Ars Magica psionics
From: abrahamray Posted on: 2/23/2005 4:48 pm
To: ALL
Message: 557.1
how are psionics handled in ars magica?
are they spheres/abilities or something different?
From: qcifer Posted on: 2/23/2005 5:06 pm
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.2
in reply to: 557.1
Psionins and the concept of mental powers is not really in the medieval paradigm. The Mentem Art handles mind powers, but only as spells. Creatures might have mental powers but these will also be fornatted as pells for convenience.
From: ArMSteve Posted on: 2/23/2005 5:38 pm
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.3
in reply to: 557.1

There is no such thing as "psionics" in Ars Magica. ArM is
a mostly-medieval game, and psi is a mostly-modern concept,
more suited to sci-fi and to the "eclectic fantasy" games
such as D&D (which has been known to include lasers).

You may want to look into the ArM4 supplement "Hedge Magic"
and the "Ascetic" there -- it's AFAIK the closest ArM has
come to anything like psi-powers.

I note your use of the term "spheres" -- IIRC, a WW/Mage
term. Note that the games, and worlds, are ENTIRELY
separate. There are no M:tA "spheres" in ArM, despite some
overlap in other terminology. Psi, IMHO, will work nicely
in a M:tA game, whether implemented as PC-available magic
via dots-of-rank in "spheres" mechanism, or some other way.

But I don't really see it in ArM.

- Steve S.

From: mithriel Posted on: 2/24/2005 2:41 am
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.4
in reply to: 557.1
Magi who are able to cast magi without words nor gesture are sometimes humourously called psis. :)
From: abrahamray Posted on: 2/25/2005 3:02 pm
To: ALL
Message: 557.5
in reply to: 557.4
sorry,I was thinking of possible translations of the psionics from dnds complete psioncs handbooks.
From: ArMSteve Posted on: 2/26/2005 10:44 am
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.6
in reply to: 557.5


> sorry,I was thinking of possible translations of
> the psionics from dnds complete psioncs handbooks.

Personally, I wouldn't bother. It just doesn't "feel"
like ArM to me. However, d20 rules aren't too dissimilar
from ArM's mechanics, so the translation should be a
pretty easy mechanism, modulo any "level"-based effects.

- Steve S.

From: qcifer Posted on: 2/26/2005 1:08 pm
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.7
in reply to: 557.5

There is an established system for it. The bestiary goes over creatures with Might and the powers they have. Assign a creature (ghosts often have 'mental powers') a Might score, and then design some spells using the normal rules, spells like Rego Mentem (controlling their mind), Perdo Mentem (removing memories or even thought processes), Muto Mentem (changing their beliefs), as well as Imaginem spells which go well with mental powers.

That'd be the best way for it. Design a spell that is like a mental power, and use the guidelines given for spell design. Assign a Might cost and add it to a creature's repertorie. No one's saying you can't do it, but mentalists and psionicists are just not in the flavor of ArM. But it wouldn't be too hard to do it. The bestiary and spell design chapters should be all you need.

From: ArMSteve Posted on: 2/26/2005 6:34 pm
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.8
in reply to: 557.1


One other idea -- you might join the mailing-list specific to ArM
in worlds OTHER than Mythic Europe.

From Project Redcap's ML page (http://redcap.org/lists.html):

Subscribe by sending a message to
requests@tearsinrain.com
with 'subscribe NewWorlds' in the subject, or
'subscribe NewWorldsDigest' to receive the weekly digest.
Posting to the list is via NewWorlds@tearsinrain.com and the
list is hosted by the Library of Evremere website.

That crowd may well already have ArM in the Forgotten Realms, with
working PSI conversions etc.

- Steve S.

From: abrahamray Posted on: 3/15/2005 8:54 pm
To: ArMSteve
Message: 557.9
in reply to: 557.8
heres acouple of psionic powers that I was thinking of
time sense-you can tell the time down to the second
face change-you can change you face to any form you can think of!
From: mithriel Posted on: 3/16/2005 1:56 am
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.10
in reply to: 557.9
Not very "Ars Magica" IMHO.
From: caribet Posted on: 3/16/2005 3:41 am
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.11
in reply to: 557.9

In straight, out-of-the-book, Ars Magica, "Time" is beyond affecting - beyond the Limit of Time.
Magic cannot affect Time, nor sense it.

Some non-Hermetic powers claim to be able to predict the future, but this contradicts the Divine Gift of Free Will, and such claims are therefore heresy in the eyes of the Church.

Oh... you're talking about "psio-whotsit-thingummy"... sorry. There is *Magic* in Ars Magica, but I can't really say that people having "Mind Powers" is a Mediaeval thing.

If you are running a parallel-universe, using something approximating the Ars Magica rules as the core of an extended but variant system, then I wish you well, but i'm afraid that most ArM players stick rather closer to the core than your experiments.

From: Draco Posted on: 3/16/2005 7:19 am
To: ALL
Message: 557.12
in reply to: 557.9

>"timesense"

Sounds like a strange power in a world where time-keeping is done by hourglasses and the position of the sun.

>"face change"
standard illusion...

---

Both of these sounds like something that a demon might grant someone, though... Giving a man a feeling of every second that passes would cause stress and despair, and the power of the "face change" illusion would be a nice way to tempt someone to do more sins...

From: ArMSteve Posted on: 3/16/2005 12:00 pm
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.13
in reply to: 557.9

> time sense - you can tell the time down to the second

As someone has pointed out, this level of precision has a VERY odd
feel in a world where time is often measured by sundial, lengths of
candle burnt-down, etc. Probably the keenest time-keepers are the
Church (particularly in Abbeys/Monastaries, many of whose members
sing/pray canonical hours (Lauds, Prime, etc), but even they mostly
follow more natural dawn/dusk cycles, not the modern all-hours-of-
equal-length).

From a metagame perspective, I'd have to wonder -- what *USE* is
it??? For example, you couldn't do a "Mission Impossible" schtick
where you're hidden (e.g. inside a shipment) as you penetrate castle
security (but can figure out *THE* window to break out, when guards
will be elsewhere, due to your Time Sense) -- most of the rest of
the world won't be sticking closely enough to any schedule for you
to reliably know they'll be walking their rounds *NOW* instead of
20-30 minutes sooner or later...

> face change-you can change you face to any form you can think of!

<puzzlement> Is this particularly "psi"-feeling? It doesn't fit into
the classical "Telekinesis/Telepathy/Clairvoyance" trio that IMHO are
the staple "Holy Trinity" of psience-fiction. Also note that there
are spells in the book to do exactly this. A psi character is all-
too-likely to find much of his/her thunder stolen by magi...

Again, let me say that:
1) "psi" is really quite *UN*-medieval in feel, so although you
clearly *COULD* graft psionics-mechanics onto the (really quite
clean and elegant) ArM d10+skill+trait / pyramid-buy mechanics
(likely as a suite of Virtues that each gave access to a skill,
along the same mechanical line as the other Supernatural Skills
such as Second Sight)... well, despite a *mechanical* fit, there
really isn't a good fit to the setting of Mythic Europe.
2) There are a few similar ways to go, while staying inside the
canonical paradigm: the "Ascetic" from the 4e "Hedge Magic"
supplement is a worker-of-supernatural, powered by his or her
own "purity." The Ascetic seeks to transcend the mundane world
and its boundaries and limitations.
3) Finally, note some existing supernatural Virtues/Flaws, such as
"Visions," which *can* be viewed in a semi-psi perspective as
akin to Clairvoyance/etc.

Last but not least: if it floats your boat, go for it; but as others
have remarked, psionics really don't fit into Mythic Europe, so don't
expect widespread & enthusiastic response, even if you do get a nice
little set of ArM-psi rules made.

But, good luck with your project anyway!

- Steve S.



Edited 3/16/2005 12:03 pm ET by ArMSteve
From: abrahamray Posted on: 3/17/2005 6:27 pm
To: ALL
Message: 557.14
in reply to: 557.12
ok then how about this one animate objects?
animal affinity?(this one allows you to take certain fetures of animals,not the whole animal just parts of it)
also time sense could help the wizard time his spells better(this spell/power probibly would be a lab spell only)
as for face change mirlin did something simmiler,you know

Edited 3/17/2005 6:30 pm ET by abrahamray
From: caribet Posted on: 3/18/2005 3:01 am
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.15
in reply to: 557.14

you use Rego Terram spells to animate objects.

Taking on the features of animals is Muto Corpus (Animal).

Time is not an Ars Magica manipulable entity

Face change is a standard spell - RTFM

From: abrahamray Posted on: 3/22/2005 7:21 pm
To: caribet
Message: 557.16
in reply to: 557.15
how about aura reading?
cryokenisis?
From: caribet Posted on: 3/23/2005 3:40 am
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.17
in reply to: 557.16

If I have some vague idea what you might mean by Aura, you will find there are several existing Virtues which cover this: Second Sight, Sense Holiness & Unholiness, Magic Sensitivity. Also, see the 4th Ed supplement Faeries II, and (when we get it, I presume the forthcoming Faeries-for-5th-Ed), as Faeries can often sense motives etc. Faerie Blood, and hence a limited range of Faerie powers, is quite common in Mythic Europe.

Obviously, Angels & Devils can do so: we have a 5th Ed Divine book coming within the year, so you may find things there if the character is Holy. Holy characters are quite common, but can be difficult to play unless you take on the right mindset; Infernal characters are easy, but are picked-on Bad Guys, reviled by everyone. (No, no "mixed alignment" parties...)

I have no idea what you mean by cryokinesis. The word stems indicate "cold" + "movement" which does not make sense. Do you mean using Rego Ignem magic?

(Do not forget, as we have said before, there is no such idea as Mentalism or Psionics in Mediaeval times, and hence no such thing exists in the standard Mythic Europe. Nothing. No Psi...
Asking "what about XXX as a Psi-power" is not a good starting point - instead you should say, what can I do with YYY which is a Mediaeval idea, how is it different from the present, what makes it interesting - can I make cool, fun stories playing up on this, which will entertain the whole group and take advantage of the unique distinctiveness of this game & its setting.)

You may find it useful to download the various free offerings on the Atlas Games web-site - both the 4th Ed starter-adventures like "Promises, Promises", and the new "Living Covenant" for 5th Ed which has a set of fully statted magi and companions, plus a bunch of (wacky) grogs. These are the kind of folk who are "normal" in Mythic Europe... well, ok, "normal" to find in a Covenant - they are more rare in mundane society.

There are also a number of 4th Ed books available with extensive write-ups of characters, which would give you a good idea of what ME people are like.

From: abrahamray Posted on: 3/24/2005 5:55 pm
To: caribet
Message: 557.18
in reply to: 557.17
yes I meant a hermatic magic,also cryokenisis Is the mental art of freezing objects.
From: caribet Posted on: 3/25/2005 4:09 am
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.19
in reply to: 557.18

if you want to learn about Ars Magica, you need to drop the idea of "mentalism"... it had no equivalent in the 13th Century.

Chilling things is, however, very simply Perdo Ignem.

From: abrahamray Posted on: 3/29/2005 5:28 pm
To: caribet
Message: 557.20
in reply to: 557.19
yeh,that makes sense.
From: abrahamray Posted on: May-4 7:26 pm
To: ALL
Message: 557.21
in reply to: 557.20
for future reference I thought that the translating part of the idea was a good idea at the time!
psionic power traslation ideas-precognition & postcognition.
From: daoc2k Posted on: May-5 2:01 am
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.22
in reply to: 557.21
Precognition and postcognition are specifically prohibited via Hermetic magic in 5e....RTFM
From: Ravenscroft Posted on: May-5 2:47 am
To: ALL
Message: 557.23
in reply to: 557.22

Pre and Post cognition as per breaking the 'limit of time' are disallowed for hermetic magic.

But what about Psychometry? Strong emotions and Mental Images may be imprinted on some items (or in Places) and these could be picked up by an InMe spell.

According to the InMe guidelines on page 149 in 5th Ed you would need the appropriate requisites as well e.g. Animal , Herbam or Terram since you arent reading from a living mind.

From: abrahamray Posted on: May-5 5:52 pm
To: Ravenscroft
Message: 557.24
in reply to: 557.23
postcognition is the mental art of reading the past(I think)just for future refernce.
From: daoc2k Posted on: May-6 12:34 am
To: abrahamray
Message: 557.25
in reply to: 557.24
Postcognition is still prohibited in Ars Magica 5th ed
From: JackdeMolay Posted on: May-6 10:43 am
To: daoc2k
Message: 557.26
in reply to: 557.25

I think prohibited is too strong a word.

Magi are unable to see into the past and future because of a minor limitation, meaning that Hermetic Theory could just be insufficient to allow for it. Depending on the story guide and campaign that limit could be broken by original research.

From: daoc2k Posted on: May-6 4:12 pm
To: JackdeMolay
Message: 557.27
in reply to: 557.26
However from previous postings the OP does not comprehend the fundementals of the game. Saying that it is possible with original research will simply muddy the waters for someone who is posting spell names from other games and taunting you into providing Ars Magica equivilents.
From: JackdeMolay Posted on: May-7 1:30 pm
To: daoc2k
Message: 557.28
in reply to: 557.27
You're assuming that I'm posting with the intention of assisting the OP to understand. I couldn't care less. If one can't take the time to read the book, I'm not going to waste my time assisting him.