I was updating a spreadsheet today, and decided hey wouldn't it be neat if I put in the base level and modifications of each spell, and used them to calculate the level....

So I started at Creo Animal. Worked great for a few, but ran into a snag at Curse of the Ravenous Swarm. The formula did not work. So I checked the errata, nothing there.
Curse of the Ravenous Swarm is listed at level 45, and the listed calculation matches. So what is the problem. The problem is that group is listed as +1 in this instance, not +2 as it is defined, and elsewhere used.

Question: Is the level correct?
Is the calculation incorrect?

Thanks,
Ed

Another Issue I just found:
Shiver of the Lycanthrope has a Target of touch, and no such target is defined.
Again, no erratta.

I assume, the correct target is individual...

Could anyone clarify?

Thanks,

Ed

Never mind the range, I just found the sense ranges.

Ed

Ok,
Here is an interesting one... I think I know the answer, because the math works out. I thought I should point it out though.

Tangle of Wood and Thorns (p.138) does not list the Muto requisite in the normal Requisites location, but does in the calculation. The calculation works, so I assume the Requisite is just missing.

This was not in the errata, but should be...

Just as a note, after going through animal, aquam, auram, corpus, and herbam, I have only found two items that were not in the errata. Good job!

Ed

The spell is already a ritual, so correcting the level to 50 would not fundamentally alter its purpose. I agree, that the level is miscalculated. The only option I see that would permit it to remain at Level 45 would be to lower the Size modifer to +1. Then you would have a swarm equal to the weight of 100 pigs rather than 1000. I'm not porcus expert, but that still sounds like a lot of bugs.

As for Tangle of Wood and Thorns , the missing Muto requisite just seems like a omission.

//Several other spells I have found confuse me, especially with the magical sense rules, and target part. Now that these rules have been introduced, I feel that they should be used. And I feel they become almost mute.//

The Sense Targets I feel were one of the coolest additions to the Ars Magica system. They do take bit of getting used to, but once you have a grasp of the fundamentals, it is easy to see when they should be applied and when not.

First off, they only apply to Intellego spells. That's simple enough. From there, it is really a matter of determining what/who the affect of the spell is actually targeting. This is where some people get confused between Target: Touch and Range: Touch, or Target: Vision and Range: Sight. This is best explained through example:

Take Shiver of the Lycanthrope (InAn 10). It is a magical sense spell with Target: Touch. The range is Personal, so the magus is casting it upon himself. Once cast, the magus can detect whether someone is a werebeast merely by touching them. He can touch as many people as he likes, so long as he continues to concentrate on the spell.

By comparison, the ArM4 version is Range: Touch, Target: Individual. This means the magus must cast the spell *ON* the suspected lycanthrope, and must touch it in the process. Once cast, the magus knows whether that one specific individual is a lycanthrope (assuming penetration succeeded). To detect other lycanthropes, the magus must cast the spell over and over at each target, touching each one in turn.

Note, there is no reason the ArM4 version would not work in ArM5. It is simpy less efficient.

Interestingly, the rules on ArM5 page 114 imply it is possible to give magical senses to others, but this requires Muto Mentem magic with Intellego requisites. It doesn't elaborate further or provide guidelines, unfortunately, and none of the spells provided in the spell list makes use of this feature, as they are all set to Personal range.

Things have progressed well to date, got to Mentem with no further issues.

But I have found the following:
Enslave the Mortal Mind is listed at level 40 with the calculation as follows (Base 30, +1 Eye, +1 Sun).
The problem is Sun is +2, which makes it level 45.

Ed

Not bad, most of the way through terram, and just found another.
The Duration of The Earth Split Asunder is listed as Spec, but should be Mom (according to the calculation at the end).

Ed

Hermes Portal is now year???????
That is annoying!

Ed

Enslave the Mortal Mind seems to be a miscalculation. Looks like it should be Level 45.

The Earth Split Asunder, however, I believe is calculated correctly at Level 30, just misrepresented in the formula indicated. The spell is not truly Momentary, as the effect lasts over a course of three rounds. The closest Duration to that would be Concentration, which is +1. This is technically the same thing that was done with Wind At The Back (ReAu 5), which is listed at Sun duration, and the notes specifically indicate it is the closest duration to the special effect.

Although to my knowledge 5th Edition doesn't specifically mention it, ArM4 states:

(Chaning Ranges, Durations, and Targets, pg. 105)
"The categories described here were built into the structure of Hermetic magic by Bonisagus. All spontaneous spells must conform to these requirements <snip>. Formulaic spells, on the other hand, can be invented with ranges, durations, or targets that are not listed here. This is usually slightly more difficult than if the closest category were used, but is largely left to storyguide interpretation."

You have to decide for yourself whether this carries over into 5th Edition, but it seems that some of the 5th Ed. spells do set a precedent for it.

Good point.
Though there still should be a note about that somewhere..
i.e. in the errata.

Ed

I think I am considering the D:Year a typo and changing it to D:Mom. The problem with this is that it violates the general durations rules.

The use of 30 pawns of vis (15 on each side) is a high cost. To have to use this every year makes the spell basically useless.

So do you add a Creo requisite or change to Creo and add a Rego requisite (my favorite). Then, at least if it is CrReTe, you can make it permanent and you get a fancy stone thingy around the portal for free!!!

Are you going to post this spreadsheet after it is complete? I am believing that a number of people would love to have a copy (rubs his greedy paws together in anticipation).

//I think I am considering the D:Year a typo and changing it to D:Mom. The problem with this is that it violates the general durations rules.//

Yes, it violates the general duration rules, but it also opens the precedent for any magical effect to be made permanent simply with a Creo requisite and vis expenditure.

//The use of 30 pawns of vis (15 on each side) is a high cost. To have to use this every year makes the spell basically useless. //

Yes, it is. I believe its expense, however, adds to its flavor. I hardly consider it a useless spell, but it definitely prevents a Hermetic mass-transit system from being established.

I always preferred the way 3rd Edition did it (if I recall correctly)whereas each time you used it you had to pay a vis cost to activate it.

If the Hermes Portal is an important concept for you to maintain in your saga, there are several alternatives for it:

1) Based on my previous post, you could use a non-standard Duration such as Decade or Century. This would alter the spell level even higher, but would give a longer duration.

2) Simply give it a duration of Special, keep it at its current level, and rule that it incorporates [non-Hemermetic, Mercurian, whatever] concepts, but has an essentially permanent duration.

3) Leave the spell as is, but allow for an alternative version that is an enchanted device. This might cost more vis to make, but would have more flavor as an actual enchanted gate, rather than a simple spellcasting.

Ok, that finishes the level calculations, now I need to go through and see what notes I need to add for each spell.
I have emailed for permission to post it up when I am done editing.

Ed

I spoke with the troupe about this today and we decided that Creo Terram with a Rego requisite is the way to go. We all sort of like the Hermetic mass transit system (it fits in with our style of play) but could see how it might upset the balance in other sagas.

I too liked the "pay as you went" system of ArM 3, but am not going to go back to that.

"I spoke with the troupe about this today and we decided that Creo Terram with a Rego requisite is the way to go. We all sort of like the Hermetic mass transit system (it fits in with our style of play) but could see how it might upset the balance in other sagas."

I like the idea of making it an item rather than a spell, that way you don't have to mess with the rules.

From what I can tell, the spell is only a ritual *because* it has a Year duration. Teleportation itself does not require ritual magic, so it can be done with lesser Durations.

As an enchanted device, you could do it either as a constant effect (Sun, 2x uses, environmental trigger), or perhaps as a concentration device (Concentration, ?? uses, device maintains concentration).

The only aspect of the spell that couldn't really be duplicated is the simultaneous casting aspect. As an enchanted device, I would rule that both gates have to be crafted together (perhaps out of the same piece of stone, hence the AC), and then one or both have to be moved into their "permanent" position.

Good point about the year duration causing the spell to be a ritual.

A problem that I forsee, however, is that it is a Mercurain ritual (like the Aegis) and I am not sure you can reduce the duration and make a magic item out of it. Notice at the bottom of the spell listing that there are no "add the spell totals up" stuff.

it looks to be similar to the ReCo series of "instant transport" spells except:

* it covers all substance (which is fair for Terram - look at Unseen Porter etc - Terram is the all-purpose mover)
* it's cast on a portal rather than on the people or objects which go through
* it has an extended duration.

You can build a similar spell with ReCo + requisites, but it acts for an instant, targets the people or things which move, and then ends (no point in extending the duration - it would just keep transporting them to the same place over and over...).

So the odd Mercurian elements are: the spell makes a portal, a gateway, which can be used over and over again, and its target is the gateway but it then affects those who walk into the gateway (and moves them).

When you look beyond that to the scope of the game, you have to ask: "what about the Redcaps". Aren't they supposed to be carrying messages...? So perhaps out-of-character, the limits on Hermes Portal spells are there to bolster the Redcap system, make it so that most magi don't set up instant Gates between favoured locations.
Also, travel time is one of the limits on activities of magi and others in Mythic Europe... if instant travel is freely available, you spoil parts of the game. This way, you can still have instant travel, but there's a different cost levied.

In my own saga, starting way back when 4e was new, we always kept HP very limited. We used to rationalize it as magi not wanting to have open portals into their own neighbourhood - that they preferred HP to be located some distance off, and certainly not within the aegis, so that the Aegis remained inviolate. Then you got the secondary problem of defending the HP itself, and most considered it not worth the effort!
Sanctuary Of Ice has material about a redcap network in a wealthy and long-established Tribunal, which confirms some of the view - that HP are expensive, hard to defend and something of a liability, while also being highly valuable in other ways.

I don't really have much in way of a reply, except that I am trying to work out how I can get this mass transit system working. Again, I can see where this transit system may not fit into many sagas, but my troupe likes this stuff and I am just trying to get it all worked out.

As a player in a previous saga, the prime covenants of each tribunal had a HP that took you to the underground in Rome, where a circle of portals were found, allowing transport between these major convenants. Not for all sagas, I agree, but to me, way cool.

if you want a mass-transit system, adapt the existing Ritual spell - don't use it as an annual Ritual spell, but instead allow creation of an Enchanted Device, with N-uses per day (unlimited if you can manage it).

Use a device effect devised by starting from the HP ritual, drop 4 magnitudes from Year to Momentary, and use that as the device effect level.
Rule that this effect, enchanted into a device, forms a portal which opens on demand, rather than a spell-effect which acts on those who approach (trigger) the device.

It won't be canon, which appears to want to restrict mass-transit -- but hey, if it's what you want in your saga!

Status:
Notes are complete.
Have to run final credits information past the original author, will email that tonight.
Then need to post it up somewhere...

Ed

Seems like doing this as an item should be much simpler, I just can't remember if arcane connection is an available range to put into an item effect.
Open intangible tunnel lvl ?
Move stuff effect lvl ?

Should be much less than the 75 for hermes portal.

Ed

//A problem that I forsee, however, is that it is a Mercurain ritual (like the Aegis) and I am not sure you can reduce the duration and make a magic item out of it. Notice at the bottom of the spell listing that there are no "add the spell totals up" stuff.//

Granted. But I am not advocating changing the spell. I belive it should be implemented as is. In my saga, I wouldn't allow a magus to make an enchanted item with that effect, either.

But you have already stated your intention to alter the rules to accomodate a "saga-friendly" version of the spell. This was just one of several options offered to you to help in that regard. I still believe that this method (or simply giving the spell an arbitrary Duration of Special) is preferrable to making it a Momentary Creo ritual. That route defies the entire principle 5th Ed. has adopted in regards to making things permanent. No Creo ritual has the ability to make a magical effect permanent. They only make mundane effects permanent.

You are correct (now that I have my book in front of me).
Also I note the Rego Terram guidelines are really sparse in general moving of object guidelines.
However, taking a look at Corpus:
Transporting a target instantly up to 5 paces is base 10. I'm not sure that is enough, so...
Transporting a target instantly up to 50 paces is base 15.

So:
Opening the intangible tunnel: ReVi Level 35
(Portal maintains concentration (just long enough to move stuff through) +5, unlimited uses +10)

Moving the mass of objects: ReTe Level 35
R:Voice, D:Mom, T:Group
(Base 15, +2 Voice, +2 Group)
(unlimited uses +10, linked to open tunnel +3)

20 pawns of vis needed to enchant.
Pair of full sized stone doors, made from the same cut of hard stone
20 pawns to open.
hmmm.
Nice match, and fits within standard Hermetic Theory...

Ed

Edited 3/30/2005 10:15 pm ET by Ed9C

Unfortunatly, that item would allow a portal to something no more than 50 paces away... However, It would allow a two-way portal...;) Opening the intangible tunnel only collapses range from arcane connection to touch, it doesn't really reduce the distance - you can't walk through it...

Instead:

Leap of homecoming (lvl 35), add range touch (+5), unlimited uses (+10)
This would be a ReCo effect (add requisites if you want to send something else)

Enchant into a archway and there you go...
This only requires 5 vis for the effect, and could be made as a minor item by an arch-wizard... And the lab-text would allow this to spread all over the order...

//Unfortunatly, that item would allow a portal to something no more than 50 paces away... However, It would allow a two-way portal...;) Opening the intangible tunnel only collapses range from arcane connection to touch, it doesn't really reduce the distance - you can't walk through it...//

I think you misunderstand:
Opening the intangible tunnel is a general Rego Vim (p. 162) spell to allow casting of a spell between two locations joined by an arcane connection.

I may be misusing it a bit here, but basically, the tunnel spell goes off, allowing the portal on one side to treat the other side as if there is no intervening space, thus allowing a short (50') move object(s) to fire off and move objects from space on one side, to space on the other.
There is no physical tunnel openned.

Sorry, I think I might have been somewhat unclear...

The ReCo effect you mentioned allows you to move an person 50 paces. You do so in an unnatural way (teleporting), but it is no different than if the person walked the distance himself.

And as you said:
//There is no physical tunnel openned.//

You could (if your spell has range of touch or more) cast the spell through the portal, and thus moving someone on the other side.

Enchant a pair of items that work 1X per day and lower the duration to momentary.

Enchanted devices can not normally mimic the effect of ritual spells. However, magic items can have effects that are higher than level 50 if there is no reason that they need to be rituals other than their level.

"Enchanted devices can not normally mimic the effect of ritual spells. However, magic items can have effects that are higher than level 50 if there is no reason that they need to be rituals other than their level."

- And, as mentioned earlier in the thread, this is a ritual because it is a Mercurian ritual... Bit tricky to but into items, those...

//Hermes Portal is now year???????
That is annoying!//

You said it. 30 pawns per year.