because of the ArM4 normal Gift. The possibility to read the ArM4 p.17 quote to include them among the 'people' affected appears to me wholly theoretical. To read it that way, one must assume that the 'mundane' in the 2nd phrase is a gross, completely unmotivated blunder of the author - not an assumption you wish to make when reading rules.

//The need to wided the effect in ArM5 to include these groups puzzles me a bit. I'd always felt Mercurians didn't really need a metagame justification to be paranoid of each other.//
I am still in 'rules philology' mode here: determining what exactly is written and meant. I have not yet formed a final opinion about this change.
My judgement will depend on the interworking of this concept with the other new rules, and the plausibility of its social consequences.
There is e. g. this tricky problem of lowering your Parma to receive a healing or longevity ritual performed by some magus you have only ever met with your Parma up. Imagine that this magus is the CrCo specialist whom qcifer designed on the 'Cooperation and Longevity Rituals' thread: Blatant Gift, Disfigured, even seen from under the Parma not a likeable person. Would you keep concentrating to hold your Parma down and let him finish his job on you? What kind of Concentration roll would you have to make for that?

//I find the possibility of creating/playing in Ars Sagas set outside of the core Mythic Europe Rhine/Provencal/Alps/Rome tribunals or even a near-total non-Hermetic style Saga interesting - as David commented, currently ArM5 seems to be making this difficult in practice.//
I see only that certain types of campaigns at the border do not work any more.
Just making for every 'non-book' religion on the other side an organized non-hermetic tradition of magic defying the Order was not an imaginative or promising concept from the very beginning - though some of the results were interesting.
Perhaps in ArM5 we get away from that pattern?

Kind regards,

Berengar

Berengar wrote;
"I think we had two subtly different points to make. I wished to point out a difference between "official" ArM4 and ArM5, and that this difference was in favour of ArM5 hedge magicians. So I had to stick to rather strict 'rules philology'."

Fair enough. I thought you made a valid point in context, without malice.

"You have an idea of how a campaign you like to play does work, and read the rules that way. And it happens that in ArM5 the rules are also clearly written your way. I reckon, this proves that others - and you can include me there - like your idea too."

I'm not sure if it proves anything or was necessarily intentional in design (given how the other changes in ArM5 affect hedge magicians) but I welcome the clarification. It's nice to know that someone else thinks hedgies can have an important place in Saga storylines.

Regards,

Jarkman

"To read it that way, one must assume that the 'mundane' in the 2nd phrase is a gross, completely unmotivated blunder of the author - not an assumption you wish to make when reading rules."

Yes, I agree.

"I am still in 'rules philology' mode here: determining what exactly is written and meant. I have not yet formed a final opinion about this change. My judgement will depend on the interworking of this concept with the other new rules, and the plausibility of its social consequences. There is e. g. this tricky problem of lowering your Parma to receive a healing or longevity ritual performed by some magus you have only ever met with your Parma up. Imagine that this magus is the CrCo specialist whom qcifer designed on the 'Cooperation and Longevity Rituals' thread: Blatant Gift, Disfigured, even seen from under the Parma not a likeable person. Would you keep concentrating to hold your Parma down and let him finish his job on you? What kind of Concentration roll would you have to make for that?"

This is an extreme example, but examples at the extremes are often useful to illustrate potential flaws or abuses in any system and Ars is no exception. It's a good point.

"I see only that certain types of campaigns at the border do not work any more."

For example? I'm interested in your thoughts here.

"Just making for every 'non-book' religion on the other side an organized non-hermetic tradition of magic defying the Order was not an imaginative or promising concept from the very beginning - though some of the results were interesting. Perhaps in ArM5 we get away from that pattern?"

Yes some of the results were interesting, some were unworkable from a flavour or mechanics point of view (volkhvy spring to mind). Given that ArM4 consisted of material submitted by interested authors rather than a coherent set of solicited manuscripts according to a clear vision by a line editor this is hardly surprising. The ad hoc pattern was becoming detrimental to the line through sheer unwieldiness of conflicting visions.

Despite my comments regarding some aspects of ArM5, I am quite confident that the ArM5 line is in good hands from what I've seen and what is promised so far. I won't necessarily agree with everything, but that's the price I'm willing to pay I suppose.

Jarkman

"It's nice to know that someone else thinks hedgies can have an important place in Saga storylines."

I think that hedgies - especially cunning folk and natural magicians - in ArM4 already have become very important as the representatives of the medieval beliefs and ideas about magic. I hope we keep them as such in ArM5.

Kind regards,

Berengar

//"I see only that certain types of campaigns at the border do not work any more."

For example? I'm interested in your thoughts here.//

What's not working any more in ArM5 are well organized groups of powerful and flexible non-hermetic practitioners spiritually leading local people.
So enticing player character magi by the carrot of an exotic magical tradition to study into interaction with a foreign culture must be done more subtly - but might in consequence do more justice to to that culture, too.

Kind regards,

Berengar

"I think that hedgies - especially cunning folk and natural magicians - in ArM4 already have become very important as the representatives of the medieval beliefs and ideas about magic. I hope we keep them as such in ArM5."

Yes, I think CFs and NMS add a great "medieval" flavour to the setting as well. Chart seemed to favour them in his pure d20 release "The Medieval Player's Handbook", which is probably also a reasonable Ars resource regardless of what you think of the d20 system.

Keeping this aspect in ArM5 is not enough in itself though, I think the opportunity to improve on balancing the concept is waiting to be acted upon and would be a great addition to the game.

Jarkman

Berengar wrote:

"What's not working any more in ArM5 are well organized groups of powerful and flexible non-hermetic practitioners spiritually leading local people."

Yes, David W.'s issues about LoFaI being perhaps the obvious example, although significantly isolated from the rest of the setting (and not a common sub-setting for Sagas). It makes sahir a bit more difficult as well, but not quite as drastically.

It's probably not that hard to work around things in the majority of cases in ArM5 if you accept the following views of the two major issues affecting hedgies under ArM5:

1) ArM5 hedge magicians don't necessarily need to _all_ be Gifted (it's not meant to be that common anyway), at least strictly not unless you want them to be able to open Art scores later or gain Supernatural Abilities according to the ArM5 rules (ArM5, p166). The ArM5 Gift seems closely tied to two main major magic traditions - Mercurian and Druidic (I'll just gloss over Bjornaer as an anomalous/unique Gifted primal Germanic shapeshifter at this point to make things easier) but primarily seems to reflect a *potential* in ArM5, that is the potential to learn Hermetic magic (and perhaps Mercurian and Druidic magic also) ... other, by implication lesser, traditions may not need the Gift at all but then cannot achieve the flexibility, generalist capability and pwoerful potential of Hermetic magic - even if rare accomplished individuals can supercede some Hermetic limits on rare occaassions...

(The easy option is to House-rule "Gentle Gift" as a Minor Virtue but this seems a bit like cheating in a way and probably not an option anytime soon...)

So, how about:

Gruagach/Trollsynir don't need the Gift (can't learn Hermetic magic anyway, even in ArM4), give them "Offensive to Animals" and a Major 'Social' Story Flaw instead perhaps. Make them susceptibel to warping and as they warp, the gain "Magical Air" as their Major Supernatural Flaw and perhaps "Disfigured" etc. Probably easier than the rest...

Galdramen *don't really* need the Gift (only rare individuals might be interested in learning Arts) but you could give them Minor Flaws of a 'Social' theme - Story or Personality or whatever to simulate the less disruptive "ArM4 Gift efefct" in ArM5 terms. You'd have to reinterpret their ArM4 Twilight point gains into an ArM5 paradigm somehow, but I think the new warping rules could handle that with a bit of thought...

Sahir might not all be Gifted (perhaps more often than not would IMO), but perhaps "the Gentle Gift" could be a Free Virtue, like Ex Misc Hermetics get a free Minor Hermetic Virtue but instead getting a free Major Hermetic Virtue balanced with say a compulsory Minor Flaw or two (even a major flaw?): "Offensive to Animals" or "Mentor" or "Obligation" or "Vow" etc to again simulate an "ArM4 Gift effect" instead of whacking them with a full ArM5 Gift. How you'd explain this "in flavour" is a bit trickier I suppose...

Perhaps potential sahirs without the Gentle Gift never get chosen or trained (or are the exception) because they are quickly neutralised in the predominantly Islamic society of the Levant - a weak point to the argument perhaps.

NM and cunning-folk don't need to be ArM5 Gifted at all IMO - some might be, but these would be exceptions and chosen because the player is interested to see what kind of roleplaying/Ars experience is ahd when a character learns Hermetic magic after a being initially trained in a minor tradition.

Similarly for more culturally integrated traditions - too tired to detail examples, but I think you get the idea anyway. I think you could rework some of David W's gripes with this approach, unless I've missed something here...

Sure, the flavour text on ArM5 p9 suggests the Gift as a major cause of paranoia etc. but if you assume the Gift is not necessary for any of the minor traditions (and perhaps some of the more major ones), things can be reworked.

2) ArM5 hedge magicians can't have *general* MR - a bit harder. Still, they can have "sub-Form-specific" MR (eg. Charm vs Fire) and perhaps even stongers forms up to even "attenuated Magic Realm-specific" MR (eg. MR vs Magic Realm attacks = half Magic Might of commanded entity for say sahirs or galdramen or spirit masters or necromancers etc.).

The line editor has even commented that he might consider allowing this on the Berklist and hasn't in fact ruled this form of MR out as written in the ArM5 corebook.

The default option is "Hedgie Bling-bling" where a hedgie carries around enough *specific* charms vs XYZ to patch together an effective *general* MR (or pretty close to it) - presumably of limited power and a bit unwieldy. Somebody commented on the Berklist that this wasn''t perhaps that far-fetched when compared to medieval folklore - I can perhaps see it, but game mechanics wise it seems unwieldy...

I don't see this as such an issue now compared to what I thought previously.

Gruagach/trollsynir are the trickiest but could perhaps have:

Potency score provides 1:1 "Magic Realm specific" MR vs attacks from the Magic Realm (and perhaps even the Faerie Realm or less likely the Infernal realm but not the Divine?).
This would provide them with attenuated MR which between themselves may not make a big difference but disrupts their power level compared to say trolls/giants who have a magic might score and similar abilities - a bit of a problem, esp in LoFaI. However, they might be able to eventually transform into creatures with a Might score, like David C's sugegsted Inner Merinitia (Faerie) Mystery 'Quendalon's Gift' in a Hermes Portal article- you could link this with warping/aflcitions to balance this somehow...

They could even have 2-3x their Potency score as "Magic Realm specific" MR and I don't think things would break, even with additional "specific" MR bonuses - a Hermetic's Parma still grants a superior 5x Ability score and you can add Form bonuses to it...

Shapeshift score then provides "specific" MR vs any magical attack attempting to alter their form against their will, regardless of Realm of origin (maybe not Divine?) - effectively as "specific" MR vs MuCo style attacks.

Jotun Affinity scores provide "specific" MRs vs the Elements it manipulates eg. "Jotun Affinity with Fire" provides "specific" MR vs Fire based attacks, regardless of Realm of origin (except again perhaps Divine?).

Second Sight, Hamfarir, Curse, Gift etc are a bit trickier - too tired to think on this now, but the principle is there and as long as Parma is visibly better, even 3x an Ability score in "Magic Realm-specific" MR (the most useful Realm by far, especially against Hermetic magic) wouldn't break the Glass Ceiling and wouldn't leave the "major" ArM4 hedge traditions grovelling...

Well, not immediately :-)

Hedgies still take a significa...[Message truncated]