Possible? Probable? An avenue to be explored? I'm thinking about incorporating the possibility in my saga. Of course such a thing will bring plenty of controversy, but that's the whole point I feel. What are some of your ideas regarding this, with the Order basically signing letters of credit to be redeemed at other places (ie Covenants and Tribunals) throughout Europe?

My take is this is that not all Houses would be on board with this. My idea on each House's stance:

Bjoarnaer- Such dealings with filthy money should be beneath wizards.

Bonisagus- We swore not to meddle with mundanes, yet we need mundane goods and services for our convenience, and to allow us freedom to study. This idea has merit.

Criamon- The path of the Enigma is not likely paved in gold or silver.

Ex Miscellenae- Why not?

Flambeau- Such an action would put us in a position of power and even more envy over Mundanes. Either way is acceptable to me. Through such contributions the Crusades were formed, perhaps we could finally direct the Crusades toward Spain, and win back those lands for all time!

Guernicus- This is expressly against strict interpretations of the Code. However, certainly the Code allows for Magi to prosper in changing times, as mundane society continues its encroachment.

Jerbiton- A sound theory, and a tie to mundane society the Order sorely needs. Yet we must be careful, look to how the Jews of England were treated after they lent their funds.

Mercere- Men would look to us with admiration and greed. Our way would become more dangerous if they thought we carried money or notes of currency. They would covet our secret paths and ways. Who then would we serve, the Order or the mundanes?

Merinita- The fair folk have no concept of lucre, and truly neither do we. I fear that in such an endeavor we are the dog that chases the lion. What shall the dog do when it catches it? We should let this pass by, it can lead to no good.

Tremere- An avenue to power and status plainly lies in the accumulation of wealth and debt. But plainly, we must be subtle and discreet. Let the mundanes not know who fund these, let all blame and envy pass to the nobles and Jews and money lenders. We can supply these petty funds, they are well within our means, but if the mundanes thought we had both money and magical power, we would be attacked and suffer their indignant presence.

Tytalus- Were none of you paying attention to the fall of our House? Have none of you heard of who the Master of money is?

Verditius- By all means let us pursue this. We already supply mundanes and nobles with minor magical enchantments. We could become the new nobility...

Different Tribunals would likely have different takes on it. I think the Roman Tribunal, which is rich in silver, but poor in vis would be interested. The Stonhenge Tribunal, which has pioneered efforts on regulating magically produced money, might well be the originators of this idea. The Levantine Tribunals could probably be the most effected and exposed to it, as they see how the Poor Knights of Solomon change their fortunes (assuming my timeline is right at all).

Most likely money lending happens all the time, but not in a formalized way. Covenants likely borrow and lend money plenty of times during their existance. But I doubt they write letters of credit, and if they did, it probably would only be to members of the Order. The Order though could be an ideal bank. The Covenants are secure and well protected, the Order polices itself, and guards against corruption. They already have a means and system of sending communiques great distances with accuracy, as well as the ability to instantly travle from place to place (via magic, and at the high end, the Hermes Portals). With their great education, intellect, and magical skill, they could produce a banking code that was virtually unbreakable to prevent fraud. And finally, they could probably charge interest with little worry of angering the church (more). The Order and individual Covenants are likely wealthy to a certain degree, and the protection I mentioned might make them ideal as banks. All good reasons to investigate the possibility of banking I think. Does it out weigh the negatives and dangers though?

What do you think?

Quick answer that within a midevil mindset, this just would not be seriously considered on the larges scale.

First, purely looking at money lending for interest. This holds the same problem as using magic to help mundanes- you lend money to one person or group and you draw the ire of those you don't lend money too. Even if the basis is codified and just. That's the problem with these mundanes and their attitudes. And more likely there will be forgiveness of late payments for some, but not others, and more ire is drawn. And it need not even be the applicants who's ire is drawn to the Order. If a noble borrows money from a merchant who borrows money from the Order, the noble's ire could be drawn upon the Order when the merchant starts listing off his own debts when calling in his loan to the noble. Also, what if the borrower just goes bust and the magi try to take possession of his property, even lawfully (mundane law)? In sum, interference that CLEARLY brings ruin upon one's sodalis.

Similar problems occur if the Order just provides letter of credit for a fee. Even if paperwork is lost by the principal, the Order can still be blamed. But then consider what happens if the covenant that is supposed to make good on the letter doesn't do so because it didn't have the funds.

These are all the practical consequences that can be foreseen both in back then and in the modern RL setting, if one is considered with becoming entangled in "mortal" affairs. Now, stop and really consider the stigma to money lending at the time. Not so much letters of credit, which simply helped trade and did not have to involve interest charging, but money lending. Christendom is essentially the religion of the time. Not a sect of Christianity, Christendom. Sure exceptions are made left and right, but the stigma is clear. Even the non-Christian magi will be well aware that it just DRAWS ATTENTION. Which, of course, is bad.

As to some of the points of view you give to each house, let me give some alternates that would probably be more in line. I only skimmed so I'm picking and choosing here, but Jeribiton most likely would be against it. They don't like negative press, and even the more mercantile of them lend themselves more towards scholarship, else they wouldn't be magi in the first place. The mundane lovers, essentially, would likely go along with the mundane and church attitude toward the filthy lucre business. I doubt even the most liberal of House Guernicus would even bother to weigh possible benefits, the violation of the code is clear even to the most concilatory of transitionalists, for the reasons stated above. Tytalus I would actually expect to harbor at least some in favor the idea- a new challenge to engage. The thought of THAT would make the others even more against it. :) Ultimately, even the political Bonisagus probably wouldn't like it. I share a picture of them not being in favor of a suffocating interpretation of the code, but making an Order wide money lending business goes against the very spirit that they wish to uphold, not just the letter.

Note, that all of this would most certainly prevent an Order wide movement for this. The analysis you give under the Tremare thoughtling could be adopted by individual covenants. And not just Tremare either.

My two cents worth anyway.

Two other things to consider:
1. The Jews have been doing this for many years already, on both local and global (well Europe and near East, but that is global for the time).
2. If you don't have access to the Jews, the Knights Tempar are the largest financial institution of the time, and are more than happy to lend out money to people. They accept the Jews as minor competition, but what would they do to the order... (Major competition, eliminate it) Can you say Crusade... I can.

Ed

Thanks for the input. I agree, that by and large the Order would go against it. If it somehow even gained enough momentum to be voted on it would probably be voted down by a huge majority. However it would certainly tantalize some wizards. I kind of picture a situation like in the Godfather, when drugs start getting pushed as the Mafias' new line of business. No one (in charge) likes the idea of it, yet none can deny the money and power it would bring, and if they wait too long, not only will the oppurtunity pass them by, but they will be overthrown by others not so timid.

What I see as a possibility in the Saga is a major change in the way the Order operates (as is always hinted in each edition), and the prohibition against interacting with Mundanes is a natural debating point. This isn't going to be done on a whim of course. It would take a major change over years and years of game play. From one Grand Tribunal (where it's laughed out of the place) to the next, where hard decisions must be made, against strong and younger Magi, eager to take the place of their elders who they feel are holding them back. All the points everyone made for NOT doing it, would certainly be made. But would that be enough? That's basically what I'm talking about. A saga where the young Magi struggle against the old guard as a sea of Mundanes rises around them.

> Thanks for the input. I agree, that by and large the Order would go against it.
> If it somehow even gained enough momentum to be voted on it would probably be voted down
> by a huge majority.

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think it would ever gain sufficient momentum, as you put it, to be raised in tribunal.

> However it would certainly tantalize some wizards. I kind of picture a
> situation like in the Godfather, when drugs start getting pushed as the Mafias'
> new line of business. No one (in charge) likes the idea of it, yet none can deny
> the money and power it would bring, and if they wait too long, not only will the
> oppurtunity pass them by, but they will be overthrown by others not so timid.

This analogy helps in understanding our difference in viewpoint to some degree. Focusing on the mafia analogy, the reason why the Order's young memeber would not get involved is because the Order is very different from Mafia situations. At best, the closest is similarity is that, in the romanticized version of mafias in America, they arose to protect a certain group of people that were not protected by the law, generally recent ethnic groups that came to the US in huge droves and were marginalized and looked upon as a group. Now the Order of course exists, at least according to some, to protect those with the Gift. Even in this they are not very close.

But the Order and mafias are different in fundamental ways that underline why the Order, or even young up and comers as such, would take up the money lending thing. The clearest of these differences, and the most fundamental, is that a mafia is largely about interacting with the "mundane" (for lack of better word) community, both as people and as members of a mafia, while the Order is largely about NOT interacting with mundanes. The difference between old time mafia and younger groups was a specific activity, drug use, as opposed to other activities that already had them 1) involved with members of the community, and 2) in a criminal (read bad) manner. The banking idea in the Order goes against one of the very tenants of the Oath, and then has a bunch of negatives to the specific activity.

> What I see as a possibility in the Saga is a major change in the way the Order
> operates (as is always hinted in each edition), and the prohibition against interacting
> with Mundanes is a natural debating point. This isn't going to be done on a
> whim of course. It would take a major change over years and years of game play. From
> one Grand Tribunal (where it's laughed out of the place) to the next, where hard
> decisions must be made, against strong and younger Magi, eager to take the place
> of their elders who they feel are holding them back.

I really think it wouldn't be brought up in a Grand Tribunal at all, at least until a softening of the prohibition against interfering with mundanes was made in other areas first.

Another problem with the mafia comparison is the whole younger versus older situation. While truly old magi either don't maintain the interest in politics or become completely focussed on obscure points, they have one advantage mortal dons don't, except for especially bad twilights, their personal power keeps growing. If they lose touch with the political pulse that can effect them, but an older magus is always harder to take down than an older mundane even without bodyguards or third parties getting involved.

> All the points everyone made for NOT doing it, would certainly be made. But would
> that be enough? That's basically what I'm talking about. A saga where the young
> Magi struggle against the old guard as a sea of Mundanes rises around them.

Again I can't speak for the others, though I think one other poster might have been making this point, my take is that this isn't an age gap issue. Usury is REALLY BAD. It is socially unacceptable. Moreover, magi as whole are not necessarily keen on mundane wealth. They do like to live well, that may even be why some became magi, but as an Order, and a large majority, improving the art is the goal. More wealth can help that, but socially I just don't see younger magi becoming so focussed on it. In other words, an organized mindset along these lines, particularly the way I see you putting it, seems a gross anachronism to me.

Having said that, obviously there are always alternative settings, but if you want a traditional saga that focusses on the tension of a strict non-interference interpretation of the code against a more realistic, evolve with the times approach, I just don't see this as the rally point for the evolutionists (yes, I realize evolution itself would be an anachronism, but it's the clearest label I can think of).

In parting, if you can read I copy, I would suggest reading about one of the covenants in the Rome Tribunal book. Can't remember the name, but essentially went down the road of material gain by taking over crime in Venice. Being a WW production it's heavy into the magi losing their souls, but it is more along the lines of how I envision this ever happening in the Order. On the hush, very much on the hush. In fear of being Wizard Marched on the hush. Check it out though. Though a clear violation of most ethical and moral standards for profit, it's an idea that can be worked into any campaign.

While I agree that the usury angle might risk incurring the wrath of the mundanes, if handled (as suggested by someone earlier) by charging a handling fee like the Templars then why not? Covenants have to be able to earn money somehow (to pay for food, grogs etc) and this seems like a not entirely unreasonable way of doing so. Other more regular businesses also run the risk of stirring up trouble amongst the mundanes through jealously, rivalry amongst competitors etc.

It certainly seems highly likely to me that some magi will have thought of it and IMHO this is exactly the sort of thing that House Tytalus might try. It would certainly be a challenge to be able to run such a business without bringing down the wrath of the mundanes. As such I don't think it's particularly inappropriate in a regular AM saga. As always YMMV (and I haven't finished reading AM5 properly yet either ;)