Unless I'm very much mistaken it seems magic items have to over-come magical protections. This is obvious to any of us as it come to a 'wand of fireball' but what about

1-'Ring of invizibility' with constant use?
2-'Ring of invizibility' with ,let say, 24use/day, that you use anytime?
3-'Potion of Inviz' as a charged item?

My toughts:
1-Have to lower parma when you put it on, then the effect stay on even if parma comes back.

2-Do you have to lower parma each time?If so, how much time is needed to lower parma/get it up again?If it takes to much time, might be unthinkable to do some magic items....

3-As long as POTIONS go, I'm split into 2; (first)parma protect; (second)Because the targent drank the potion it takes effect disreguarding the parma. Also, IF the parma takes effect, what happen?The potion do NOT enter the wiz'mouth and then spill everywhere or does it enter the maga system but not affect him/her?

Second thread of toughts:
I have a sword as a talisman had it since the begining of game, 2-3years ago(Rlife).Now..

1-Since its a talismen do everyone with magic protect immune to my sword?

2-Altho it seems obvious a PeCo spell in it would trigger a Parma, what about if it(the spell) NOT triggered?Will opponents receive parma test even tho the PeCo is not 'active'?

3-(continues from 2)I got 3spells in sword: PeCo(ouch!) PeIm(Inviz) ReCo(Teleport). Now Since the sword is obviously magical do I have to put penetration in ALL the spells or just the PeCo to effect others. Other way to put it: do 'sleeping' spells are taken into acount when it goes against Parma.Again, an other way to put it: if the sword have PeIm(inviz) in it does it(the sword when swung) bounce of the parma?

My toughts:
1-I think not since it would make talismen out of weapons useless.

2-I still think it doesnt, parma would not protect if it is not affected directly by a spell

3-same as 2

now.... if parma woud protect from everything the best solution now is to create a CrVi spell that gives a +0magical bonus to a group of attacking grogs and be immune to their attacks, since its now magical.

In parma fabula for the fourth ed, there was rules to enchance weapons/armor with magic without being affected by parma. From what I read it is now impossible to do so. Now, I can't MuTe my sword to give it +X of DMG or ReTe it to have +X of ATK without the sword to bounce of parma.....

Any toughts, comments, flames, critics?

PS:please excuse the english, I'm french.

If the item is magical, then it must overcome a target's parma magica before it can touch the protected individual. I think your talisman is a magical device regardless of whether the Perdo Corporem spell is "active" or not.

As for the other magic items, any spell that has a personal range can be cast without needing to overcome the caster's parma magica. If the range of the spell is touch, then the spell must overcome the target's parma, even if the target is the caster. Therefore, to cast a touch range spell on yourself, you must lower your parma or overcome your own resistance.

*nod* I knew about the 'touch' spell thing that it has to overcome Parma even for one self...

For the magic items then.... I'm going in lab doing a CrVi voice/sun/group spell that makes weapon 'magic' with no more effect and I'm then imune to all weapons....yai!
just to break it down for fun...

base(3) voice(+2)sun(+2)Ind=15... gee! lets hit the mgic item idea..
base(3) voice(+2)Conc(+1)Ind Concentration(+5) 24/D(+5)=20!
or since my weapon is magic anyway
base(3) Touch(+1)Mom Ind Unlimited(+10)=10(or 14, Im not sure) and make it an armor....

....
Then, if a talisman is always magical.... if I would have a sword talisman without any magic in it.... how do I put penetration in it so I can hack my way through a magic-protected being? OR would I have to throw away my talisman and take a regular sword to do so?

I would instill an effect into the sword. Perdo Vim - something along the lines of Wind of Mundane Silence. Or even better you could create a spell effect to destroy magical resistance, look at the examples under Perdo Vim guidelines. Perdo Vim can reduce a target's Might by the level of the spell +10, if it penetrates. It would depend on what your Perdo and Vim scores are, but you could try:

1. Base 0, +1 Touch, +2 Sun = level 3 [I don't know if you can do a base zero spell, but I think you should be able to, if not, just raise it to 1.]

2. That would reduce the target's Might by 10 if it penetrates

3. Two uses per day (+1) plus environmental effect (+3) = 4 levels

4. Seven levels so far

5. For every additional level of effect you add, you get +2 penetration

6. Sink the rest of your Perdo Vim lab points into penetration.

7. If you have a 20 Perdo and 8 Vim and no applicable lab bonuses, you could put 7 points into penetration (giving you a 14 penetration) and still instill the effect in one season.

Of course, if you've been playing for three real world years, your scores might higher. You might also want to spend two seasons instilling the effect to give you a really good Fairy Skewerer or Demon Hacker by upping the level of the spell or putting even more points into penetration.

Thx! But then again.... I must have Penetration for the sword(since talisment) PeCo(ouch) PeIm(for both affect myself AND since its a magical effect on a sword to overcome magic resist of other ONLY for being able to hack-saw them and not PeIm them) and then AGAIN TWO penetration for ReCo(same as PeIm)...

so...thats like SIX different penetration score wich must be equal otherwise as long as ONE of those penetration dont overcome parma, ALL is lost since sword wont hit target! (do you all understand?)

PeCo pen: 40

ReCo pen: 20(affect self)/30(to be able to hack someone)

PeIm pen:10(afect self)/20(to be able to hack others)

so the basic Penetration of it to hack someone is actualy 20.... I dont know if you all understand it the way I do.... Im basing my logic on the sentence that states that every effect should be given different(each their own, altho can be same lvl) penetrations....

altho might not HAVE to do 2different kind of penetration between effect self/others.... might not after some toughts, it might be the same.... OR ... All have their penetration for afecting me (ecept PeCo) and then do a penetration to ba able to hack others throught their magic resist....

You are asking some very good questions here, Tarko, as I think those issues should have been dealt with in the ArsMag5.

With the item/potion of invisibility:

The problem (to see if I understood well):
What happen if a mage wants to use a magic item that works on him ?
In fourth edition, it was possible to do a magic ring that turns you invisible 6 times/day, for 2 minutes.

If we follow rules, that item would have to penetrate the parma of the mage at each usage. Very hard to do, and not logical.
That is the problem: those item (especialy combat items) would have much less worth. Who wants to lower his parma in cambat ?
It is a problem for ongoing campaigns with such items in it.

My solution:
I would say that such an effect can be put in an item:
An effect (in an item),when worn and knowingly used by the mage on himself, count as "personnal" effect. The item was conceived for that sort of usage, so that the parma doesn't have to be lowered.

Note that items with effect of "personnal" range can only affect the item itself.
Note also that a potion unknowingly drinked by a mage would be resisted...;)

About the 2nd thread of thoughts:

The problem is :
"if the sword have PeIm(inviz) in it does it(the sword when swung) bounce of the parma?"

The rules would answer "Yes". If they could talk. But they don't. So as interacting beings, we can achieve much more perfection in regard of those rules...and...
ok.

Things that I think:
#1- A magician throwing a boulder reduced by MuTe at another mage should intuitively BE resisted.
#2- Someone swinging a magic sword, that makes flowers in winter (only in winter), at a mage should intuitively NOT BE resisted. Even in Winter.

My solution would be:
To have the sword do it's normal dommages, without any magic effects.
Each effects must penetrate the parma to affect the mage. A Sword with a MuTe5 to sharpen a sword ( +2dommage) would hit the mage, and do it's normal dommage (without the +2)

But that solution seem to permit #1(boulder reduced), which I don't like.

Then we could see it that way: it is as my previous solution, BUT, but my solution doesn't apply to magic that affect the very thing that do dommage.
In other words: A swords that makes flowers in winter doesn't have any magic affecting it, itself, (the sword), so it would never be resisted. (That is if you don't try to make flower on some angry mage)The above exemple of a sword with a MuTe5 spell (+2dom) would BE resisted, as the magic affect the thing that does dammage.

Final solution:
We only have to make that change to the rule for parma:
The parma doesn't resist any things magical, but only things that have *ongoing magical effects" on them.
In fact, the rules can easily be interpreted that way, as it is not clear if a magic sword is a magic thing. It is a very mundane creation, with magic in it. As you said for a talisman without magic effect in it.

It is a bit of twisting, but I really think that it is for the greater good !

That would mean:
You can't make a sword more powerful by magic without having it penetrate the parma/magic resistance.
Swords with MuTe +X dom and no penetration are for use against non-magical beings.

What do you think of it ? Does it make sense for you ? Anyone with a better solution ?

From your good neighbourhood Iudicium ;)

Bearing in mind that I'm still slogging through ArM5, and so taking my opinion with a grain of salt: I'm leaning in that direction.

I like the idea of keeping things more mundane, so that magi have a reason for being secretive outside of the Code; keeping it so that they have to deal with nobles and other mundane elements, not as an inconvenience, but as (rival) powers that need to be respected.

So I'm very much leaning toward a preference for allowing weapons to do their standard, mundane effect, even if the enchantments are resisted by Parma. (And -- if I've read correctly -- with scores in the Forms adding to Soak, even against mundane attacks Magi have a decent advantage) To that end, I'm even considering that magic may shape an object, but once altered the magic is no longer a part of the object -- having done its job and dissapated.

So a sword sharpened magically is merely a sharp sword, and may grow dull again. However, if the sharpness is made permanent (an edge perpetually maintained by magic)then the magus may resist the edge -- but they're still being hit by a 3' long piece of steel, and it's probably going to hurt.

A wooden staff with one end tied in a knot by magic is still going to hit for blunt damage if a magus is beaten with it. Regardless of what's been done to it, it's Essential Nature is still that of wood... and being clubbed by a heavy wooden object naturally hurts. :)

A feral cat made the size of a horse is a serious threat if it decides that the Magus looks like a robed mouse -- rather than its overlarge claws bouncing off of Parma (Though Form: Animal will help with the soak).

I'd prefer to use Parma to resist the direct effects of magic: the blast of fire may not touch the magus, but he'd best vacate the area before he's overcome by smoke. The fire is magical in origin, but smoke is a natural consequence of objects burning... regardless of the cause of the fire.

This all seems to me to be a natural extension of the idea that a boulder hurled at a magus by magic will bounce off his Parma; magic being the propelling force, it is thus resisted by Parma. But a boulder lifted above a magus and then released to the pull of gravity will crush the target regardless of Parma.