A few enchanted items that my Verditius is planning on inventing at some point. His particular Crafts are Carpentry and Stone Masonry, as well as having a Major Magical Focus for magic that involves Rooms, Structures and Boundaries.

1. The Merciful Door. The Door is enchanted to effect
the chamber behind it providing a +18 recovery bonus
to those within. It is not always on, it must be
activated at Sunrise and Sunset (3 gentle raps on the
door from either side) in order to avoid a constant
magical effect on the inhabitants of the room.

CrCo Base 15, Range: +1 Touch Duration: +2 Sun Target:
+2Room
Total 40

Effect Frequency: 2 per day +1
Total level: 41
Vis Required (for a Wooden door): 8 Vim (Material: Wood,
Size: Large) to open the enchantment 5 Creo or Corpus for
the effect. Or just 5 Creo or Corpus for a lesser
Instilled device. For only 5 levels higher (and no extra
Vis) the effect can be instilled into an entire Structure
rather than a room.

2. The Wandering Fortress. A stone figurine of a
tower is enchanted so that when given the command it
will grow into a guard tower, with stone walls and
battlements, and a grated chimney, and stout wooden
doors. The final size is 40 feet tall and a 10 foot
foundation, and typically 2 (wooden) floors plus
stairs to connect them and access to the bare roof
top.

Base 3, Range: +1 Touch, Duration: +2 Sun, Target:
Individual +2 Size, +1 Elaborate design. Herbam
Requisite. Total 35

2 Uses per day +1
Continued Effect +1 (allows the tower to be maintained
by a second activation rather than returned to normal
and then grown again)

Total Effect: 37
Vis Used: 4 Vim (Material: Stone, Size: Tiny) to open
the enchantment. 4 Pawns Creo or Terram (and Herbam
as well if no Creo is used) to instill the effect, or
just 5 pawns to make lesser enchanted device.

3. Walls of Healing Stone. A stone decoration is
enchanted to heal and mend broken walls and fissures
of the structure it is implanted in. It only effects
one structure. It will effect the fortress for
example, but not a set of walls around it that are not
attached and vice versa. It can heal completely over
the course of a day a hole of up to Size +3 per day,
or a number of smaller holes adding up to size +3.

Base 3, Range:+1 Touch, Duration:+2 Sun, Target: +3
Structure Total: 25

Effects Per day: 2 +1
Environmental Trigger (Sun): +3

Total effect: 29

Vis Required: 4 to open (Form: Stone, Size: Tiny), 3
Creo or Terram Vis for the effect, or 3 Creo or Terram
alone for a lesser enchanted device.

The first one is likely the most useful, if it could be dropped just one point for the effect you could save a pawn of vis. The main reason that it has two uses per day, but not constant use, is so that those living within aren't warped year round. The second one needs the most finagling I think. It's based off Conjuring the Wizard's Tower, but is smaller and less intricately designed, plus it's not a permanent fixture (it can be, if reapplied every day). The main question is if the +1 Magnitude for Elaborate design is enough for the effect, of a guard tower with 2 floors and battlements. It's important to try and keep the effect at a base 35, so as to save a pawn of Vis as well as keep the enchanted item small, stone, and portable. The final one is based off the enchanted devices from The Broken Covenant of Calebais, that could heal themselves perpetually. the main problem is, I'm not sure how much it should be able to heal in a day, perhaps it should be much less (like Size 0 holes), to provide a structure that will eventually heal itself completely, and thus save a lot in stone and mason workers, but unable to heal itself of major damage over night.

Let me know what you think, does the math add up?

"Major Magical Focus for magic that involves Rooms, Structures and Boundaries"

I'd see it more as a focus that applies for any man made structure & it's subdivisions Or applies when affecting something inside something man created Or applied when affecting inside something natural. I just find that Rooms & Boundaries don't have much in common.

"1. The Merciful Door. The Door is enchanted to effect
the chamber behind it providing a +18 recovery bonus
to those within."

A door is not well known for healing people. As a Versitius I'm sure you can find better... Meaby the whole room could be of a particular design specific for healing.

"It is not always on, it must be
activated at Sunrise and Sunset (3 gentle raps on the
door from either side) in order to avoid a constant
magical effect on the inhabitants of the room."

Even if not contant in effect, if people spend more than half of a year under the effect, they will be warped.

"2. The Wandering Fortress. A stone figurine of a
tower is enchanted so that when given the command it
will grow into a guard tower, with stone walls and
battlements, and a grated chimney, and stout wooden
doors. The final size is 40 feet tall and a 10 foot
foundation, and typically 2 (wooden) floors plus
stairs to connect them and access to the bare roof
top."

Since it is not a ritual, you will have ha hard time establishing this as a permanent installation... unless you have the skill to prepare the land for the fortification...

as for the other things .. looks good to me.

First of all thanks for the input.

"I'd see it more as a focus that applies for any man made structure & it's subdivisions Or applies when affecting something inside something man created Or applied when affecting inside something natural. I just find that Rooms & Boundaries don't have much in common."

The main similarity in Boundary and Room is that they are still both man made. Even a natural boundary must be recognized as a Boundary (by people), and then it will apply IMO. His focus is really (pre-Mysteries regulations) on such concepts as Sacred Geometry. His focus is thus more on Auras/Regios and Covenants and the buildings and rooms within, however the Virtue requires specificity, so I limited it to Targets/Ranges of Boundary, Room, and Structure. Boundary can only come up in Rituals anyway, so he can't make an item that uses it, unless Verditian Magic Inner Mysteries allows him to. His focuses whenever he casts a Boundary spell (he knows Aegis of the Hearth for example) requires detailed maps and cartographical notes, which are very man made, and also incorperates Hermetic concepts, so I'd say it still applies.

"A door is not well known for healing people. As a Versitius I'm sure you can find better... Meaby the whole room could be of a particular design specific for healing."

Enchanting the whole room would be far too expensive Vis wise. A door is not appropriate for healing true, but the Craft Carpentry used to make it his skill. Plus a door can still be moved to other rooms. There would certainly be other applicable things he could enchant though. The Door however has a shorter Range requirement. If you enchant the door it effects everything it Touches (ie the Room), giving it the Touch range. An item within the room might require a different Range, such as Voice or Ring, to effect everything in the room. Enchanting one of the stones on the floor would work as well as the door I'd say. And enchanting the door a little stronger could make the Recovery bonus apply to an entire Structure (raise the Target by 1). Basically by enchanting the door, you can make any room or even Structure into a hospital without doctors or nurses. In future supplements I hope they'll incorporate what was in 4th edition Mysteries for Sacred Geometry, where you temper the Aura for specific magic, in this case, healing magic.

"Even if not contant in effect, if people spend more than half of a year under the effect, they will be warped."

Yes, but this was added for considerations of space. I could have simply made it a constant effect by adding an environmental trigger (Sun), but that would mean the room is going to Warp constantly. The Covenant might not have enough space to devote an entire room to this Warping (but also beneficial) effect. By giving it a switch, the room could be used by others without Warping danger when no one needs to heal or recover. Most people will not be so gravely wounded that they require more than half a year's exposure to the room anyway. And the room could have attendants as well, servants to bring food, and clean, and in all likelihood their brief exposure (even if it's every day all year) wouldn't warp them.

"Since it is not a ritual, you will have ha hard time establishing this as a permanent installation... unless you have the skill to prepare the land for the fortification..."

Good point, sounds like Rego should be added as a Requisite or perhaps add a Magnitude again for the elaborate design.

Looking back on the self healing walls, I thought of some medieval Paradigm-like modifications. I had it originally set that it would heal a +3 size hole, or a number of holes adding up to +3 size. To me that sounds like too much. I may have thought of a way around that. Instead of just healing holes in the wall, every sunrise to sunset, as well as every sunset to sunrise, an amount of repairs is done to the walls/structure equivalent to one day's work of one skilled laborer (with the appropriate tools and supplies). Therefore, each 24 hour cycle would get 2 days worth of repair on the walls, starting with the areas that need the most help first. That I think would be a more magical/medieval application I think. Or perhaps it would be two men working, or a small team of them. Basically more appropriate setting wise than game stat wise.

// Enchanting the whole room would be far too expensive Vis wise.

Couldn't you do it as a Lesser Enchantment? Then the size of the enchanted object would not matter, only the Level of the effect. That's what we did for the "hospital room" in our covenant.

"A door is not appropriate for healing true, but the Craft Carpentry used to make it his skill. Plus a door can still be moved to other rooms. There would certainly be other applicable things he could enchant though. The Door however has a shorter Range requirement. If you enchant the door it effects everything it Touches (ie the Room), giving it the Touch range. An item within the room might require a different Range, such as Voice or Ring, to effect everything in the room. Enchanting one of the stones on the floor would work as well as the door I'd say."

I'd see a bowl of water that targets the one's that are beeing tended to. You would need a voice range but it can be carried around from one place to another & is much more linked to healing than a door or stones.

I very well see a 'nurse' applying the towell on the forehead of the wounded every day to help recovery.

The ring Idea is also nice ... I just can't find a good medieval application of the healing spell that works with a ring duration spell.

"dragon breath tankard
after you drink from this tankard you can for up to an hour breath a blast of fire and/or any other type of breath weapon you have seen a dragon breath out!"

Could you translate this one into numbers for us. It seems a bit arcane and I'm interested in how you would interpret it.

you wildly overestimate the speed of a cheetah! they've been clocked at 60mph, but nowhere near 90!

Also, open savanah is essentially non-existant in Europe. Woodland, with some meadow land, heathland, mountain, and farm-land... yes.

Note: the trick in Ars Magica is not to adopt the DND style of "an item to make X like Y", but to look at the formulae available: all magic items embody spell-like effects, so look at the spell guidelines and see what they can do.
For your boots: ask - is the wearer being altered to make them like a mythic cheetah (Muto Corpus(Animal)) which will also give them beast-like features for the spell duration; or is it moving them by magic (Rego Corpus).
Look at the existing sample spells for inspiration...

Terrifically and amazingly useful, yes - possible within Hermetic Magic - sadly no.

Beware any offers of such a device, especially those which seem to genuinely work. You can be sure that any such device is, in fact, Infernal itself, and has been constructed to deceive the gullible magus who accepts its assistance. Beware even of the device which claims to do no more than the presence of a Demon.
Even the "sure signs" of a Demon: the stench, the withering of plants, and the susceptibility to Demon's Eternal Oblivion can be unerringly faked or concealed by those damned spirits - they may make deception of an Infernal Aura where non exists, or if struck by DEO may conceal their own torment and project deception so as to make it appear that some innocent other writhes...

Hermetic Magic is sadly unable to pierce the lies and deceptions of the Infernal, who are, in their very essence: Deceivers...

That said, it is to our embarrassment in the Order, that those unGifted grogs among us who have Sense Holiness & Unholiness may indeed be able to use Divinely granted power to pierce that very veil of opacity... Huh!

Actually, light belongs to the form of Ignem. Auram spells can
cause weather phenomena, but that does not include light.

There already is a spell, Lamp Without Flame (CrIg10, ArM4 page 135)
that creates a magical light equivalent to a torch. Also, lightbulbs
were invented a bit later than 12th century, but the glowing item
might be a stone or a lantern.

In creating enchanted devices, the magus does not need to know the
spell he is instilling, and there are no prerequisites. Again, I urge
you to download the free rulebook, and learn the rules. Coming up
with ideas for spells and/or magic items might be fun, but to be
honest, people on this forum already know that kind of spells.

Some of their characters can even cast them spontaneously, when
needed. In our campaign, when a spell effect is needed, the rulebook
is opened and the player creates the spell from the guidelines
written in the book. Ars Magica has the best magic system in the
games on the market, and when the rules are free, why not just
get the book and read them?

//B

Although you may have read the book I am not sure you understand a key component of the game...hardly a surprise since you need to play the game to understand it in my opinion.

Mages do not have unlimited time, and anything that uses time has to be considered against what you could do. So inventing a spell, which is in general at least 1 season (3 months) in the lab, or creating a magical device which is likely to be at least 2 seasons and often more is a serious investment for the mage. Most mages would not consider doing so for a spell or device which was not generally useful. Also a key component of the Order of Hermes is that it is supposed to be secret, and a great many of the spells you suggest are not terribly subtle or for that matter useful. A formulistic spell is used when you wish repeatedly to achieve the same goal or for reasons of power since it is hard to spont a high level effect unless you are a powerful mage. But given the time it takes to develop a spell in the lab you don't waste that time developing spells that you might use once in a hundred years. Now admittedly that is my view and others may differe on it but I suspect most players will agree with me.

Spontaneous spells cover most of the things you suggest. These are the most commonly cast spells anyway. Need to move a rock? Spont a ReTe and it is gone...need a tunnel...ReTe or PeTe or MuTe(Au or Aq)...etc. An interesting observation is that although In Character the flaw poor forumlastic casting is a terrible problem for a Hermetic mage, in game terms since most of the spells you use are sponted it is probably a "cheap" flaw to take and will have far less negative effects then it likely would have "in reality."

You are free to suggests spells and items ad infinatum but before you do I would strongly suggest you think less of the level and the effect and more on the WHY. That for a formulistic spell is the first and in my mind most important question after that is a question of following an established mechanic and discussing things with your SG to ensure it is acceptable to him or her.

You asked one time how the game would handle St. Elmo's fire. It is a low level CrAu spell as St. Elmo's fire is a weather effect. I have used CrAu(Re) spells to make glowing balls of marsh gas for light, and certainly would be interested in creating St. Elmo's fire for effect or light if the situation warented it but I seriously doubt I would bother with creating a formulistic spell to do something I can spont even without fatigue.

And the same is true of magical devices they require time in the lab, and the expenditure of vis something which does not grow on trees (though the herbam varity may). So what devices get made depends on need, skill, time and vis. Our covenent has an access to Ignem vis so making a proper bath house with hot and cold pools and so forth is easy and "cheap" compared to other things that could be made. But again most Magi will create devices which have both a utility and can not be done in some mundane way since the Vis cost is often significant. But exceptions to this exist...my Mage would invest a cloak with "Cloak of Ducks Feathers" making it water proof without thinking the time not well spent. A begining mage will probably invent a few minor spells simply because they can be done in a single season or create a minor magic item for the same reason simply because of the rewards of doing so.

This is advice to you, what you do with it is up to you. I have enjoyed playing Ars Magica for the past couple of years and I think it is a great system, I hope you enjoy your experience with it as well.

"You asked one time how the game would handle St. Elmo's fire. It is a low level CrAu spell as St. Elmo's fire is a weather effect."

Actually, I was the one who first mentioned St. Elmo's fire. I was curious as to how low an effect people thought it would be - whether the 'normal weather phenomenon' level would be appropriate, and how much of an 'unnatural phenomena' might be applicable (the +1 given as a for example seemed appropriate).

That said, I agree with your most reasoned and cogent response to Abrahamray. One thing to consider, though, for low level effects isn't necessarily the time factor. After having had a mage invent spells in the new edition, I'm fairly convinced that many level 4 (or even level 10) spells are developed because the mage was making a larger spell and was using the season anyway, and had a lab total high enough that he could invent the low level spell in addition during that season without really involving any more of his time.

Well as my mage is a weather specialist it tends to be something I think about a lot. St. Elmo's fire is a minor phenomeom...making it without a storm would be unnatural but the St. Elmo's fire is a very minor thing, compared to say a rain storm or a wind. It is really much like creating a breeze...but if there is no storm around then it would get the unnatural increase.

I would agree with you after doing the covent project that lots of low level things get tossed in "just because" but still when you look at the low level (<10) spells they always tend to be things that you repeatedly might find yourself doing. I am afraid that abrahamray's suggestions did not seem in the same catagory and having seen someone else on another list wear out his welcome I thought it worth the effort to prevent that happening for someone who seems to have a lively interest in the game.

given that Ars Magica has a system of Longevity magic already, with built in limits, why do you assume the game woul be better for breaking those limits?
Perhaps it is better if magi can manage long life, but not immortality?

(Or you could do worse than refer to the 4th Ed "The Mysteries" which had a secret means to prepare an Elixir of Life - with great difficulty...)

If you check out the section on longevity potions, it points out that you don't have to make it as a potion. It could be a treatment from soaking is special materials over time, a tattoo, an amulet that you wear, or even comfortable pair of slippers if you so desired.

The section also points out that you most likely wouldn't want it to be made into something that can easily be taken from you, as you lose the benefit when it's taken off of you. That reduces the desirability of making it as an amulet or a comfortable pair of slippers.....

As to never getting older permanently, that's beyond the province of hermetic magic. The longevity potion is the best they have. You could take the Unaging virtue (which doesn't mean you live forever, you just don't get older or suffer the debilitating effects of old age) as you get older, but still at some point you keel over and die. The combination of the Unaging virtue and the longevity potion might give the appearance of never aging (although you don't visibly age as rapidly with a longevity potion, a year here and a year there adds up over the decades).

Abraham Ray - you still have to rethink your approach for Ars magica, and drop the DND approach - consider these two examples...

Ars Magica - design the effect and the enchantment, and explain the working:
"I want to use Ignem to damage an opponent; I propose using Creo Ignem (guideline to cause +5 damage), and a range of Voice (Near in 4e) to hurl the blast. Momentary duration is enough, and the target is the Individual attacked.
I want to enchant this into a device. I want to use it repeatedly, so I increase the Effect level by +5 levels to grant 15 uses per day.
The overall Effect level is then 5 (CrIg) +2 magnitudes (10 levels) for Voice Range, and +5 levels for extra use - final level is 20.
To make the Lab work easier, I I include a Star Ruby (+5 fire) in the enchantment which will increase my CrIg Lab Total.
In overall form I choose to mount the ruby on a ring because I think rings are a good setting for rubies - though this does not affect the enchantment.
The triggering action is to point my finger at the target, rub the ruby and say 'Lumen!'"
The Ars Magica suggestion shows how the effect is built and how it works in-game -- Ars Magica provides rules with great detail on how to design spells and enchantments, so there is a reasoning and a purpose to all of it.
Anyone with the rules can look in detail and say - Neil was at work and not able the check the guideline level for CrIg +5 fire damage, and he got it wrong! (Probably). They can also argue about whether you have the right method, and whether you have accounted for all factors.

DND - an arbitrary description and unexplained result.
"I make a glove with silver rings which tingles, and when I swing it, something magical happens to make it glow and blast my opponent". Why is it a glove, why silver rings, why the light? Why or how does it work? What level is it, what damage does it do, how often can it be used - and again, why?
The huge catalogue of DND spells and enchantments is jammed full of such useless "design" with no rhyme or reason, no system, no explanation.
Why does it even tingle - there is nothing like that in ArM unless you include extra magical enchantments to *cause* a tingle - not that most magi would bother...

You keep making posts of DND style spells and magic items, which make absolutely no sense in an Ars Magica context.
You really have to look at the examples in the book, on the Atlas Games web-site, and on other web-sites, and learn to talk Ars Magica, not this endless stream of Dungeons And Drearies...

You have not still given any details whatsoever, no numbers, levels, guidelines used, ranges, damage. You need to give us *details* if you want meaningful comments, beyond us saying "that's not the design process to use".

We can't help you if you just toss in a DND item description and say "what do you think of that". (The short answer is that we think "it's a DND item", or "rubbish").

As for bonuses: Shape & Material bonuses are listed in the Laboratory section of the Ars Magica book, and extended in several supplements. You can add more to the list, but are recommended to keep "in style". Note also the subtelty that one of the benefits of Verditius Magic is a way to create devices with bonuses simialr to S&M but without the faff of constraining the shape and design to fit the rules - so don't add too many S&M factors just to make life easy for players!
Remember also the Shape & Material bonuses are merely extras that a particular magus uses to increase their Lab Total in enchanting the effect - they are not part fo the design.
[The discus thrown might be used as a "Trigger" for the effect, but specifying the trigger is just "icing on the cake" once the real design is worked out.]

You're doing it again. You're just pulling these numbers out of your sleeve, without thinking or trying to follow the rules of Ars Magica.

Try to stick to the basic Ranges in the rulebook. Excluding some special spells (like Pilum of Fire) the spells follow a set of different stages: Personal, Touch/Eye, Voice, Sight and Arcane Connection.

Ars Magica uses only d10s. Damage is given in either just 'simple die' or + and a number (+15), which means that you roll a stress die and add the number given.

The magic system in Ars Magica is quite simple, when you put your mind to it. It is logical. It's not that hard to read the book.

> range-5-10feet
> damage 1d4

Ugh!

What on earth are you on about???
No, don't answer that - you are thinking DND.

PLEASE don't do this... go back and read the Ars Magica book again, and see how things are phrased: range uses standard named categories, damage is a fixed number plus a D10.

Ars Magica uses D10 throughout, for every roll - there is no ArM roll which does not specify (or imply) a D10.
Most ArM players have a bag full of D10s (for those rattly botch tests) but no other shape of die...

>on my wishlist for these forums is a "/ignore" feature

There is one; just select options on one of the messages written by the author you wish to ignore.

You are still reading 4th Ed?
In that case spell blasts like Ignem are usually "Aimed" (see "Aimed" section).
The magus makes a Per+Finesse roll against an ease factor determined by range and dodge ability (specialization of Brawl Ability).
The spell either hits, or misses, and according to the rules as written, a spell does the listed damage (+D10 stress roll, no botch)... there are no grazing results.
(Re-read the Combat section and the Wounds section)
The victim also Soaks the damage. Armour *always* counts against blasts, including Lightning, contra to C21 physics... this is Myth, not Real Life.
(Don't forget Magical Fire etc is also subject to Magic Resistance)
(Read the Magic resistance in (I think) the Magic chapter)

A common 4e House Rule is to follow the example for missile combat and record the attack excess of the Finesse roll (roll - Ease Factor), and add that in place of rolling a new D10.
=======================================================
In 5th Ed, the situation is changed. Very few spells are Aimed, spells are nearly always Targeted directly (automatic hit, but subject to MR, and if the target resists, the spell never starts). For example, Ball Of Abysmal Flame in 4e is Aimed, but in 5e it just targets the designated person. You cast the spell (the mundane target has no MR) the fire envelopes the target and causes (Spell + D10) damage which they try to Soak.

Those that are Aimed in 5e, do so because the spell target is "the space next to the guy with the red hat", and you need to ensure that you place the spell in space where he's standing.... the advantage is that the spell starts without resistance (assuming that the area itself cannot resist!), and the hopefully envelopes everything you intended. The effect may than affect those near it - eg fire envelopes all around (but Magical Fire is resisted), while a pit is there, removing the ground, and people fall into it anyways...

"Missing" for a 5e Aimed spell means you placede the centre of the spell offset from where it's intended, and the effects are resolved from that place instead (the pit is offset, and opens under Sir Robert instead - oops!)
Of course, if you Aim a 100-pace diameter fiery blast, and you are out by 20 paces, who cares? <grin>

Abraham - READ WHAT PEOPLE ARE SAYING about your posts.

You are not going to get interest from others if you keep repeating these same style of posts when it's been explained over and over how to go about ArM design.

You simply do not start by reading the blasted DND books and suggesting rubbish from those, using the style and format of DND.

Go back and read the posts that have tried to help you; go and read the ArM book, try following the design process suggested, and stop reading DND!

New item- Silence the Word of Babble- Silence a person who speaks whithout motivation all the times......
I think it's a useful object....

...and for the other, PeIm base 3, +1 changing sound, +1 eye, +3 Moon, 1 use per day, Total 20

May the vis will be with you!

hardy har har,I am trying!
besides the item I put up can be made magical & non-magical as an example(the enchanted version has thiker smoke)also I don't see you puting up any better!
in any case,what does this item look like!

Edited 5/25/2005 6:03 pm ET by abrahamray

look back at post 508.1 - the start of this thread.

That is a REAL example of how to talk about ArM enchantments.

And no, you do not appear to be trying - just tossing in random ideas with no design whatsoever.

cHantalla wrote :
"New item- Silence the Word of Babble- Silence a person who speaks whithout motivation all the times......
I think it's a useful object...."

an excellent choice
PeCo perhaps , but PeIm is less permanent :-)

Does make the development of spells like 'Gift of Reason' seem more obvious now though.

Graham.

What's more important than the looks of the item or its trigger action is the magical effect the item has. You have a rego herbum(terum) effect in it. Could you possibly mean Rego Herbam with Terram requisite? If yes, where's the effect level calculation?

You cannot make a suggestion for a spell or a enchanted device without these. You're not even trying to listen to the help people here have given you or tried to use it in your posts. What would the rag wash? Food stains? Blood? Dust? Mud? How often? At what distance? Would it work by removing the dirt or moving it?

Hermetic magi do not fill items with vis, nor do they capture the magic with it. You must mean that the item is opened for enchantment first and then the effect is instilled in it. If you continue to post your ideas, use the correct wording in them.

Then perhaps to the most important question. Why would a magus spend a season and precious vis making this item? There are dozens of other, more important or better suited projects for the magi. Most of them do not clean anything, at least by hand. Why would they care if a maid needs to use two hours rubbing the dinner table? It's not their time.

There are a number of magical items in ArM books, made by benevolent magi for their servants (a butterchurn or a belt of strength pop into my mind), but I would think that those magi would be rare.

Again, like many have said before me, you should forget the D&Dism and start to think in ArM terms. There are many good magical items for Ars Magica on the net, as well as some in the rule or source books. Try to get a hold of the Parma Fabula for 4th edition, it has many pages of magic items.

Finally, for a non-native english speaker, your posts are quite difficult to read and to understand. If you could take a bit more time to concentrate on what you want to say, use commas and full stops as well as capital letters and paragraphs, they'd be much more easier to understand.

If this is too complicated for you, it might be time to go back to D&D.

<<how about this then-rag of washing>>
A magical rag will be no more durable than a normal rag unless it is somehow enchanted to be tougher. Therefore your rag will be worn away, rot, get eaten by moths, decay in a year or 2, 10 years at most.

<<to activate it you must make a HARD rubbing motion on the surface to be washed>>
None of us cares about how the item is activated. The activation trigger is usually trivial to the actual creation process. The important steps are determining what level of effect is generated by the item. Take the base level of the effect, modify it fior range, duration, and target. Then apply modifiers for enchanted items like number of uses per day and such.

<<2-pawns of vis to fill>>
What do you mean? Nowhere in the rules is this terminology used. Read the rules again and try to use the same terms that the rules use so readers know what you mean.

<<& 1 capture the magic>>
Again we have no idea what you are trying to communicate here. How did you come up with 1 pawn? What is your reasoning.

<<(I think)the effect is a rego herbum(terum)(again I think)>>
As long as you want the rag to move dirt and plant matter this is fine, it won't move animal droppings or stuff like human vomit though

<<tell me if you think this is a better item description!>>
Nope, you are missing the point completely. It seems to me that you are deliberately trolling, it is possible that you are not.

Btw I am curious, what is your native language? You seem to have the grasp of some idioms in English that a fluent speaker would have, yet your posts tend to have the type of spelling errors and word substitutions that a non-native speaker would have. Anyhow, I was just curious.

I'm AbrahamAss. Look at me hee hee hee!

how about this - magical shoes(they can be blue or red if you like). You put them on your feet and say "poopeydoopey" and they keep your feet from getting durty. What do you think pretty clever huh? Maybe regoturrum?

Hee hee hee i can't spell even though I have the book right in front of me! hee hee hee

Here a good one-a device that when it hits a person it cuts them and makes them bleed(item must be made of metal). to activate it you have to run a sharping stone along its edges. I am thinking about calling it a sword what do you think?

I'm AbrahamAss hee hee hee!

this is an original one- a magical bag that is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside so you can carry lots of stuff. how would you make it? any suggestions? what spheres would you use?

Hee hee hee You can't stop me! I'm AbrahamAss!

How is it made tougher?

What is the level of effect of the magical effect to make it tougher?

What is the level of the effects you are putting into the item? You CANNOT figure out how many pawns of vis to use without knowing the level of effect.

I can't help myself!

I keep coming back in the vain hope that maybe he just speaks English as like his 7th language or something and is having trouble understanding what we are writing. As opposed to him simply being a Du'mass. Actually thinking about how to explain some of this stuff makes me look more in depth into the rules. Posting here to help this guy is a bonus (from the root latin "to bone us")

Sounds like something to address for Study XP in ArM 5.

Instead of reducing XP from a Gifted Teacher for the number of students , you increase the XP back to that for Individual Tuition if you include a truly abysmal and otherwise hopeless incompetent in the class.

And yes answering (Abraham)-Assinine questions has certainly forced me to look at the rules more closely.

Doesnt mean i will continue to do so however.

How is it tougher?
Do you change it to iron? That would make it kinda useless as a rag.

You seem to missing the point on how magic works in this system. To make a item tougher, you need to do something specific to it. That specific change you make is what is important, it defines how powerful the spell/item effect must be. There is no "magic just makes it tougher" in this game.

If you want to help a person resist damage you can change the person. Gift of the Bear's Fortitude actually thickens their skin to provide that toughness. You can give a person dragon-scales to give them a bonus to soak, Muto Corpus with an Animal requisite. You seem to be missing the fact that the game doesn't really center around giving someone a +X to their soak as far as the mechanics are concerned. What is more important is how much you have to change a person to get that +X.

For your dishrag of cleaning, you need to think of what specific change you will make in the rag to cause it to be more durable.

Also look on the Material and Sizes table for the maximum ammount of vis that will fit in an item like a dishrag. You probably can only get 5-10 levels of spells to fit in there total.

After going through Cabelis, it seems like many items/effects in there are outside the bounds of Hermetic Magic.....

Using the rules from 5e how would you make an item that is self- repairing? Would you do a Creo-whatever form effect with Sun duration and 2 effect triggers (one for sunup/sundown, and one for when the item is damaged)? Thats a lot of levels of effect (+10 for unlimited charges and +6 for the triggers) but I guess you could.

BTW it is a dishrag, so keep in mind the limits of how much vis you can spend. I don't have my book with me (at work) but I would think at most you could get 2 pawns in there.

<<o.k. then other than the self-repair what do you think so far?>>

Other than it not being able to hold enough vis to enchant the item, I think it is a waste of a season and vis for a magus to create.

> o.k. then other than the self-repair what do you think so far

> how about this then-rag of washing
> to activate it you must make a HARD rubbing motion on the surface to
> be washed
> 2-pawns of vis to fill & 1 capture the magic(I think)the effect is a
> rego herbum(terum)(again I think)
> tell me if you think this is a better item description!

you are still obsessed with starting at the form and the trigger, which is the wrong end of the design process.
You end up by over-specifying the actions, and ending up adding corrections to fix the trigger (ie you insist on scrubbing hard, so you have to then protect the device from the effects of scrubbing - this is pointless...)
You really, really, really need to learn to stop doing that and go back into the Lab Chapter, the Magic Chapter and the Spells Chapter, and look at the way that ArM build spells and device effects.
It REALLY does NOT matter what shape the device is, other than to give the enchanter a minor boost in the lab; nor what the triggering effect is - they are just a sprinkling of sugar on the final confection.

If you want a device to clean a surface, as a general scrubbing type result, then it's Rego Terram (certainly in 5e - a bit uncertain about 4e which was vaguer).
In 5e, Rego Terram alone is enough to scrub a surface - "an effect which a craftsman could achieve with the proper tools - ie a scrubber + scrubbing brush".

Touch range is enough, and Mom duration - it won't stay clean any longer than any other scrubbed surface, but you can always scrub it again.
Individual Target - the thing to be scrubbed.

As for the appearance of the device, there are a number of Rego, Terram and ReTe shape-and-material bonus factors, but in this case I'd allow a "rag" as an appropriate item and guess a +2 S&M bonus. It's hardly going to be needed unless the magus is incompetent in the Lab!

Scrubbing the surface sounds like a dangerous risk to the device - no point - it's sufficient for it to touch + a magic word, or gentle action such as a brief, light circular movement... or trace a rune with it, or whatever.

Having said all this, it's pointless as is, as it takes a whole season by a magus and produces very little result. A much better device would have a Room Target and would, in an moment, scrub and polish everything in the room.

I don't have the GL with me, but it's about ReTe 3
+1 mag Touch, +2 mag Room = level 10
that's one use per day, but I'd add at least 24 uses (+4 levels?)
for a final effect level of 14

If you have a lab total of 28 you can create this in one season as a Lesser Enchanted Device, using 3 pawns of Vis

If you want to make it part of an Invested device, then you must Open the device (tiny, cloth... errm size 1 * base material 2?) 2 pawns to open, then 3 pawns to instill the effect.
BUT that won't work, as the 3 pawns to instill exceeds the capacity of the device, as it only has 2 enchantment spaces.

You need a larger piece of cloth (size factor 2) or larger, and open it with a capacity of at least the 3 pawns for the final effect.

truth be told - it's wasted in an Invested Device - go for the LED;
better still, employ a low-paid servant to perform a wholly mundane version!

For the sword and shield, it was a CrTe of low level, then added levels for Sun duration, 2 times a day, and finally an environmental trigger. The base level was the level used to create an amount of steel or metal.

That then could be used on various other items as well, Creo Herbam for a door that heals itself, Creo Terram for stone walls that heal, Creo Animal for animal hides. In theory maybe you could have the proverbial 'Ring of Regeneration', but you'd get pretty warped by it.

I wouldn't put in on a dishrag because it's a hefty enchantment extra.

//For the sword and shield, it was a CrTe of low level, then added levels for Sun duration, 2 times a day, and finally an environmental trigger. The base level was the level used to create an amount of steel or metal.

That then could be used on various other items as well, Creo Herbam for a door that heals itself, Creo Terram for stone walls that heal, Creo Animal for animal hides. In theory maybe you could have the proverbial 'Ring of Regeneration', but you'd get pretty warped by it.//

That makes sense, then, even under the 5E rules. The device is not actually "healing" itself, but merely conjuring replacement material on a continuous basis, so a continued supply of vis isn't necessary. Of course, if the effect is dispelled, I would expect any damage taken over the lifetime of the device would immediately reappear.

<<effect-you drink it & you change into a bird of some sort
mutocorpus (animal)4(I think)>>

Explain where you came up with the number 4.
Really, if you cannot give some reasoning behind that number that is based off the rules, just stop posting here.

Just a simple note:

The limits to the number of pawns in an item applies just as much for lesser items as for invested ones.

> effect-you drink it & you change into a bird of some sort
> mutocorpus (animal)4(I think)
> duration sun

aside from "too few details", it's hard to know where to begin. I'd like to help, but your results are so wrong, I can't see where you made the mistakes - but your effect level is nonsense.

Can you please get out your ArM book, look up the details of what you were trying, write them down in full in a message, and re-post, and we can try to help you.

Consider questions like: what spell guideline are you using?
What is the RDT of that guideline?
What RDT are you building into the effect you are designing?
Hence... what is the adjusted effect level?
(Check by comparing with listed spells as well; in this case look at the spells "Shape of the Woodland Prowler", and "Cloak of Feathers")

Remember that a step of range, duration or target is a +/- 1 magnitude change to the effect, and is +/- 5 levels (if the level is already 5 or more).

You say "drink it and change..." - are you suggesting a "charged device" which has a number of uses, each use triggers once only and is gone?
If it's a charged device - check the charged device enchantment rules;
if it's not a charged device, then you do not want to say "drink it"! You want the effect to affect someone who touches the device and triggers it.

Answer all these questions, and write down the working that leads to your final answer, and post it here -- *then* we can try to comment sensibly on the design.

> Just a simple note:
>
> The limits to the number of pawns in an item applies just as much for
> lesser items as for invested ones.

quite right - I had not spotted that previously... ArM5 p.96, col. 3 "Lesser Enchantments".

Hmmm - never been a problem IOS as we're Vis short, but, yes it's a limit on small devices (you need a gross Lab Total to be a limit on large devices!)

"Can you please get out your ArM book, look up the details of what you were trying, write them down in full in a message, and re-post, and we can try to help you."

I asked him to do that exact thing...he didn't I selected ignore author on the options menu. While I do feel there is no such thing as a stupid question, I prefer to see some indication that I am not talking to solid rock before attempting to impart knowledge as banging my head on that is only going to cause me a headache.

I applaud you efforts mind you.

Seconded.

Any patience i would have had , left after the 'Abraham Ass' comments.
Ignore has been the best solution , much like how you feel after you stop hitting your head against the brick wall.

Graham.

In my experience, from when I was learning the system - the only way to have a chance to get it right as a learner, is to have the book open alongside you, and to leaf through and cross-reference as you work.

If you have been guessing from memory, it would explain why you are so wildly out.

Take it one step at a time. The book does explain the steps... For a device, start in the Lab Chapter, and make references to the other chapters - but do not guess - CHECK!

Go back, re-read, and try to work one out step-by-step. It is slow the first few times but you will get the hang of it if yo try.
And, if you patiently write out the steps you have taken, you will find plenty of people to help correct those steps... by working from memory you give the impression that you are arrogant and do not care (and have led to several people postingthat they have put you on their "ignore list").

First question: Do you even read the messages people write to you?

Second question: If yes, why won't you do what they suggest?

Third question: If no, why do you keep posting?

Seriously, you either need to take the book, read it, look at the messages people have written in reply to yours, and think the effects over. You keep sending "suggestions" for effects, that do not fit in Ars Magica or are thrown together blindly, without any thinking.

Before your next post, please try to think what you're writing. The good folk here love to help a newcomer, but one that keeps ignoring their advices won't get any help - quite the contrary.

you have the wrong end of the stick...

If a magus wants to make an item, they - personally, as an individual - have a Lab Total. (indeed, they have rather more than 50 different Lab Totals!!)
Their Lab Total for any lab activity is
Intelligence + Magic Theory + (Technique) + Form + Lab Aura.

A particular device, with a particular effect, may get a bonus from Shape & Material.

A different magus, making an identical copy of the same device, uses their own Int + MT + TeFo + their own Lab's Aura.

Let's start at the beginning: a device to throw out small darts of fire. That's Creo Ignem, 'cos it creates fire. Simple, unambiguous effect...

Page 134 of ArM4 crIg guidelines.
basic range is Near, Momentary, Small -- that's just fine for a fiery dart
level 10 - create a fire doing +10 damage.

so.. a spell to create a fiery dart doing +10 damage, out to Near range -OR- a device effect to do the same, both are Level 10 Near/Mom/Small.

To make this into a device, rather than a spell, back to pages 82-88.

The basic device effect is 1 use per day - no use at all! adding +5 levels lets us have 24 uses per day (p. 86). For a simple device, that's all we'll do, so the final effect is level 15 (level 10 for the equivalent of the spell, +5 for 24 uses/day)

Maga Alpha has Int 3, MT 5, Creo 11, Ignem 10, covenant lab aura 5 = 34. When instilling such an effect, she gets lab total - effect level points per season (p. 87) which is 34 - 15 = 18. She can finish this effect in one season.
This also lets her create this as a Lesser Enchanted Device which is a good way to make a small, one effect device - it takes no time to prepare, and consumes less Vis. (On the other hand, you end up wit a lot of LEDs, as each can only have the one enchanted effect... for a multi-effect device you must prepare an Invested Device)

She takes a finger ring - something she will always have accessible and not lose easily, works on it in her lab for a season, and adds 2 pawns of vis (creo or ignem vis) (effect 15, divided by 10, round up), and she has her ring.

Realising this is quite good, but wanting more from it, she decides to make a more powerful fire bolt.
She creates a new design, for a level 15 (+15 damage) blast, again with +5 levels for 24 uses per day, so the level is now 20.
She still has her Lab Total 34, so gets 14 points in a season - bother - she can't finish this so easily... If she could find another +6 lab total? By choosing how the device is made, she can get a bonus...
In 4e (page 87) you only get one "Form And Effect Table" bonus - the best one.
Page 84 lists possible bonus - we're looking for fire or bolts... Ah! A Ruby has +6 bonus to fire-related effect.
This adds to her Lab Total - for this device and effect only, making it 40. She can now create this Bigger Blast Ring, by including a modest ruby on the ring, and still make it as a Lesser Enchanted Device in one season.

Getting excited now - she wishes to make a +20 damage blast - something impressive! Again, the device effect is +5 for uses per day, total level 25.
Her Ruby assisted lab total is 40, so she gets 15 points per season... not enough. Hmmm if she makes an Invested Device, she can take 2 seasons, and make it better.

Back now to the Material & Size Table, page 83. (5th Ed is MUCH clearer in its explanations here...)
Suffice it for now, she opens just the Ruby for enchantment: material 15, times size 1 (tiny) = 15 pawns of vis required to open the device, which will then have 15 enchantment spaces available.
The (4th ed) limit on Vis in the lab is (Vim score + Magic Theory) pawns, so she needs at least Vim 10 for this. (Let's assume she has this)

She spends 1 season to prepare the ruby and ring, using up the 15 pawns of Vim Vis.
She then instills the effect: lab total 40 - level 25 = 15/season.
She spends 2 seasons, after which she has 15+15 = 30, which is more than the 25 levels of the device effect, and it is complete.
Is takes 3 pawns (25/10, round up) of creo or Ignem vis, and uses up 3 enchantment spaces in the ruby.
It took her 3 seasons for this - a modest effect... (The LEDs only took one season each - you always make an LED in 1 season - if it would take longer, you can't make it at all.)

She can go on to add up to another 100 levels of enchantments in this one ruby.

Her friend Constantine with Int 3, Magic Theory 8, Creo 18, Ignem 23, has a Lab Total of 52, even without F&E bonus, and can create more powerful devices, and make them more quickly...

probably a good idea to create a "Glove of Re-Integration" using 'Leibnitz's Formula' and wear both gloves at the same time.

If you accidentally destroy something , you can recreate it.
Wearing both gloves makes the wearer unable to disintegrate himself or any objects on his person.

that's sort of nice, but is not the design method - you should state the device Effect Level.

It's also wrong.

If the enchanter's Lab Total precisely equals the Effect level... then nothing happens - they make 0 progress and will never complete the device.

Check the lab Rules. When Instilling an effect into a device, each season of lab work, the magus accumulates points equal to (Lab Total - Effect Level). When the accumulated points equal or exceed the Effect level, the Effect is complete. To instill an effect over more than one season requires that the device have been opened as an Invested Device in a previous season, and have open, unused "spaces" of at least (Effect Level/10) (round up).

There is a special case: if the magus' Lab Total equals or exceeds TWICE the Effect level, then they can instill the effect in one season - and then they may instead consider making a Lesser Enchanted Device rather than an Invested Device.

>>makes sense!
effect is 70 then.<<

Clearly you have not been paying close enough ettension it is cleerly 71.

I have lost count of the number of times I have suggested to you that if you

a) follow the steps suggested, one by one, you may get a better result
b) write down those steps, and post all of them in detail, then we can help check, and point out if any errors or misunderstandings arise.

Writing "the answer is 70" is increasingly producing widespread derision and lack of sympathy. It's not just "bad at math" it's "incomprehensible to others" - no-one can tell how you came up with what you wrote.

Look, I am keen to help beginners, to work through problems, but you don't help people to help you.

Abraham, --listen to me--

We old hands can see at a glance that you have made mistakes, but because you never write down your steps, we are quite unable to help you.

If you would only sit down with the book, and write down step-by-step working, and type that into the forum, there are lots of people who would try to help, and point out where mistakes were make.

saying "the level is 70" is pointless - which is why we saw the flurry of jokes insisting it was "70.1" - "no, 70.2!" etc...
"70" is just an arbitrary meaningless number - it tells me nothing, other than that it is likely wrong... I have no idea which bits of rules you have misapplied - but I am sure you have done.
If you tell me what you actually did, what you used, then I can help.

How about we set up a PayPal account to purchase a copy of the 5th Ed Ars Magica rules for Abraham?

If all of us who post to these forums give at least $1 , then we can probably manage it fairly easily.

We can work out handling & delivery later on.

Maybe he will have less trouble than with the 4th Ed rules.

Also , a spreadsheet for working out Ars Magica 5th Ed spells wouldnt seem to be beyond the abilities of the various Computer Literate people on the Berk-list.