By your logic, I'm guessing it's acceptable for a non-Verditus magi to
to use it as a modifier to their lab total?

The way I understand the virtue "Free Expression" concerning Vertitius magi is that it would make him a "Da Vinci" among his already talented peers... I suppose what I'm wondering is, how, what, where and when is the +3 mechanic applied?

Edited 2/15/2005 2:07 pm ET by Q_Verditius

hmm... I pondered it a bit, I think I have a solution to my own question, besides a dismissive hackmaster "no" that doesnt even address the capabilities of this virtue.

The mechanic of the virtue states: "+3 on all rolls to create a work of art"... there is no specific or non-specific mention of "items or magic items".

Is magic an art?
Are magic effects artistic?
Are magic items a "work of art"?
Are there some magi better at art than others?

Perhaps the +3 mechanic is limited to the creation of effects (like imagonem) which universally awe, inspire, delight and provokes thought...
Perhaps it's limited to effects that lie in the realm of "Artes Liberales"...

I'm more interested in a real interpretive discussion of this virtue, rather than an arbitrary "house rule".

"I'm more interested in a real interpretive discussion of this virtue, rather than an arbitrary "house rule".

OK, but that's not really how you asked the question initially, it seemed like you did want a rules interpretation. Basically, regardless of interpretations, one has to consider at what point the virtue should take effect. It takes effect at the creation of the item, which is before the enchantment process. The virtue is also not a Hermetic virtue. Those two things combined tell me that this really doesn't apply. Magic is an Art, but each spell is not necessarily a work of art per se. I can see where you might make a judgement call with regard to Imaginem though. However IMO there are already enough virtues there to boost your Arts, that you don't need to take a virtue designed for mundane abilities to improve yours still more. It seems too much like gaming the system. Put simply if a player in my group asked for this bonus, and presented their argument as you have, I'd say no, and that if they want a bonus on their Art, take Puissant Art or a Magic Focus, that's why those Virtues are there.

>Is magic an art?
>Are magic effects artistic?
>Are magic items a "work of art"?
>Are there some magi better at art than others?

Funny questions from someone who's playing ArsMagica. I think you have your answers from the tittle of the game itself and the fact that even if Rego is a thecnik and Terram a Form, both are arts. Even tho the point-system is only that, a system, it shows some Magus are better than others in some area of this 'art of magic'.

Even if you can make a Magi wich is very technocrate, mathematic and the like, I think we should set aside rules-numbers and dwell deeper in the art and imagination this game was meant for....

//Even if you can make a Magi wich is very technocrate, mathematic and the like, I think we should set aside rules-numbers and dwell deeper in the art and imagination this game was meant for....//
Hmmm... I think you should do that.
And if you would influence other to your way of playing, start a topic on it, and get a constructive discussion going.
You will convince very few with sourmouthed criticism, but perhaps be inspired by enlightened discussion.

<<<However IMO there are already enough virtues there to boost your Arts, that you don't need to take a virtue designed for mundane abilities to improve yours still more. It seems too much like gaming the system>>>

I hear ya, but this is the part that bugs me.
If this were strictly a mundane virtue, why not include a clause prohibiting magi to purchase it, as per the "Wealthy" and "Poor" virtue? As I understand, the clause placed for those virtues assumes that all magi have all their earthly needs taken care of by covenfolk.
Also, as I see it.. "a work of art" is the finished product, as interpreted by others... be it item, song, or prose.

I took the "Free Expression" to represent that the magi I designed is a DaVinci type character... an inventor that shines a little above his peers... a type of artist who's work would be sought after by magi (as well as other Verditius, and mundanes alike. The nature of an artist isnt merely a high skill or reputation, it's an ability to uniquely interpret an underlying sense of aesthetics which as such, ultimately translates into star quality to others.

Whether the virtue had a mechanic connected with it or not, I would have taken it anyway... as it best describes my magi; But since it does have a mechanic, i was seeking imput and ideas on how to apply it, as it would seem silly just to abstract it.

I'd say it adds 3 to your craft score for use of the verdius mystery.
(Offcourse this only applies to an lasting items of a new design, so no use of lab-texts).

Pouring over the pages of ArM5, I found an interesting clause that may fit perfectly with the Free Expression virtue...
on pg. 77 in the general description of the "Creo" technique it says:

"Creating an artificial thing by magic requires some skill on the part of the magus, reflected by his FINESSE ability. An INT + FINESSE roll is made to determine how GOOD the created thing is"

...ergo, the +3 mechanic could be feasibly applied to Creo effects requiring an INT + FINESSE check to determine the artistic quality.

Food for thought?

Not just spells, but effects as well... a magic item uses the Finesse score of it's wielder, not creator.

hmm... a little off the subject, how does one account finesse/aiming/targeting on a magic item in the hands of a mundane user?