Here is my first take on how to do Spell Optimization in the new edition.

Spell Optimization for ArM5
A mastered spell can be re-invented to optimize it and lower its level, allowing it to be easier to cast and have higher penetration. To optimize a spell a Magi’s Lab Total must be more than double the spell level. Lab texts do not add to the Lab Total when optimizing a spell.
The Optimization Number is the number of levels that the original spell level will be reduced by to get the level of the Optimized spell. The maximum Optimization Number is the lesser of the original spell level/3 rounded down and your mastery level with that spell. The Magi can of course use a lower Optimization number to speed up the optimization process.
Points gained towards optimizing a spell per season = Lab Total – (Original Spell Level x 2) – Optimization Number. When the total points gained = the Optimization Number the Optimized spell is completed and can be learned normally by others if they gain access to the lab text for it. Mastering an Optimized spell is harder than mastering a normal spell, to reflect this the spell mastery ability for an Optimized Spell is reduced by the Optimization number for all purposes except ability advancement. No Special Abilities for Spell mastery of the Optimized spell are gained until the total score is positive.

Example: Pilum of Fire is level 20, Ignatius wants to make an optimized version of it, this will require a minimum Lab Total of 41 and mastery of the spell. Ignatius has a CrIg Lab Total of 46 and a Spell Mastery of 5 in Pilum. One third of 20 is 6-2/3 rounded down to 6, Ignatius’ spell mastery is only level 5 so that is the maximum Optimization number he can choose. He chooses to go for maximum optimization. He will gain 46-40-5=1 point towards optimization, so in 5 seasons he will have an Optimized level 15 Pilum of Fire. If he chooses to master it he won’t get any mastery benefits until his spell mastery ability is at level 6 since he has to overcome the 5 optimization levels.

Why not keep the same logic as before ?

Int + Mt versus 9+ mag of spell

& you cap the optimisation to the mastery level.

Ex : pilum of fire 20 w mastery of 5, MT 7(9) +3(int) =

13 vs 12 so he can't optimise the spell.

Lab total was double te lvl of the spell.

//Spell Optimization for ArM5 //

Points gained towards optimizing a spell per season = Lab Total – Original Spell Level – (Optimization Number x 5). When the total points gained = the (Optimization Number x 5) the Optimized spell is completed. The optimized labtext can then be learned same as usual. Mastering an Optimized spell is harder than mastering a normal spell, to reflect this the spell mastery ability for an Optimized Spell starts at Optimization Number.

Example: Pilum of Fire is level 20, Ignatius filus of Firus wants to make an optimized version of it. Ignatius has a CrIg Lab Total of 46 and a Spell Mastery of 5 in Pilum. One third of 20 is 6-2/3 rounded down to 6, Ignatius’ spell mastery is only level 5 so that is the maximum Optimization number he can choose. He chooses to go for maximum optimization. He will gain 46-20-25=1 point towards optimization, so in 25 seasons he will have an Optimized level 15 Pilum of Fire. He keeps any mastery benefits & can pursue his mastery of the spell. should he have studied Ig for a few seasons, he might have saved a few seasons. Lab total of 50-20-25= 5 = 5 seasons

Example 2: Firus master of fire learned a stronger version of the spell in his young age. Ball of Abysmal Flames 35 & wants to optimise it for his filus. Mastery =8, he chooses to optimize it by one rank since he also has other things to do. Lab total = 80 - 35 - 25 = 20 = 2 seasons & hense creates a lab text for ball of abysmal flames lvl30.

hmmm.. I kinda like this ...

Interesting variant, but I wouldn't have them keep mastery benefits, specifically because mastery partially duplicates optimization by making a spell easier to cast, which is why I made mastering the Optimized spell harder. Trying to avoid power creep.

Of course it would be nice if someone else would chime in, just because two people agree doesn't mean that the greater group is going to accept or agree with our vision.

> Of course it would be nice if someone else would chime in, just because two people agree doesn't
> mean that the greater group is going to accept or agree with our vision.

Ask and ye shall receive. I am of the opinion that, between the 4th ed optimization and what is being suggested here, particularly incorporating mastery level into the process, that the 4th ed version is the better.

First, I'll start by saying that I love, no, I LURVE, the new mastery rules. This is the sort of felxibility I felt magi of the order should be able to get if they practiced. The only aspect that I think might need a change is that a fifth magnitude spell is as easily mastered as a tenth+ magnitude spell, but given this new 5 times the experience cost situation, I don't see a way to make progress proportional without making it mastery completely unrealistic for higher magnitudes.

Anyway, my outside the story reason for preferring 4th ed version is that the changes being proposed here just make it way too easy. Spell optimization should not be easy.

My in story/feel of the process reason is based on my perception of what spell mastery involves and what the optimization process involves. Spell mastery involves being good at casting the spell/using it. You can gain it just by casting the spell over and over again, and for role-play purposes, doing so and trying to cast better in a certain way. Thus, someone who plans to use the first or next level of mastery to be able to cast without gestures, is practicing by not using gestures, or maybe starting by using subtle gestures etc. And does this over and over. Spell mastery is a matter of knowing how to use the equipment really well.

Opimization, however, is more indepth knowledge of all sorts of aspects of spell creation that have nothing to do with mastery. It's real theory stuff that has to be worked through over time. To put it poorly it's more in depth.

So basically, I see mastery as imrpoved use of the spell you got, and MT as the ability to take it apart internally.

A very poor analogies would be:

gunslinging- mastery involves rigging or buying a good holster for quick draw, attaching a stock to a rifle to give a better brace and lessen kickback, or even just getting use to shooting that colt .45 and compensating for the kickback, learning to time drawing the hammer back with your hand to get that slightly quicker rate of fire. None of these change the nature of a pistol or rifle themselves. Now the MT optimization version would be designing a whole new pistol so that it weighs less but can still fire without breaking, has less tension on the trigger so the hammer cocks back without needing to use your other hand, or lessen the kickback by the design of the gun. Each of these make it easier for some with less experience in firearms/lower art scores to shoot the firearm/cast the spell. But someone looking to change the gun design gets no real help from knowing how to jury rig the originally designed gun.

Anyway, my take on it. No matter how poorly described.

I don't agree with your point... well not in full.

Magi create, use & design magic. Hense they are both the one that desigh the colt, create it & use it. By having everything done by the same person you get one specialized person that is the best suited to reingeneer your gun.

I do agree that one needs to be more cerebral to reingeneer a spell but all magi are.. & those that are less won't loose their time optimizing spells, they will ask someone else to do it.

But having a caracter that was somewhat a specialist at optimisation, I sympathise with the 4th ed rules regarding optimisation but they limited so much that even old magi could not optimise spells above lvl 35 easilly....

> I don't agree with your point... well not in full.

It may come down to just agreeing to disagree on it. Perhaps we shall even come to agree that there will be a lot of house rules and disagreeing agreement on what they should be given the changes in 5ed such as virtues, exp, technique shuffle, etc... :)

> Magi create, use & design magic. Hense they are both the one that desigh the colt,
> create it & use it. By having everything done by the same person you get one
> specialized person that is the best suited to reingeneer your gun.

I did say it was a poor analogy. Perhaps a somewhat better, though less described analogy would be programming of a sort. Take spells to be macros used in a program, say a database. The hermetic system is the program itself. Spell mastery constitutes making the macro more efficient as a user of the program would do. Optimization would consitute some tinkering with the program itself.

> But having a caracter that was somewhat a specialist at optimisation, I
> sympathise with the 4th ed rules regarding optimisation but they limited so much
> that even old magi could not optimise spells above lvl 35 easilly....

But given what optimization does, reworking the bounds of magnitude for a given effect, this is done pretty much on the cheap. To me, optimization is like a lesser cousing to a major discovery in original research- a discovery within the bounds of Hermetic magic. The whole point of creating the Hermetic Arts was to have a system that could be used by all magi to a large degree. In so doing, it set a certain base level of complexity for each effect, a base that would matches the complexity the average magus would find it to be (various virtues and flaws making certain aspects easier/harder for individuals).

Now these base guidelines were not inherent to any system that would do what Bonisagus was working toward, but the whole point of the thing was to have one system and this is the one he worked out. So in this, the guidelines are not inherent "flaws" in Hermetic magic, in so far as they are absolute artificial limitations. Nor do they require a major discovery to change. But it is hard to do. Thus why I do not see a reason to tweak the optimization system from 4th ed. --

----though I'm still looking REAL hard at the exp system- *grumble* times 5 exp *grumble* only 2 exposure exp *grumble* 2 1/2 times as long to increase magic theory by exposure *grumble* :)

> I don't think the suggestions we've made for 5th ed. Optimization are all that
> easy as you still require a very good knowledge of the arts in question.

Easy for what we're are discussing, at least as I see it- see the comparison to major discovery above. Like that, the 4th ed rules require 1) you be able to invent the spell in one season anyway- which for the spells worth optimizing requires high arts, 2) have mastered the spell, and THEN 3) have the MT to be able to do it. And then in 4th ed you didn't even get better penetration for it, just an easier to cast spell.

If you simply port over 4th ed. spell optimization, you get greater benefit for the same effort (though granted, the exp advancement makes you take longer to increase your MT). By the method you've proposed, a spellslinger (non lab type) with a MT no higher than the average newly guantleted magus (3) can optimize on the strength of his arts. For me, that should not be possible.

*shrug* Again, this may be an agree to disagree point.

Similar benefits to 4th ed optimisation can be gained from penetration mastery in fifth edition.

Because spells are not directly written down in 5th (there are only lab notes). Optimisation doesn't seem to work as well.

That being said your proposed method seems fine appart from the more difficult specializtion. In fifth ed, all characters make up all of their own spells. Even if the character uses the lab notes of someone else the spell is still their own. For this reason it would be difficult to transmit the spell to another magus. I don't think that the benefit that a character recieves from optimization is at all worth it if they have to loose not only their time but also their specialization levels in the effort.

Here is another view about it.

Int + Mt + Experimentation + Philisophae(*) + Artes Liberales(**) + mastery VS 9 + mag of the spell + Optimisation

To create the optimised spell, the magi must accumulate the difference as if creating original spell.

Max optimisation = Mastery + Philisophae(*) + Artes Liberales(**) or 1/3 of the lvl of the spell ( whichever is lower )

Ex. Spell lvl 45 > 30

4 + 8 + stress die(magi chooses to experiment with no exceptionnal risk)+ 5 + 5 + 5 VS 9 + 9 + 15 ( magi want's to optimise 15 lvl's of the spell which is his maximum) ==> 27 + die Vs 33. Altho the magus is quite impressive in the lab, he a has slim chance to finish this project intact. Realising this he reduces his objective to an optimisation of only one rank ==> 27 + die Vs 23. Hense accumulates atleast 5 points toward optimisation. With luck his project will be finished within a year since he is optimising a spell lvl of 45 with a surplus of 5 + stress die.

ex2. Spell lvl 30 > 20

Same magi ==> 27 + die Vs 25 (wants to shave off 10 lvl's which is the maximum).With luck he will complete this project within a year also. If he were not experimenting, this priject would take 15 seasons(almost 4 years) to complete. 2 points per season toward lvl 30. The magi, having had a bad experience with experimentation desides to forego experimentation & lowers his optimisation to one rank ==> 27 Vs 20 ==> Will create an optimised version of the spell @ lvl 25 in 5 seasons.

*Optimised spell integrates Philisophae knowledges. This adds a requirement for learning the optimised spell which is that you need to have a philisophie score atleast equal to the one used. You can still learn the spell if you don't have it, but you need to add x botch dices. x being the difference between your philisophae & the one used in optimisation. The process also imprints a philosophical side to the spell which is reflected thru your sigil.

**Optimised spell integrates Artes liberales knowledges. This adds a requirement for learning the optimised spell which is that you need to have an Artes Liberales score atleast equal to the one used. You can still learn the spell if you don't have it, but you need to add x botch dices. x being the difference between your Artes Liberales & the one used in optimisation. The process also imprints a Logical side to the spell which is reflected thru your sigil.

Strong sides of This view :

Integrates the Philosophiae & Artes Liberales

Optimisation can be done by a wider variety of Magi

You now have the option of adding flavor to optimisation with spells that follow a specific philosophie or law.

Optimisation is now a matter of research instead of being a seasonal occupation.

I'd appreciate comments ...

"Optimisation was an obscure entry in wizards grimoire, an optional rule at best, as far as our games go."

It all depends on a games needs I guess...

"If you allow optimisation, would you allow new characters to start with optimised spells?"
Of course you do. There are multiple ways of limiting the levels of optimized spells learned by the apprentice. On easy way would be to limit thru merits or have them purchace the unoptimised spell & the optimised spell but I find that the best ways is with a backround. If the player can fit it in his backround thathis master allowed access to one of the most well regarded spell of his alliance then fine. I doubt that he could explain that all the spells he learned are oftimized.

"If you want to allow optimisation, more rules are needed, than merely figuring out how spells are optimised."

True.

Int + Mt + Experimentation + Philisophae(*) + Artes Liberales(**) + mastery VS 9 + mag of the spell + Optimisation

To create the optimised spell, the magi must accumulate the difference as if creating original spell.

Max optimisation = Mastery + Philisophae(*) + Artes Liberales(**) or 1/3 of the lvl of the spell ( whichever is lower )
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* To instill a Philosophiae nature one needs to have the Philosopher minor virtue.

Philosopher: You have been thaugh the principles of philosophie & have chosen to pursue this avenue. You see ethical issues in every day affairs (can add exposure xp to philosophie). You start with 20 extra xp to distribute in Artes Liberales & Philosophie. You follow a specific Philosophic line or can make your own which if you deside to let known will give you a reputation of 2 in that area amonst philosophers.
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I taught to add this since it makes sence for one and makes it a bit more difficult to create optimized spells.