Whith an help in laboratory you add his MT to your to calculate the seasonal vis limit (MT x 2 )?
If no, there is no advantage to have an helper when a mage, for example, prepar fon enchantment an invested devices.
mmmm.....

may the vis be with you.

You get their Magic Theory and Int. However you don't improve the vis amount usable. You can also have multiple assistants if you have Leadership, and each one adds MT and Int. So it can be a considerable benefit.

The main thing is that vis will always be an issue, in this sense a Verditius is best because they can reduce the amount of vis needed by a considerable amount if they have a high Craft. They not only receive their Craft score as a Lab bonus, but they use their Craft score to reduce the Vis cost.

"You get their Magic Theory and Int. However you don't improve the vis amount usable."

Someone on the Berkley list pointed out that the text under help in the laboratory says something akin to "helpers add their magic theory and intelligence scores to your own ..."

I believe that the main benefit of help in the lab is a higher lab total. If the helper also is able to increase your vis capacity is (I think, I haven't looked at it carefully yet) somewhat ambiguous.

gcifer wrote:
"You get their Magic Theory and Int. However you don't improve the vis amount usable."

Then erik_tyrrell wrote:
>Someone on the Berkley list pointed out that the text under help in
>the laboratory says something akin to "helpers add their magic
>theory and intelligence scores to your own ..."

>I believe that the main benefit of help in the lab is a higher lab
>total. If the helper also is able to increase your vis capacity is
>(I think, I haven't looked at it carefully yet) somewhat ambiguous.

What the book says is two things:
First, it specifies that the primary magus (Project leader, if you wish) gets bonus to Lab Total equal to Int+MT+Applicable virtues.

In a later paragraph, it specifies this to be a bonus to MT and Intelligence equal to helpers MT and Intelligence.

To me, it seems pretty clear that this brings all consequences of having higher MT (vis use, shape & material bonuses, etc.).

Nowhere does it say that maximum vis amount remains unchanged.

Hope this helps,

Jurica
(who has read that passage several times because he couldn't believe his eyes, as his Verditius will soon embark on a project with two helpers and effective MT of 23)

Well, we have to be very precise here, or we inadvertently define house rules.

ArM5 p.103 first says "add the helper's Intelligence + Magic Theory to *your Lab Total* for the season", then goes on to to handle several helpers with "each helper adding his Magic Theory and Intelligence scores to the primary researcher's scores" for computing the Lab Total, for nothing else - as apparent from the context of the second statement, set by the first one: the magus receiving the help clearly does not get a higher Intelligence (so cannot better solve riddles), nor does his knowledge of technical details of Hermetic magic, represented by his Magic Theory score, actually increase.
According to ArM5 p.94 the limit for Vis a magus can use in a single season of labwork is limited to twice his Magic Theory score. His Lab Total does not enter into that computation, hence neither does the Magic Theory of eventual helpers. Sorry.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Berengar wrote:
>Well, we have to be very precise here, or we inadvertently define
>house rules.

Sorry it took me so long to respond, RL had me preoccupied.

Let's see what 4th edition had to say about this:
>>If you are being
>>helped to perform some activity that uses your Magic
>>Theory, you add the helper’s Magic Theory + Intelligence to
>>your Lab Total for the season.
(snip studying from vis)
>>If the assistant
>>has some appropriate Virtue, like Inventive Genius,
>>that Virtue affects the primary researcher’s efforts, adding to
>>HIS SCORES AND ROLLS in the lab. (capitals are mine)
(snip social implications)
>>However, if people are exceptionally
>>well-organized and cooperative, more can work together,
>>each helper adding his Magic Theory and Intelligence scores
>>to the primary researcher’s SCORES. (again, capitals are mine)

As you can see. the text is pretty much the sam in 4th as in the 5th edition. The only thing that changed is limits to S&M bonuses and to vis, as they are now based on MT. This significantly changes the meaning of the text, in my opinion.

>ArM5 p.103 first says "add the helper's Intelligence + Magic Theory
>to *your Lab Total* for the season", then goes on to to handle
>several helpers with "each helper adding his Magic Theory and
>Intelligence scores to the primary researcher's scores"

>for computing the Lab Total, for nothing else -
This last part is not mentioned anywhere in the text.

After rereading the chapter in question, I'm still inclined to read it as I originally did. The 5th ed. is generally very specific as to what is added to score and what is added to total.
Therefore, I find that this part may be either an error (and it didn't appear as such in 1st release of errata), or exactly as it appears:
Primary researcher gets bonuses to his MT and Int for the purpose of Lab work.
This may have been inadvertantly left in, but it clearly states so.

(snip your reading of the paragraph in question)

>According to ArM5 p.94 the limit for Vis a magus can use in a single
>season of labwork is limited to twice his Magic Theory score. His
>Lab Total does not enter into that computation, hence neither does
>the Magic Theory of eventual helpers. Sorry.

What I understand is that you are ignoring the part about adding MT and Int to primary researchers scores, and focusing only on Lab Total. I have no insight into minds of editor/playtesters on this one, and cannot say what they meant. I can only read what is written. Once again, the text may be wrong, and may be corrected in future releases of errata.
Until this happens, I believe my reading stands correct.

Sincerely,

Jurica

Jurica,

you catch me without an answer here.

I never figured that a given version of a book of game rules, to be properly understood, would need reference to the previous version.
Yet I must own that law commentaries occasionally need to do just that.
Perhaps I find here the reason why medieval imperial privileges were phrased each as a single long sentence, making the context of every part of it painfully obvious.

Skipping that fourth edition part: do you really believe, that a magus becomes more intelligent or knowledgeable while somebody helps him in the lab?

Kind regards,

Berengar

//you catch me without an answer here. //

Oddly enough, that didn’t stop you from answering.

//I never figured that a given version of a book of game rules, to be properly understood, would need reference to the previous version.//

No, but they need to be clear. Jurica compared the two rules to see if there was a substantial difference in wording. If there had been, then it would have been an obvious change. And as Jurica states, 5th ed seems to make clear lines between when they use the world “total” and the word “score.” Jurica’s reading makes just as much sense as your interpretation. However, unlike you Jurica seems willing to believe that his/her interpretation may be wrong.

We won’t know, until the actual Game Designers put in their two cents.

Anything else, your comments included, is merely “defining house rules.” However, I prefer to see it as offering advice and opinions on how a given situation has been handled in different campaigns.

//Skipping that fourth edition part: do you really believe, that a magus becomes more intelligent or knowledgeable while somebody helps him in the lab?//

Following your line of reasoning, why does the addition of a helper give any bonus to Lab Total at all? If a +3 Intelligence knows only so much, why bother combining another +3 Intelligence? If every Magus with a 5 in Magic Theory knows exactly the same thing, then why bother adding any lesser or equal score?

If the point of having a helper in the lab is so that they can add insight (INT) and additional knowledge (MT), then why could not that helper add the capacity to include more magic in an enchantment?

The reasoning for adding insight and additional knowledge makes sense. If the definitive rule is that such does not increase the amount of Vis that can be utilized, then it is a purely a limitation on the Game Mechanics.

Going quickly through this issue once again, in easy to follow short steps.

Definition lookup:
Score is defined for Characteristics like Intelligence on ArM5 p.18, and for Abilities like Magic Theory on p.31. In both cases it is just the numerical value of the Characteristic or Ability.

First question:
Is ArM5 p.103 "each helper adding his Magic Theory and Intelligence scores to the primary researcher's scores" to be taken literally, absolutely and out of context?
First answer:
No. It just does not make sense that somebody becomes more intelligent or knowledgeable by being helped in the Lab.

Second question:
In which context does this statement apply then?
Second answer:
It applies in the context set up by the ArM5 chapter 'Help in the Lab', of course. And there it is clearly spelled out when you add your helpers' Magic Theory and Intelligence scores to your own: "you add the helper's Intelligence + Magic Theory to your Lab Total for the season". The chapter provides or implies nothing else.

Kind regards,

Berengar

//Going quickly through this issue once again, in easy to follow short steps.//

Glad you found a style that suits you.

//First question:
Is ArM5 p.103 "each helper adding his Magic Theory and Intelligence scores to the primary researcher's scores" to be taken literally, absolutely and out of context?
First answer:
No. It just does not make sense that somebody becomes more intelligent or knowledgeable by being helped in the Lab.//

Alternate Answer:
However, it is an age old truism that "two heads are better than one," and that two people working on the same problem will usually come up with a better solution than a single individual. This is the justification for help in the lab in the first place.

//Second question:
In which context does this statement apply then?
Second answer:
It applies in the context set up by the ArM5 chapter 'Help in the Lab', of course. And there it is clearly spelled out when you add your helpers' Magic Theory and Intelligence scores to your own: "you add the helper's Intelligence + Magic Theory to your Lab Total for the season". The chapter provides or implies nothing else.//

Alternate Answer:
The limit on Vis use is based on the theory that a Magus can only run a set-limit of Vis/Magic through their body/mind/spirit/ureter in a given season, effectively. Therefore, having two bodies/minds/spirits/ureters should allow for additional Vis/Magic.

That is the Theory. If the Game Mechanics say otherwise, then that is the Game Mechanic.

I actually agree with you, and think the limit is definitive. However, I am absolutely happy to argue with anyone who puts forth their opinions as "Answers" instead of opinions. Call it a hobby.

Little Regard
Scotsman185

//I actually agree with you, and think the limit is definitive. However, I am absolutely happy to argue with anyone who puts forth their opinions as "Answers" instead of opinions. Call it a hobby.//

Hahahaha.. I love that one! Can I use it?
Respecting others opinions, and not taking yourself too seriously, all rolled up in one sarcastic little sentence... Oohh, priceless!

Just my 2 pawns worth:

In our saga, we agreed that primary researchers MT is absolute limit on vis spent/S&M bonuses. This was our joint decision as a troupe, and we set it up as house rule, as there was no official response/clarification.

That is all we agreed upon-it was clear to everybody that this particular part is (in context of 5th edition) badly written and ambiguous, with lot of room for different interpretations.

All in all, I'm not very happy with "official" responses to clarification/ruling requests on any of the lists/forums. They are few and far between, and official errata is very ...how shall I put it...useless?

I'm a programmer in RL, and I'm used to destruct-testing of the rules, which is the only thing that brings out the weakneses of a system (whether a program or a RPG game). ArM is anything but rules-light system, and I expect internal consistency in ArM, especially with the amount of testing that went into it. Things like this issue just annoy me.

Sincerely,

Jurica

//Hahahaha.. I love that one! Can I use it? //

Soitenly!

//Hahahaha.. I love that one! Can I use it? //

((Actually, that was supposed to have been: ))

Soitenly! Just send me a nickle every time you use it. :-)

...but my rebellious fingers decided to hit some Alt or Ctrl Keys when I wasn't looking.

Damned communist fingers.
J.