Hello fellow gamers!

My gaming group are about to commence on a campaign based upon the supplement Land of Fire and Ice made for the 4th edition Ars Magica.

Our gaming group will consist of me and a couple of first time Ars player, our storyguide have played Ars before but have never been a storyguide before, but was convinced to try when she got her hands on the supplement Land of Fire and Ice. As long as I help out with some of the more complex game mechanics.

The campaign book is as far I can tell made for a beginner group / storyguide, however it is for the 4th edition and we both have the 4th and the 5th edition avaible. Since I can't read it I have a hard time knowing how compatible it is with the new edition.

The reason I'm posting here is because I'm wondering if the campaign could work with the fifth edition with some minor adjustments, or should we stick to the fourth edition?

- cihset

I'm currently playing a LoFaI saga. Off the top of my head, two things you'll need to have a look at are:

- Icelandic magician magic protection: you might want to tone it down;

- magical creatures might: it should definitely be lowered to fit with the new penetration rules.

Hello cihset,

LoFaI as published is not really compatible with ArM5 on several levels, and needs thorough adaptations before really working with it.

In particular, and with no claim of completeness:
- The society of Icelandic magic workers needs some way to overcome the ArM5 effects of their Gifts on each other to be as stable and cooperative as described in LoFaI. Their means to do that would be of enormous interest for the Order of Hermes, of course, and open up whole new storylines beyond ArM4 LoFaI.
- LoFaI Schooled Galdramen are just ArM4 Natural Magicians. I expect some major reworking to be done on these in ArM5, but currently there are no ArM5 rules at all for them. Just using the ArM4 HM Natural Magician with ArM5 until ArM5 rules are available risks to unbalance your campaign, especially with respect to the access of Characters to Vis.
- Virtues and Flaws have been reworked mechanically in ArM5, so LoFaI Trollskap Magic bestowing Virtues and Flaws will have to be rewritten, too. I have not given this much thought, hence cannot tell whether there is an easy way to do it.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Thanks for the input.

I'm right now comparing 4th and 5th edition of Ars Magica, in perhaps an attempt on trying to create a hybrid version for playing in the LoFai saga. We're now using the new virtues and flaws and it seems to work ok, with some small adjustments.

Now, when comparing studytotals from 4th and 5th I've noticed that you seem to gain more experience while studying books in 5th ed than in 4th.

Study total for an art from a Summa in 4th ed is Int+conc+quality, this I dislike somewhat since it's A and O for an character to have high INT and level in concentration, I'd prefer a study total which is non-dependant on characteristics. However in 5th ed Ars magica the Study total on a Summa is from what I can understand, level + Quality.

Hence Studying a level 15 summae with 5 in quality will render a character 20 exp per season, compared to around 10-12 experience points in 4th ed.

I was under the assumption that one gained experience and levels slower in 5th edition, but this seems to contradict my assessment. Can it be that I've misunderstood how the study totals are gained in 5th ed?

Regards - cihset

Ah, I see.

But it says in chapter ten that Study total for
SUMMAE: SOURCE = Quality and Level.

Hence I interpreted it as quality + level for study total. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'm dis-beliving you, just that the writing is ambigous and can be interpreted the way I did. I have found no further explanation on the subject, anyone who can help me out here since I wont be the only one in my playergroup who comes up with this assessment of the studytotal?

Regards - cihset

cihset,

you find the decisive post of David Chart here: http://forums.delphiforums.com/atlasgames/messages?msg=532.20, and an entry in the Redcap-FAQ here: http://redcap.org/FAQ/FAQ2.html#summae.

So even the most demanding fans used to request direct answers from John Nephew or David Chart (see: http://forums.delphiforums.com/atlasgames/messages?msg=564.22 or http://forums.delphiforums.com/atlasgames/messages?msg=532.5) should be content with the rules clarification provided this time.

Kind regards,

Berengar

//So even the most demanding fans used to request direct answers from John Nephew or David Chart ((Insert unecessary Links here)) should be content with the rules clarification provided this time. //

Well, damn our eyes for reading the first page of the Forums website, and thinking they meant it.

As reference, I quote:

"The Atlas Games discussion boards feature commentary from the people who bring you award-winning card, board, and roleplaying games. This is the only official site on the internet where you can have your comments read by the Atlas staff and get your questions answered by the foremost experts on your favorite games. Join the community and share your opinions with other fans, gaming professionals, and Atlas Games employees and designers! "

I know, B., I know... you've been playing this game for 15 years, and have a deep and stickily intimate relationship with the rulebooks, but I personally think that Senores Nephew and Chart qualify as "foremost experts," much rather than yourself, myself, or any other Gamer. We fall into the lesser category of "sharing your opinions."

But that's just my opinion. Enjoy your Holidays.
J.

// Well, damn our eyes for reading the first page of the Forums website, and thinking they meant it.

I'm puzzled as to why you seem to have taken offense. The rules clarification in this case actually was provided by David Chart. Doesn't that prove that they did mean it?

Cihset,

as Berengar points out LoFaI needs major reworking to fit into ArM5.

In fact, the more pronounced effect of the Gift in ArM5 can be considered to be the major fobstacle - one of the authors of the supplement has stated on the Berklist that if interpreted literally, this redefinition makes the society of Icelandic magic portrayed impossible under the ArM5 rules.

There was a recent Berklist flamewar over this.

Unfortunately this means he (the author) is unlikely to contribute to any conversion of LoFaI to ArM5 - a call was put out on the Berklist a month or so ago for authors of the more "peripheral" Tribunal books and supplements to consider providing conversion notes for ArM5 either on their websites or in Hermes Portal (the Ars Magica English ezine). Apart from the author of Blood & Sand providing an addendum to his already excellent web-supplement, this call seems to have gone unanswered.

Schooled galdramen may not necessarily be a large part of an Icelandic Saga, but if they are, the realisation of Natural Magicians in ArM5 will likely need considerable thought.

I don't see the V&F change as insurmountable, although it would be perhaps tedious.

The redefinition of 'General" Magic Resistance to be a virtually exclusively Hermetic phenomenon has fairly major implications for the setting's hedge magic traditions and how they interact with the various creatures with Magic Might in Iceland. This obstacle is perhaps common to any ArM4 supplement being converted to ArM5, but would seem to be a major hurdle given the high-magic style default of Iceland as portrayed in LoFaI.

I'm not going to bang on about this, since last time I did I got into a polite argument with the line-editor (we agree to disagree, although some mutual ground was established).

To be honest, it seems that most Ars players don't care much about hedgies anyway.

Which is all a pity, since LoFaI is an excellent ArM4 supplement IMHO - even if it's not readily generalisable or useful to the majority of Ars sagas. It's perhaps best suited as an alternate campaign setting for Ars Magica, similar to the various settings for the prior incarnation of 3E.

I made some suggestions about conversion of ArM4 hedge wizards (in particular those of LoFaI) in this thread a while ago:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/atlasgames/messages?msg=474.58

Regards,

Jarkman

I have deduced from all your replies here that the biggest obstacles with 4th to 5th with LoFaI in mind are Icelandic hedgewizard traditions and magic resistance. Since these two also are kind of connected (from what I reckon they recieve magic resistance from their skills combined) I and the Storyguide have agreed on using the old 4th ed magic resistance and penentration rules.

We also use somewhat of a Hybrid of the old and new study-totals to recieve more experience while studying since the campaign is made with 4th ed in mind.

However, with this comes some uncertainties. Major Magical Focus, the most potential powerful virtue in the 5th edition (especially combined with affinities) The potential of this virtue has made it most interesting for us players, and since I'm responsible of most the ruledecisions in the campaign, the lot comes upon me to decide how it is to be used. The list of sample Foci in the rulebook actuallly has made me somewhat confused since some Foci seems to be more broad in terms than others (compare for example 'birds' or 'mammals' which only covers parts of Animal to 'damage' or 'flames' which pretty much covers all of Perdo / Ignem.

Tricky Virtue, indeed.

* SPOILER ALERT - LoFaI - *
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Anyways, now our Saga has begun ever so slightly, we had a blast getting to Iceland and we are currently inside an old underground covenant, where we captured a women diabolist Maga which we are quite unsure what to do with. Since two out of three in our group are new to the Ars Magica world they really considered the option of allying ourselves with her covenant, or atleast blackmailing them for our own needs. (One of the characters in the group is a Necromance who is set on conquering the known world with hordes of undead). Currently we are keeping her captive down in the covenant with blindfolds, chains and a (undead) guard. She accidently told us she was the only one in her Covenant who knows about the whereabouts of this underground covenant and that's the main reason we are keeping her captive until we come up with a way to protect the covenant from attacks.

My character is currently contemplating on constructing a Rego-Mentem collar (lesser enchantment) with a constant Enslaving the Mortal mind effect enchanted into it for her (and perhaps her covenmates as well ). With a 7-year expire date it seems just to be in the range of his capabilities.

We have already broken the code at so many levels so I figure why not go all the way.

This might just actually turn out to be the funnist Ars saga I've participated in yet (or the shortest, if we encounter any Quasitores) :)

Regards - cihset

If this can help, here is another LoFaI saga. We started with ArM4 and ended up with ArM5.

http://darmont.free.fr/arm/?page=arm-snaefell&lang=eng

//I'm puzzled as to why you seem to have taken offense. The rules clarification in this case actually was provided by David Chart. Doesn't that prove that they did mean it?//

The offense was taken with Herr Berengar, and his implication that the expectation of an answer from the Atlas Folks was somehow overstepping ourselves.

Several threads on this Forum have received direct answers from The Nephew and/or The Chart, and they have all been very helpful. Moreover, "coming from above" as they do, I am willing to consider them as definitive Rules Clarification.

Anything else on this Forum is just the interpretation of fallible mortals. :-)
J.

// The offense was taken with Herr Berengar, and his implication that the expectation of an answer from the Atlas Folks was somehow overstepping ourselves. //

Well, Berengar was quoting a post of mine where I was getting snippy with someone who was expecting just such an answer. I went back and edited it to clarify what I meant.

Back from holidays, I find two issues to address here.

First timing, of course:
I see that a wondrous gentleman, who was apparently absent from the board for ten days to two weeks before 17th of March, notices within one hour when I get off the board (see http://forums.delphiforums.com/atlasgames/messages?msg=577.6).
Were you lurking with colours hidden all that time? Or are you just incredibly lucky?

Second, the merit of your post:
//I personally think that Senores Nephew and Chart qualify as "foremost experts,"//.
You also got David Chart's response on your rather insolently phrased question:
//If the actual Rule is that Summae give only Quality in XP for a season of Study... ... *shudder* ... ... time for a House Rule.

Mr. Nephew... any comments?// (see http://forums.delphiforums.com/atlasgames/messages?msg=532.5).
So you ought to be happy about the Forum's advertisement being true, while I can show your post as a bad example to others.

Kind regards,

Berengar