On page 174 it says you can fast cast a spell(s) and cast a normal spell each round.

Does this mean that it doesn't matter if you fast cast a spell before or after you cast a normal spell that round?
Aside from the added botch dice, why shouldn't a magus fast cast spells every round, and thus in reality get of at least two spells each round?

And a slightly related(?) question. A magus gets a high initiative to cast a formulaic spell; 11 (he has +2 qui, and rolls a 9), and he cast a spell at a opponent standing 2 paces from him (i.e. he is in combat with his opponent). The opponent is a heavily armored grog, he gets initiative 3(initiative total -1 because of encumbrance, rolls a 4).

Can the magus then cast a spell at the grog with impunity? Would you say he gets off his spell before the grog acts, and has nothing to worry about? (save that his opponent should somehow survive his nasty, deadly spell).
Or does he start to cast the spell at initiative 11, and since it takes a few seconds to cast a spell (i.e. a round), he is prone to be interupted anytime during the round? When does the spell come into effect, in other words?
I guess I'm logging along ArM4 conceptions of combat phases, but I'm also struggeling with the seamingly abstract nature of the combat rules.
Give me a quick fix, please!

"On page 174 it says you can fast cast a spell(s) and cast a normal spell each round.

Does this mean that it doesn't matter if you fast cast a spell before or after you cast a normal spell that round?
Aside from the added botch dice, why shouldn't a magus fast cast spells every round, and thus in reality get of at least two spells each round?"

Fast Casting actually has no limit to how many you can cast in a round, in theory. The point of Fast Casting of course is to beat someone else's iniative or action. If there's no one to beat in Iniative, technically, fast casting doesn't or shouldn't happen. Then of course there's the difficulty in the rolls as it increases. A cumulative +6 to the Difficulty for each spell. Finally, these are typically spontaneous spells, if you want them to have an actual effect you're likely to have to spend Fatigue to get even a semi-decent spell casting roll. A fatigue a round to get off a weak spell is not a very good tactic IMO. Very few magi have the skill, power, and speed to fast cast each round as well as cast another spell (fast casted or not). It's meant for a desperate defense, and even then it's effectiveness is limited. Not many will be able to exploit this.

"And a slightly related(?) question. A magus gets a high initiative to cast a spell; 11 (he has +2 qui, and rolls a 9), and he cast a spell at a opponent standing 2 paces from him (i.e. he is in combat with his opponent). The opponent is a heavily armored grog, he gets initiative 3(initiative total -1 because of encumbrance, rolls a 4).

Can the magus then cast a spell at the grog with impunity? Would you say he gets off his spell before the grog acts, and has nothing to worry about? (save that his opponent should somehow survive his nasty, deadly spell).
Or does he start to cast the spell at initiative 11, and since it takes a few seconds to cast a spell (i.e. a round), he is prone to be interupted anytime during the round? When does the spell come into effect, in other words?
I guess I'm logging along ArM4 conceptions of combat phases, but I'm also struggeling with the seamingly abstract nature of the combat rules."

It takes a round to cast a formulaic spell. So if he casts it on phase 11 in the first round, it will go off on phase 11 the second round. So, no he can't cast it with impunity; he starts casting on phase 11 of round 1, the soldier attacks on phase 4 of round 1. The wizard needs to make a tough concentration roll, even if he somehow wasn't hit. Assuming he does make it (and is alive), then the spell goes off as planned on phase 11 of round 2. This is why wizards have shield grogs. In the new rules, the wizard can't be attacked as long as he has a shield grog to go through. The smart wizard will also have long term effects or items that protect them from such base assaults.

Wizards are extraordinarily powerful, but they do have weaknesses, this is one of them. In this case, fast casting a spell ahead of the soldier is a good idea if it can prevent an attack and allow him to get off his formulaic spell. A fast cast Rego Corpus spell that freezes the attacker, for even a Momentary Duration, might buy the wizard enough time to cast the spell and not be attacked while doing so.

"It takes a round to cast a formulaic spell. So if he casts it on phase 11 in the first round, it will go off on phase 11 the second round."

I have no books with me but I'd double check this if I did. this was not my impression from my read through of the combat and magic chapters.

That's understandable, here's what it says in the book, page 174:

"It takles approximately one combat round to cast a formulaic spell, unless it is fast cast."

That right there should answer the question. Since there is no magic phase any more, if it takes one round, it should go off at the same phase of the nest round.

"Thus a magus cannot cast more than one normal spell, or a fast cast and a normal spell, in the same round. A very fast magus might be able to cast more than one fast cast spell, but this is beyond most magi."

This is similar to other games as well. It should work I think as far as flavor and game play are concerned, it's kind of a traditional limitation on wizards that they need time to cast their spells. If it takes a full round, but doesn't go of in the next round, when would the spell actually go off?

I get the impression that ArM5 have been deliberatly simplified and stripped down on most rules exept for labwork, which have been clarified and expanded.
Along with this impression follows that the combat rules are now so simple that such things as phases and tactical considerations are no longer supported by the rules.
If it takes a round to cast a spell, fine. But everyones actions still resolves on their initiative. If Speedius ex Misc gets 12 on his initiative for his spell, the spell resolves then, but Speedius won't get to do anything else this round, since it takes a round to cast a spell. Sounds funny I know, but I'm a bit worried that the combat rules are written to be so simple that it doesn't take this into consideration.
That beeing said, I certanly like your interpretation quite a lot, that Seedius' spell won't resolve before the start of the next round. I must try to get my group to implement that one!

About fast casting, I still belive it is way to good. Any munchkin worth a damn can generate a magus who can fast cast a decent attack spell which he has mastered (off course), and will be able to cast witout spending fatigue.
And if you are a little bit careful about what you choose to interupt with your fast casting, something with low initiative, then presto -one or two extra attack spells each round, in addition to whatever other spell he may choose to cast.
And thus I feel the rules for fast casting encorages something which is contrary to it's intention.

"About fast casting, I still belive it is way to good. Any munchkin worth a damn can generate a magus who can fast cast a decent attack spell which he has mastered (off course), and will be able to cast witout spending fatigue.
And if you are a little bit careful about what you choose to interupt with your fast casting, something with low initiative, then presto -one or two extra attack spells each round, in addition to whatever other spell he may choose to cast.
And thus I feel the rules for fast casting encorages something which is contrary to it's intention"

A Diedne Magi could possibly do what you're suggesting, because they can get off a semi-decent spontaneous spell without spending fatigue. Semi-decent being the operative word, it's still a lousy spell. The main, possibly only, things affected by it would be hapless mundanes and animals, and then only monorly unless the wizard really has a lot of power. The fast cast spell will likely only hinder or distract them, it's the formulaic that leaves behind nothing but smoking boots. I'd be fine with someone attempting to munchkin a fast casting spontaneous wizard, they're going to be disappointed I believe. There's too many things going against it IMO.

If you have mastered a not to high level spell, and chosen fast cast as the mastery ability, then I don't see how you would have a problem with lobbing it around at least two times per round, with just 4 or 5 in Finesse and not a negative Qui. And even a junior magus can generate casting totals of about 30 in his strongest Te-Fo, if you want to make him like that, and most does I think. Then a 20 level spell is quite doable as a fast cast spell.

I'm fine with fast casting spontaneous spells, that's something you can only do so many times per combat. It sort of limits itself when you have spent several fatigue levels. It's the Spell Mastery ability fast casting I think is too powerfull

And I don't know about your saga, but mundanes and nonmagical animals seems to be the way most common opponent in any given combat in our saga.

Ah, so the problem you're referring to is formulaic fast casting. OK, now I see what the issue is. I still don't have much of a problem with it though. They're still not likely to lob around too many fast cast spells, it just gets too restrictive. With multicasting they can typically cast more spells and don't need to worry about making a tough fast cast roll, nor do they get a -10 penalty on their casting rolls. The main difference is it still takes a full round. An extraordinarily skilled wizard is able to accomplish these feats, not usually a beginning one. If they earn that level of power, I'm ok with it.

One of the things about the challenges I have in a saga, they're tailor made for the group. When mundanes aren't a challenge they're not likely to encounter them in such a way, or said encounters will be glossed over. So if I have a wizard starts doing the above, they will be challenged in other ways and/or the mundane challenges they dominate will become boring and glossed over; "OK all the bandits and their horses are dead (with no dice rolled), what do you do now?". It's all about tailoring hte Saga I suppose. However I haven't playtested the issue yet, it might be more of an issue than I'm making it.

" 547.5 in reply to 547.4
If it takes a round to cast a spell, fine. But everyones actions still resolves on their initiative. If Speedius ex Misc gets 12 on his initiative for his spell, the spell resolves then, but Speedius won't get to do anything else this round, since it takes a round to cast a spell. Sounds funny I know, but I'm a bit worried that the combat rules are written to be so simple that it doesn't take this into consideration."

On the other hand an attack also takes a round (remember a round is only a few seconds) so extending your logic above Brutus the grog, initiative 14, starts his swing on his initiative and resolves it next round. The whole point of giving casters initiative is to integrate them into combat, you are trying to separate them out again.

Weapons have initiative bonus, magic does not.

Fast casting does have initiative bonus, it's finesse.
page 83 says that you can fast cast spontanious spell, so I guess it's pretty darn hard to master that one. ;)

My generalist diedne mage could cast about lvl 5 fast cast spell without fatique, like footsteps of Slippery oil. Actually quite cool, thank you for the tip.

So first he fast casts footsteps and then normal casts Mighty torrent of water - make ice and make people slide it with water torrent. That's synenergy!

:)

B5Rebel wrote:
//On the other hand an attack also takes a round (remember a round is only a few seconds) so extending your logic above Brutus the grog, initiative 14, starts his swing on his initiative and resolves it next round. The whole point of giving casters initiative is to integrate them into combat, you are trying to separate them out again.//
I was rather hoping the rules wasn't like I described them, and that someone would point out the flaw of my logic. I'm not trying to do anything much, just a\understand the rules as they are written. (So I can start changing them =)

However it does seem to me that you misunderstood me. gcifer I think suggested that when a magus start casting a formulaic spell, he start at his initiative in round one, and it resolves on that inititative in round two. I kinda like this suggestion, but I am worried that that's not really what it says in the rules.
As I currently understand, each action resolves on the inititiative you rolled (modified by qui, + evt wapon modifiers, + evt encumbrance). But as it takes a full round to cast a formulaic spell, a magus who rolls a high initiative would get off his spell on the start of the round, and then having spent his action standing prone, casting a spell thats allready resovled.
And I'm worried that this is what the rules says, it's rather funnylooking to me, but I can understand it from a simplicity consideration, as it is simpler than having to start an action one round and resolving it the next.

ArtOfMagic wrote:
//Fast casting does have initiative bonus, it's finesse.//
No, fast casting doesn't have initiative, you just roll a test to see if you mangae to interupt whatever it is that you are reacting to.

//page 83 says that you can fast cast spontanious spell, so I guess it's pretty darn hard to master that one. ;)//
You can fast cast formulaic spells as well, you just have to master them, and choose the fast casting ability. You could master them further of course, for other nifty mastery abilities, it just takes time or xp, or both.

"On the other hand an attack also takes a round (remember a round is only a few seconds) so extending your logic above Brutus the grog, initiative 14, starts his swing on his initiative and resolves it next round."

I see where you're going with this, but it still gets finished in the same round it begins. Basically ask yourself this, when does the attack get resolved? Immediately. You roll to attack, they roll to defend, it gets through or it doesn't, and the other then does the same, this gets repeated in the next round. It might take a round, but it also gets completed in the round, and is also the only thing they can do.

Ask the same question of the wizard's spell, when does it get resolved? It gets resolved in a full round, OK, but when? Well if they go on 12, and it takes a full round, when does it happen? Does it happen at the end of everyone else's turn? If so, what's the point if having his iniative place determined at all? Even if he goes first or last in a round, his spell goes off dead last in the round. At least if you have it go off in the next round, the wizard's iniative means something, it will happen on his turn next round. All this really means is that in the first turn, the wizard won't get off a spell, after the first turn a spell can be going off every round. Round 1 he casts a spell, round 2 it goes off, Round 2 he casts a spell, round 3 it goes off, round 3 he casts a spell, round 4 it goess off...etc. It might take a round to do it, but iniative is still used. If it all gets resolved in the same round, then it all happens at the end, because logically that's the only place it fits. Then their iniative order just determines who's spell goes off first at the end, wizard A's or wizard B's.

>No, fast casting doesn't have initiative, you just roll a test to >see if you mangae to interupt whatever it is that you are reacting to.

Thank you, I had hard time to understand the text.

>You can fast cast formulaic spells as well, you just have to master >them, and choose the fast casting ability. You could master them >further of course, for other nifty mastery abilities, it just takes >time or xp, or both.

Thank you for the information but you forgot to tell me the page where I can find this information as I did not find it on page 83. I guess I have to see mastery description, a detail I find strange, because fast casting should be described at fast casting page.

Okay, I found it on page 87, a nice reason to take a virtue Flawless magic. It's not that useful to fast cast spontanious spells but it is a good idea to master one defensive spell.

It used to be in previous versions that formulaic magic was painfully slow but in 5th edition it is not.

Those who have gotten use to this slow pace may overlook new rules at that part.

//It used to be in previous versions that formulaic magic was painfully slow but in 5th edition it is not.

Those who have gotten use to this slow pace may overlook new rules at that part.//

Well, if you buy gcifer's interpretation, which I kinda like, it's still pretty slow.
You start casting a formulaic spell on the initiative you roll in round one, and it resolves on that initiative in round two.

David Chart
Ars Magica 5th Edition Developer:

"First, physical combat is not the central emphasis of
the game; the central emphasis is magic. Thus, the
combat system should be quick to use, quicker than
ArM4. Further, magic should integrate straight into
combat, rather than being relegated to a segment
stuck onto the end of the combat round."

"First, physical combat is not the central emphasis of
the game; the central emphasis is magic. Thus, the
combat system should be quick to use, quicker than
ArM4. Further, magic should integrate straight into
combat, rather than being relegated to a segment
stuck onto the end of the combat round."

Thank you(!) for finding this pearl of wisdom, directly from the horses mouth, so to speak. I've been looking for some sort of statement of intent like this, and it ties in very nicely with my impression of ArM5, that the emphasis is on magic and not combat, indeed.
It's nice to have this in mind when reading the rules, makes it easier to understand.

However, as I see it, this might as well be used to support gcifer's interpretation about spells in combat.
I don't see that it makes combat any slower, quite the opposite. And it doesn't relegate magic to segment at the end of combat, it just takes the magus a round to get started.

One often used rule with roleplaying games is "that what is not forbidden is allowed." and another rule used is "what I do not like, I change and call it a house rule"

I see nothing that would say you cannot have spell effect start the next turn.

Except naturally fast casting that is designed to happen the same time as offending action.

"No, fast casting doesn't have initiative, you just roll a test to see if you mangae to interupt whatever it is that you are reacting to."

What is the difference? It seems that interruption method is more flexible and you do not have to worry about normal order of initiative.

Amber is really clear in that way that there is so little rules that players HAVE TO invent new ways to exploit their power just to survive. Basically you cannot munchkin with powers because you can only invent new ways to use those basic powers that are so open that most things you invent are allowed with them.

It can be hard for a gm to keep up with players, elder amberites should be more inventive than younger amberites but it's you against multiple creative minds when you run a game. Tough.