I am wondering why these are Major virtue/flaws? Is it solely to encourage Companions to have all interactions with mundane types? This is the only reason I can think of.

There must be some plot reason for making them major, because the game mechanics suggest that they should be minor. The virtues and flaws basically just shift the normal reaction modifier by three in one direction or the other. Other flaw or virtues that shift reaction modifiers by three or impair the character's ability to interact with the mundane society in similar ways are minor. For example the following virtue/flaws are all minor: Branded Criminal, Outcast, Social Handicap, Tainted with Evil, Infamous and Famous.

It seems to me that making these two versions of the Gift Major has at least two problems.

First, the Blatant gift is under-priced. The new emphasis on the social handicap that accompanies The Gift has already worked to limit the interaction of Magi with mundane society. The Blatant Gift effectively gives lab rats a free Major Flaw. Fellow magi aren't affected and mundanes already are disturbed by "normal" magi, the Blatant Gift only strengthens this feeling. What extra problems does a Blatant Gift having magus encounter that a normal magi doesn't? He is already going to freak the mundanes. He's already going to rely on a glib companion to do his talking.

Second, the Gentle Gift is over-priced. The Gentle Gift merely allows a magi to interact with mundanes instead of always going through companions. In return the magus gives up any ability to ever have a Major Hermetic virtue. This is a huge disadvantage. The Major Hermetic virtues are what allow a magus to specialize in something. With the Gentle Gift being Major, it makes the Jerbiton magus (the only house I can ever see wanting to blow their only major virtue on Gentle Gift) a second rate magus. Given the need for Housae Jerbiton to interact with mundanes on a regular basis, it seems that they almost need to take the Gentle Gift. This makes House Jerbiton a second-rate house, which is wrong. Everyone knows Ex Miscellanea is supposed to be the second-rate house. ;-)

What would be the game effects of making both of these versions of the Gift minor?

1. More Jerbiton would take Gentle Gift, because they could still be decent spell-casters.

2. Jerbiton could potentially take Gentle Gift as their house virtue.

3. People would be more willing to play Jerbiton magi.

4. Lab Rats wouldn't get the reduced price Major Flaw, and would have to come up with some other major flaw.

Some potential problems I see with making the virtue/flaw Minor:

1. "Everyone will take Gentle Gift because it's minor and cheap."
I doubt it. If someone has an extra Minor Virtue left over after character creation, I think most players would rather take Arcane Lore or Improved Characteristics.

2. "Nobody will take Blatant Gift."
I doubt this too. Because Lab Rats will still be looking for that minor flaw, which won't really hurt them.

3. "A cheap Gentle Gift will limit the usefullness of Companions."
Generally, there's only one or maybe two companions really built to be social animals. If a magus or two takes Gentle Gift, they are still going to be spending most adventures in the covenant, otherwise their magical skills will fall behind their peers. The companion will still have a role to play. If magi are always coming on adventures, make them last long enough that the season is ruined for study. If the magus still comes, then he's making the choice to trade adventure experience for lab experience.

Any thoughts? I'm really leaning on making these both minor in my campaign. I'd be interested to see what people think I'm getting myself into.

Thanks.

If you can honestly see these as being ok as minor in your campaign, then you're probably doing one of two things...
1) Underplaying their significance in roleplaying situations (re-read the effects outlined in the book)
2) Not doing alot of roleplaying.
This change (in my opinion) is one of the few (very few) genuine improvements with the new edition. (which, incidently, I'm beginning to regret buying)

In our previous campaign, no-one was foolish enough to take blatant, it just wasn't worth it, almost every mage took gentle. It was easily the most point effective virtue in the game...

Thanks for your response, even though it didn't actually answer any of the questions I posed.

First, for your information, I don't need to re-read the section on the social effects of the gift, but thanks for implying I'm illiterate. The magi in my game already hang in the back, avoid all face-to-face interaction with mundanes, and let the companions do all the talking. Most of the magi would rather spend time in their labs, and when an adventure might take them out of the covenant, they try to get someone else to go, and they use the excuse that they don't want to endanger or inconvenience the group.

Second, there is plenty of role-playing in my game, but thanks for implying my group is a bunch of munchkins. Role-playing can occur in interactions between two magi, between members of the same covenant, and between a magus an individual of the Faerie realm. Role-playing doesn't only occur when a magus talks to a mundane outside of the covenant. If you've read the discussion of the social effects of the Gift, then you know that even when someone with a Blatant Gift accompanies the group, as long as she stays quiet, dresses plainly and doesn't act like the leader, then the group is treated as if they only had a magus with a normal Gift, which isn't terribly restrictive.

I still think The Gentle Gift is too expensive and restricts Jerbiton magi to being second-rate spell casters. Care to address that?

First of all, I apologize if I offended, it wasn't meant as such. The problem I saw was that Gentle Gift was too cheap, and I've seen nothing to counter that. As to weak Jerbiton casters...they should be.

In my opinion, making the ability to excel with mundanes as common as a 1 pt advantage did, made the Jerbiton's place within the order a joke. The strength of Jerbiton is that its magic is in-offensive to mundanes. They've built their entire house around dealing with mundanes, therefore, why play one if you're gonna stay at home?
In a group where the only magi that goes out in the world constantly is the Jerbiton, he by default becomes the most powerful mage in his group in his element. Not to mention that the rules reward players who adventure over those that stay at home.

Again, sorry if I offended, I simply presented the two situations in which I could imagine your argument occuring. I guess different people are in different campaigns and have different styles, having a role-playing light campaign is not necessarily bad, only some people imagine it to be such. And I can't tell you the number of things in various games I've mis-remembered and had to go back and look at, (None of us have perfect memory) so that also wasn't meant as an insult.

I'll try to choose my words with more care in the future, but I'll still always look first to the gentle gift as a character option (as well as not looking twice at blatant...I really don't think its worth taking for a measly 3 pts)

In fact, the only reason my current character doesn't have it is because we do have a Jerbiton and I wanted to let him have his own speciality, variation is good!

I disagree with your basic premise. You state that "making the ability to excel with mundanes as common as a 1 pt advantage did, made the Jerbiton's place within the order a joke. The strength of Jerbiton is that its magic is in-offensive to mundanes."

First, why should House Jerbiton be forced to pay for a Major Virtue when every other house is defined by a Minor Virtue?

House Bonisagus: Puissant Magical Theory or Puissant Intrigue
House Bjornaer: Heartbeast
House Flambeau: Puissant Ignem or Perdo
House Tytalus: Self Confident
House Tremere: Minor Magical Focus (certamen)
etc...All of the houses are "defined" by minor virtues.

Second, House Jerbiton isn't only defined by its Gentle Gift. It's also defined by their willingness to devote time and energy to philosophy, the arts, and mundane society in general. Allowing the magi of other houses to communicate with mundanes doesn't make them specialists anymore than allowing a Tytalus to specialize in Ignem makes him a Flambeau. The ability of any magus to specialize in Ignem doesn't make House Flambeau a joke. Anyone, even a lowly grog, can take Self Confident, does that make House Tytalus a joke? Your basic premise is flawed. If House Jerbiton is be defined by a Major Virtue, then all of the houses should be so defined, not just Jerbiton.

As an aside, your statement that "the rules reward players who adventure over those that stay at home" is no longer accurate. Under fourth edition, that was definitely the case. Under the new rules, however, Adventure Source Quality is only 5-10 and a maximum of 5 Adventure experience points may be used on a single Ability or Art. These totals are significantly lower than other forms of study, and a character may only gain experience from one type of advancement in one season.

Edited 3/2/2005 1:45 am ET by JackdeMolay

For the most part I agree with what you are saying, but I have had a few ideas of my own. I offer them up not as suggestions, but as comparison. There's no way to change the rules-as-written, but I have never been a stickler for someone else's rules.

My core of Players and I have already talked, and I have suggested the quick-fix that "The Gentle Gift" remain a Major Virtue, but not be considered a Major Hermetic Virtue. It is not required of House Jerbiton, but it is certainly of benefit to more Jerbiton than to Magi of other Houses. True, the Magus still uses 3-Virtues that could be used for something to gain more "oomph," but the usefulness of G.G. is determined by how the Character acts in game.

The Blatant Gift likewise will remain a Major Flaw, but the "extra" 3 pt penalty even applies to Magi. Basically, the Blatant Gift is the freak who even makes the other freak's nervous. We have enough inter-party conflict as it is... so taking B.G. would tend to make that Character the primary target of distrust.

The point costs keep both B.G. and G.G. from cropping up everywhere, and the vaguely worded threat of losing the only place where a Magus can have comfortable conversation keeps B.G. from being a gimme for even Lab-rats.

Some Players (and character concepts) wouldn't balk at taking only a 3 pt penalty to talk at Tribunal... but there will always be a Concept that embraces one Virtue/Flaw that others find completely useless.

My concept of Jerbiton (as Storyguide) has always been more Knowledge-centric than Mundane-centric. Basically Jerbiton believe that Art, Music, Theology, "Science" and such are just as important as Magic in the big picture. It's like an Architect working with an Engineer... one sees the beauty of the structure, one sees the beauty of the angles and Technique. Make your own choice who sees what.

//... quick-fix that "The Gentle Gift" remain a Major Virtue, but not be considered a Major Hermetic Virtue.//

This makes indeed a lot of sense.
(1) There are already Gifted people who are not Magi around, and future supplements will bring back hedge magicians who can really benefit from the Gift. To all of these Gentle Gift is an interesting option: so calling it a Hermetic Virtue is at least a misnomer.
(2) As I see it, the limit on one Major Hermetic Virtue is there to control stacking of powerful Virtues in a complex system. I do not see risks, however, if Gentle Gift is stacked with another of the current Major Hermetic Virtues.

//... but the "extra" 3 pt penalty even applies to Magi. Basically, the Blatant Gift is the freak who even makes the other freak's nervous. We have enough inter-party conflict as it is... //

Blatant Gift is already described that way on p.75 (after all, magi are people, too): the full -6 penalty applies also to rolls concerning interaction with other Gifted persons. It is not described that way on p.51, where instead the reference to p.75 is given.

Kind regards,

Berengar

"Blatant Gift is already described that way on p.75 (after all, magi are people, too): the full -6 penalty applies also to rolls concerning interaction with other Gifted persons." Although this is true, page 76 also says that "Parma Magica blocks these effects of The Gift entirely. A maga with a Parma Magica is not bothered by the Gifts of other magi..." It isn't explicit that a Parma Magica will block both the normal Gift and Blatant Gift equally, but it's certainly implied.

I think what Scotsman means is that Parma Magica only counteracts the first -3 of the reaction modifier. Therefore, when a normal magus is talking to another normal magus, both with their Parma Magica active, they will not have any modifiers toward each other. If a magus with the Blatant Gift is interacting with a magus with Parma Magica active, the magus reacts to him at -3. Mundanes, who have no Parma Magica, react to the magus with Blatant Gift at -6.

This would definitely make the Blatant Gift a real disadvantage. If other magi, covenant members, faerie, etc... react negatively to a magus with Blantant Gift it would be worth a Major Flaw.

//I think what Scotsman means is that Parma Magica only counteracts the first -3 of the reaction modifier.//
Scotsman185 is indeed - and not only here - rather unclear about what he really means. This may be related to(http://forums.delphiforums.com/atlasgames/messages?msg=532.7): //I'm a writer. :-/ //. So you may well be right with your interpretation.

But note also, that magi cannot always protect themselves from being affected by the Gift of a sodalis: they have to lower their Parma by concentration if they wish to receive a healing or longevity ritual, or another needed spell. They also will at sunrise and sunset have to reestablish their Parma, and might loathe to do it in the presence of an individual with Blatant Gift which they do not know very well.

Also the strong reactions of medieval mundanes - who trust strangers mainly at their own risk, and usually cannot turn to some authority for relief if their trust proves unfounded - to individuals with the Blatant Gift, who in all ArM versions immediately stood out as strange and disturbing, should not be downplayed.

Kind regards,

Berengar