I was considering making a magic weapon (2 handed sword or Mallok).

Start Material and Size
Iron (base metal) 5
Large x4
--------
20 pawns to open for enchantment.

Spell effect will be a Perdo - Vim effect from the general guidelines
that being --
Dispell any magical effect with a casting (or effect for magic items)
total less than half the (lvl +4 Magnitudes) of the Vim spell
(or effect if in an item)+ a strss die (no botch) (ars v5 page 160)

The lvl placed in the item would be somewhat high (absurd by some)
or a 100 lvl effect. (sorta wacky but looking for info on possability)

That would make it have the ability to dispell and magical effect
based on the following formula -
(100 effect +20 /2) or 59 plus stress (no botch)..

The effect would act against and spell that is struck by or strikes the blade.

There is no penatration added as I think the effect negates magical
effects it does not need to penatrate and magic resistance
(from spells or parma) from spells it negates.

Total cost in vis is
20 to open
11 (10 for spell and 1 for unlimited)
total modified is 100 for spell + 10 unlimited = 110

or 31 Vis.
I call this sword or Mallok (Soulsword or SoulMallok)

Now let all hell break loose (go on baby ya know ya want to) ;-)

Thrumbar1

The sword would probably never get made, at least by a mage. The only person who's going to be enchanting something with a level 100 effect is going to be a very powerful mage, and unless he's making it for himself to use as a talisman he most likely wouldn't be making an item whose main purpose would be to cancel any powerful spell that he might cast. If he's enchanting a level 100 spell effect into the item, he could probably invent the level 100 spell for him to use himself instead, master it with several specialties (including fast casting) and not let a nasty sword get into the hands of a noble.

Now, if it were forged by Heaven or Hell to take care of pesky mages......

"If he's enchanting a level 100 spell effect into the item, he could probably invent the level 100 spell for him to use himself instead, master it with several specialties (including fast casting)"

It's true that if he could create the sword he could most likely create an equivelent spell (baring a magical focus in enchanted swords or some such). However he might not be able to relyably cast the spell.

The lab total will include the aura of the enchanter's sanctum. The caster's magic theory score (which has to be at least ten in order to make the object at all), material and shape bonuses, and quite possibly the huge bonuses for having assistance in the lab (such as an apprentice), verditious runes (for verditious), Craft score (for Verditius,) and a bounus for lab quality (for which rules haven't yet been published for fifth but I'd wager many games are still useing some varient of WGRE rules or had covenants created under previous rule sets that had lab bonuses in them.)

None of these factors will be included in the spell casting total. In an _ideal_ situation they _could_ make a difference of more than forty points. This difference could encourage our older magus to make the item rather than the spell.

Also what an older magus may fear more than anything is a twilight episode. By using an enchanted device the magus eliminates the possiblity of a twilight episode brought on by miscasting.

I am not absolutely sure on this but without penetration I don't see why this would have any affect on parma magica. Parma isn't a spell, and so far as I am aware is not subject to being dispelled. Someone with access to the rules can confirm this one way or another. If parma could be dispelled it would be pretty much of no value so I don't think it can be.

The other point is cosmetic, why would you call this a soulsword? It has nothing to do with souls in the slightest. Calling it "Spellbreaker" would make sense to me. If it had a PeMe effect then yes it could be named "Souldrinker"...or "Soulsword."

Also I really don't see too many mages haveing a lab total high enough to make this thing...125 lab total is the minimum you would need. That would require 50's in both Pe and Vim. And I am not sure that mages under AM5 would get that high. That assumes you can get +25 to your lab total from various other things. And a mage old enough to make it is also not likely to be in the sort of shape that is required to swing a two-handed sword.

General question what on earth is a Mallok? Mattok I am familier with, though it isn't a sword but I have never in my life heard of a Mallok.

Basicly this is a sword of mundane silence - that is a sword that emulates the wind of mundane silence spell. You've reduced the effect from room to ind, but you must still penetrate the magic resistance of whatever you wish to strike. (See wind of mundane silence). Also remember that unless you penetrate MR, you're not going to be able to strike a magus (as the sword tries to affect the magus' parma, and is resisted).

In any event, this would be far better as a non-hermetic item. I remember seeing something like this in a earlier edition, that simply ignored any MR and dispelled all magic it struck... It made it a very powerful artifact, but also something any magus in his right mind should fear...

I am not at all sure why any mage would fear this. Frankly pilum of fire is targeted on the person wielding the sword not the sword so what good does the sword do you? Same with lightening bolt. Or frankly my mage would just run the person through with an absolutely mundane sword. Or do a CrHe spell to wrap the person in vines...or a CrAu spell to lift him into the air (please oh please break the spell). The options are limited only by your imagination. Lifting a boulder over this persons head with a ReTe spell and then letting it drop? Have plants reach out grab his feet and jerk them out from under him? For that matter what about any Corpus spell...and most of them are outright lethal. Or Call to slumber or...the list is endless. The person trusting this sword to protect him against a mage would be the greatest fool the world has ever seen.

An object that breaks spells is useful, a sword that does so especially a two handed one is not terribly so. If you are an older mage having a staff that does this makes sense or a wand but beyond that I see no utility in having it made into a weapon. Especially one that doesn't seem to have much chance to penetrate parma.

Just my view of course but frankly I could well imagine far better things to do with 5+ seasons and 30+ pawns of vis.

"I am not absolutely sure on this but without penetration I don't see why this would have any affect on parma magica. Parma isn't a spell, and so far as I am aware is not subject to being dispelled. Someone with access to the rules can confirm this one way or another. If parma could be dispelled it would be pretty much of no value so I don't think it can be."

Wind of Mundane Silence can take down a parma but it needs to penetrate magic resistance in order to do so. Also with wind of mundane silence the level of the spell would need to be ten times to the level of the parma (ie a level 20 spell will destroy a level 2 parma if it penetrates). Using a spell with target individual makes this a little eaisier and arguably a specially designed parma ripper spell would be able to take down a parma if it's effective level is five times the parma score. Even so, it would take a dedicated perdo vim expert to have a chance at removing a level 5 parma magica and level 6 parma would take incredible scores.

"Also I really don't see too many mages haveing a lab total high enough to make this thing...125 lab total is the minimum you would need. That would require 50's in both Pe and Vim. "

intelegence +2 to +5
Magic theory 15
Specilzation in Magic theory 1
Aura 5
form and effect bonus 8 (you could find a way)
Lab bonus 3
affinity with magic theory 2
verditius runes 15
verditius craft score 6
int+ theory of familiar 7
int + theory of apprentice 8
int + theory of fellow magus who you've bribed to help you +10
inventive geneous +3
afinity in one/two of the arts +3/+6
applicable magical focus > +40
cyclic magic +3
Crazy story bonus because the character did something +5

There are probably others that I'm forgetting. While I can't imagine that any character could rake in all of these bonuses I do believe that for a magus more than 80 years out of apprenticship you might be able to rake in 30-35 points outside of their art scores. I also believe that scores of more than forty are possible (especially if the magus has an affinity).

Not that I disagree with you completely, you just said "I'n not sure that this is possible". While it is my opinion that for the right 130+ year old magus this is possible but darn hard.

((I was refering to the non-hermetic one with a good penetration rating... Imagine a item that dispells the aegis as soon as it arrives in the covenant.... That cuts through parma like butter... could be a rather nasty item...))

All this is true. I am not saying a "spellbreaker" item is not useful, I am saying that having it a sword is rather less useful then say a wand for example.

But still anyone relying on it (assuming they had no inate MR) would be dead within seconds of a mage realising what he or she was facing. It is of no protection to the user whatsoever. How he or she ends up dead is dependant on what sort of mage they are facing. I admit that I could be wrong but the person who is proposing this seems to be intending it as a mage killing weapon. And as that it is a total flop, and if it isn't intended as a mage killing weapon then why make it something like a two handed sword?

The original item would probably be from clasic times - a variant on the sword that cut the Gordian knot. It would be useful to a warrior to fight magic - and it would be far better than say a wand - after all - this weapon allows you to parry spells!

Offcourse, it all depends on how this item is used in the campain. If it is suggested as an PC created item, then I would wonder why? If it is an item created by a 13th century hermetic magus, then again I wonder why he'd bother?

If on the other hand, it is a relic from clasical times, made using different techniques (non-hermetic), then it could be intresting.
Even better perhaps for the item to be non-magical (belonging to any other realm).

((While it is my opinion that for the right 130+ year old magus this is possible but darn hard.))

I agree with you fully.

I will have to look at wind of mundane silence again it seems.

"But still anyone relying on it (assuming they had no inate MR) would be dead within seconds of a mage realising what he or she was facing. It is of no protection to the user whatsoever. How he or she ends up dead is dependant on what sort of mage they are facing. I admit that I could be wrong but the person who is proposing this seems to be intending it as a mage killing weapon. And as that it is a total flop, and if it isn't intended as a mage killing weapon then why make it something like a two handed sword?"

Thinking along these lines;

I don't have a fifth edition book here to take a crack at an appropriate level but I'd imagine an item that could do something akin to a fast cast perdo vim counter spell (we'd have to fiddle with the rules a bit to get an item to simulate fast cast speed) might be a better choice than a "blade of mundane silence" to achieve the effect of "parrying spells".

I think that you'd want the sword to cast perdo vim magic rather than perminantly be enchanted with a perdo vim effect for the sake of bypassing parma. (But as we've seen on these boards there are many different ways that story guides handle parma. You'd be wise to check or decide how you're going to handle parma before sweating the details of the spellbane sword.)

"I don't have a fifth edition book here to take a crack at an appropriate level but I'd imagine an item that could do something akin to a fast cast perdo vim counter spell (we'd have to fiddle with the rules a bit to get an item to simulate fast cast speed) might be a better choice than a "blade of mundane silence" to achieve the effect of "parrying spells".

I think that you'd want the sword to cast perdo vim magic rather than perminantly be enchanted with a perdo vim effect for the sake of bypassing parma. (But as we've seen on these boards there are many different ways that story guides handle parma. You'd be wise to check or decide how you're going to handle parma before sweating the details of the spellbane sword.)"

I can only agree with you. For me a device to break spells (wand or chain or whatever) is useful to a mage, more so if it rather easy to conceal. A weapon that is so limited in how it works really will not protect the mundane wielder from even a low level mage since I can come up with a dozen or more ways to kill the user that the sword would be no help with and I am not trying hard.

The most useful thing I can see is a sword which grants a high MR but from what the SG said (though I have not checked) is that is no longer possible in AM5. And it has the problem that parma would stop it...the reason my mage just uses a mundane blade (which also cuts through parma like butter).

Spells that protect against a particular sort of magic are still viable. You might make and sword that casts a ward against corpus magic, a ward against mentem magic, a ward against terram magic and a ward against ignem.

This item might befuddle two thirds of the magi who face it for at least a few rounds, and if the item targets the weilder for these effects and the story guide adjudicates magic items in the same way that I do, then parma won't affect it. Of course it's not really a sword themed item.

I think a sword that has a blade specifically enchanted to dispel parmas would be a great item for a hoplite. Sure, the blade would be stopped by a sufficiently strong parma magica but it would cut right through an insufficiently strong one.

If the *purpose* of the sword is to dispel magical enchantments and to blow away a Parma to then allow alternative attacks to affect a magus, then, with sufficiently high level, the sword could do this with a Penetration of 0.

However, if the *purpose* of the sword is to strike a magus and the enchantment serves to prevent magic from deflecting, destroying, or altering it (etc.), then I believe it would still need some degree of Penetration to be effective. As I understand it, even if the Parma is blown away, the magus would still have some Magic Resistance from his Form scores, and even a MR score of 0 still defeats anything without a Penetration of at least 1.

"I think a sword that has a blade specifically enchanted to dispel parmas would be a great item for a hoplite. Sure, the blade would be stopped by a sufficiently strong parma magica but it would cut right through an insufficiently strong one."

But at the end of the day a mundane blade cuts through parma like butter too...Parma protects against magic so just don't use magic and parma or lack of parma just doesn't matter anymore.

I can make a weapon with an awesome penetration, dispelling abilites but at a huge time and vis cost to do the same thing a sword bought from the local smith can do. Does it really make sense to expend the time and vis?

Again a spell breaking item is worthwhile, that is not what I am argueing about...just the utility of a weapon as described here. As a good joke consider what happens if the wielder is hit with a "lungs of watery death" spell. He would either drown or else have to run the blade through his lungs to dispell the spell. Some choice!

A few things, a mundane silence sword would need to have penetration to take down a magus parma.

"But at the end of the day a mundane blade cuts through parma like butter too...Parma protects against magic so just don't use magic and parma or lack of parma just doesn't matter anymore.

I can make a weapon with an awesome penetration, dispelling abilities but at a huge time and vis cost to do the same thing a sword bought from the local smith can do. Does it really make sense to expend the time and vis?"

I mentioned that the parma blade would be a good weapon for "a hoplite" in other words someone who could follow up their "sword strike" with clenching grasp of the crushed heart or multicast PoF's.

Moving a sword to touch a target (or even tap a talisman) is significantly easier than trying to hurt them with it. Using an actual weapon to do the killing has some disadvantages when it comes to gift of the bear's fortitude and wards against metal.

"Again a spell breaking item is worthwhile, that is not what I am arguing about...just the utility of a weapon as described here"

Which is why I'm proposing weapons (like the counter-spell sword and the parma ripper sword) that could be more useful while still adhering to the spell breaker weapon theme.

Ah ok...yes for a mage this is a horse of a different color. Sorry I didn't know what you meant by hopolite...just thought you meant heavily armoured soldier!

Yes a weapon that takes a mages parma or MR out would be most effective in a wizards war. Though I am not sure quite how this would work since I am not clear if your parma would spread over the blade and be itself canceled...frankly I suspect that would in the end depend on a SG call. Your suggestions make more sense then the proposed weapon at least to me.

I don't agree taping someone with a sword is any easier than hitting them with it...and after fencing for five years I think I do know what I am talking about. If the person is actively defending your chance of tapping is less than your chance of hitting. That is why I was opposed to making this a weapon...when someone comes at you with a sword you rather naturally tend to think about not being hit by it...a wand held up someone sleave or a stone in the hand etc is just easier to surprise someone with...two handed swords being err hmmm even more obvious if you know what I mean.

"Ah ok...yes for a mage this is a horse of a different color. Sorry I didn't know what you meant by hopolite...just thought you meant heavily armoured soldier!"

Oh yeah, that is what the word "hopolite" means in the real world isn't it? I should have been more clear.

Magi who because of their inclination, ability and history of service are frequently called upon by the Quaesitors to enforce wizards marches and the like are called hopolites in the the setting.

"Though I am not sure quite how this would work since I am not clear if your parma would spread over the blade and be itself canceled...frankly I suspect that would in the end depend on a SG call."

hadn't thought of that. There is the specific mention that a talisman is covered by parma you could infer from this that oter large hand held items are not. But you whouldn't have to. It is an SG call.

"I don't agree taping someone with a sword is any easier than hitting them with it...and after fencing for five years I think I do know what I am talking about. If the person is actively defending your chance of tapping is less than your chance of hitting."

I will defer to your greater experience, of course if the target doesn't have a parrying weapon or is parrying with something covered by parma things change.