Magic Missile came up in a discussion in our group last time we were playing...its hard to do in AM. My suggestion is that it is a CrHe(Re) spell which creates an actual crossbow bolt and then fires it (the Regio bit)...mastery would allow multiple bolts so in the end it is very similier to the spell but slightly different.

Stinking cloud exists in at least 2 Auraum spells I believe. Creating a spell that creates poisonous air is already in Auraum.

Familier Pocket I am not familier with (pardon the pun) so can't say.

Regenerate well exists and doesn't exist. You can't heal the wound without using Vis and you can heal a person completely or one wound at a time depending on your CrCo total and what spells you know. But the critical point is that without Vis to make it permanent the wound reappears when the spell duration ends (normal duration is sun). I have not checked carefully in AM5 what has changed as I don't have any healing spells myself but that is what you need to do in AM4 (adding in vis that is).

Basically so long as you understand the hermetic limits what a mage can do is largely limited by the imagination of the player (and obviously the values of arts and techniques). Unlike D&D where there is a fixed number of spells there is no problem with new spell creation in AM (it is always going on) or getting any particular affect you might wish. There is more often then not several different ways to accomplish the task.

The hemetic limits are one constraint and the other is that some things simply don't exist. "Magical Damage" for one...that is why Magic Missile fails. But you could go with the physical bolts...or bolts of fire...or have the missiles be a cosmetic effect to a PeCo spell...or well I am sure the others could add to the list.

It is important to realize that a mage is not limited in casting ability like a D&D wizard. There is no "spell slots" you can cast a formulistic spell as many times a day as you wish. You risk a botch with each casting but there is no limitation on your casting it. You can spont cast spells that are of a level <(score+die roll)/5 again as often as you may wish baring botches. Otherwise you need to fatigue yourself but if you can rest for 2 min then you can cast again.

Formulistic spells often get made because a mage finds him(her)self doing the same sponted spell often and for the same casting total you can get better results from a formulaistic spell then from a sponted one (greater duration, range, or target). So mages make low level formulistic spells that are in the category "generally useful"...things like making clothes waterproof, calling up a fog, making a rope, sharpening a sword, etc.

Formulistic spells also get made because you can't spont an effect you want since you need to divide the casting total by 2. That means for a moderately powerful effect (level 20-25) you need a casting total in the 50s which is very high. But even a mage fresh from the guantlet can get a casting total in the 20's for the area of expretise the mage is specialized in.

That is another difference. There are 5 techniques, and 10 Arts. Mages vary significantly in which ones they are good at. My mage is a creo-regio-auraum specialist with dabblings in mentam and aquam. Other mages do other things. So a group of mages is quite powerful just because they can cover more techniques and arts.

But...the Order does not want its existance to become general knowledge so mages can't go around doing many of the things they can infact do. This means at times there is a magical solution but a more mundane must be used...hence the need for companions.

And lastly but certainly not least how you get experience is very different then in D&D. One does not slay orcs etc for experience. Either you get experience for doing things like reading a book, working in the laboratory or training or even just living OR you are on an adventure and you gain experience for that. And that experience is for the adventure not for killing things...which in many adventures you may not even do.

What a mage can do in the end is limited by the players imagination, the limits of hermetic magic, the characters scores in arts and techniques and what the story guide will allow. This means pick another game with magic and in all likelyhood you can reproduce the spells to a greater or lesser degree in AM.

the magus would implode in a cloud of green smoke...

serously, you still haven't got the hang of ArM discussion: you should be thinking "what can I make using the spell construction methods: guidelines and RDT" or "how can I make a spell which has this effect".

Quoting spell names from DND is not a practical way to discuss ArM.
For a start, it's far from certain what is even *meant* by the names you quote, once translated into ArM. What did you mean? Did others here reading the name think of the same effects as you?

From what I recall of distant history, the thing named "Magic Missile" in DND has a number of odd properties which make a major mismatch to the ArM scheme of things. You could create any number of ArM spells which matched "some" aspects of DND: PeCo damage, CrIg fire,... none match MM...

As for the other spells... 2 have names which suggest something which ArM could do - but who knows (or even cares?) what the pocket spell might be?

"What might happen if a magus invented a spell for X"... not much more than any other spell? Why are DND spells special? (Other than being combat oriented in the most part). There is no reason to suppose *anything* speical would follow as a consequence...

In the end, what is the point of bringing in DND?

"sorry,I tend to think in terms of dnd most of the time."

But beyond being an RPG Ars Magica has no similarities with Dungeons and Dragons. The premsise of the game is totally different, the mechanics are totally different, there are no "classes" in ArM beyond the broad ones of Mage, companion and grog and those really don't quite compare to the classes of D&D, experience is handled in a totally different manner, stories are vastly different, "treasure" is vastly different.

You could compare Ars Magica with Fading Suns or (I would guess not having played them) the White Wolf games (Vampire, etc) but well not with D&D. Having played/DMed D&D and having played ArM frankly they are simply totally unrelated games there is no point in even bringing up D&D in an ArM discussion. That is why I was pointing out the differences between the systems. *sigh* And I am not bashing D&D (3.5e and I get a long quite well) but they are totally, and utterly unrelated games (pardon me for repeating myself).

It would be a good idea for you to look in the two convenent projects that I think can still be found on the website, not quite sure where. In there you will get a view on how mages develop, what sorts of spells players make and what sorts of items player mages make. It isn't the same thing as playing the game but it will give you a much better idea of what can be done under the system as it was in AM4.

I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to "translate" between D&D and Ars -- although in some ways it's nonsensical, in other ways the exercise makes you more aware of the depth of difference between the two.

For example, the spell structure of D&D/D20 is in certain respects very limiting (spell slots, spells per day, spell levels, etc.). However, those very limitations mean a certain kind of freedom -- each spell can sort of live in its own universe, by its own magical laws. Ars Magica, on the other hand, in creating a magic system that is designed to accomodate a practically infinite range of effects, which need to be defined and quantified on the fly, defines various structures and strictures into which magical effects need to be pigeonholed.

In D&D you can define a spell of instant death -- like Power Word: Kill. You don't need any deeper rationale: cast the spell, victim makes or fails a save, victim lives or dies.

The nature of Ars Magica means that this spell description is inadequate. HOW is the death achieved? One spell might kill instantly by turning the heart into a jelly sandwich (MuCo(He)); another by simply destroying vital organs (PeCo); still another by suddenly filling the victim's lungs with water (CrAq) or even sand (CrTe). Besides enriching the game with details ("The archmage points, and the evil baron's eyes grow wide...he topples, and out of his mouth dribbles a stream of sand... 'Looks like his hourglass has run out,' comments grog sargeant, with little mirth in his voice..."), these choices have rules consequences, such as determining which of the wizard's arts are employed and how well some targets may be able to resist the effects.

-John Nephew
President, Atlas Games

"I don't think there's anything wrong with trying to "translate" between D&D and Ars -- although in some ways it's nonsensical, in other ways the exercise makes you more aware of the depth of difference between the two."

I don't see a problem with stealing a spell from another game or book or movie, assuming you can get it to work in Ars Magica. What I don't see much point in is to be comparing Ars Magica to Dungeons and Dragons. The only thing they have in common is that they are fantasy role playing games, beyond that it is like comparing roast beef to raspberry sobert, both of which are foods but you are going to appreciate both for different reasons and in different ways. And as I said D&D 3.5e and I get along fine so this is not bashing D&D in anyway.

My main point though was to simply get Abrahamray to start to understand the system a bit better, and to try and head off the irritation factor I see showing up in responses. As I said elsewhere he does seem to have a lively interest in the game...and it would be a shame to have that lost because he asks questions in ignorance that will eventuall wear on people...something I have seen happen on another list I am active in. Eventually people get tired of explaining basic rules over and over again or making comments like "if you actually played the game."

The arguements over the rules are bad enough...will parma stop swords with pink dots on them or not?? Ask three different SGs and get 6 different answers.

And by the way thanks for a great past two years playing Ars, which even struggling through a language barrier have been very enjoyable. 5th edition though initially I was a bit dubious does look to be a signficant improvement.

There are several common elements in D&D spells that don't fit comfortably into Hermetic magic.

Force effects, (i.e. Magic Missle , Sheild, wall of force, etc) "Force" used in this context in D&D is an infinatly strong invisible magic resistant weightless material. It would be tough to create an Ars magica equivelent, and in my opinion "force effects" are a D&Dism that in addition to not fitting into the Hermetic spells also don't fit into the ars setting. You can get similar effects in several ways. You can use Muto Auram to create winds that are as hard as steel, you can create invisible walls, you can use rego effects to prevent certain things from crossing a border.

Fate effects, stuff like bless, curse, protection from evil, things that give out general bonuses and penalties. These effects are described by the rules as having a direct effect on the die rolls. Ars spells describe an impact on the game world directly, and only indirectly on the rolls. In Ars a magus could use Muto and Rego mentem spells to do cause penalties and bounuses indirectly but they couldn't point to a target and make them unlucky. Not that it couldn't be done in the setting, just that the hermetic toolbox doesn't have a widget in it to accomplish the task(cunning folk and the published exotic spellcasters from Scotland and Iceland do use these sort of fate effects).

Extradimentional spaces, (familiar pocket , rope trick, bags of holding) Extra dimentions are a concept that doesn't exist in the Ars magica setting. A magus could use muto spells to shrink objects to a size where he could pack them into a small container or a rego spell to move objects to his bag from a distant location but he can't make a new space. There are overlapping layers of reality called regios in the setting which could be used to create effects similar to extra-dimentional spaces but control over creating altering and controling regios is an area that has been used in several products (most recently _Houses of Hermes: True Lineages_) as an example area where hermetic theory is inadaquate and research is needed.

Electricity and Sonic, D&D uses these just like they use fire, cold, and acid. In the ars magica seeting there is no such thing as electricity and while sound can certainly deafen someone it can't make a sword do an extra d6 of sonic damage.

Time effects, these were expressly worked out of fifth edition for some reason. My guess is because "eyes of the past" was way too useful/damaging to mystery themed stories. It is unspecified whether this is a limitation of hermetic magic or a function of the nature of the universe.

These are a few thoughts off the top of my head. Anyone want to add to my list?

"There are several common elements in D&D spells that don't fit comfortably into Hermetic magic.

Force effects, (i.e. Magic Missle , Sheild, wall of force, etc) "Force" used in this context in D&D is an infinatly strong invisible magic resistant weightless material. It would be tough to create an Ars magica equivelent, and in my opinion "force effects" are a D&Dism that in addition to not fitting into the Hermetic spells also don't fit into the ars setting. You can get similar effects in several ways. You can use Muto Auram to create winds that are as hard as steel, you can create invisible walls, you can use rego effects to prevent certain things from crossing a border."

This is why when the topic came up in our gaming session (by the new player) I said magic missile is best done as a CrHe(Re)...basically a "magic" missile rather than some sort of force dart. As magical force is as you point out not a part of Ars Magica...though you could imagine a PeVi anti-demon spell which was more like the D&D magic missile.

"Fate effects, stuff like bless, curse, protection from evil, things that give out general bonuses and penalties. These effects are described by the rules as having a direct effect on the die rolls. Ars spells describe an impact on the game world directly, and only indirectly on the rolls. In Ars a magus could use Muto and Rego mentem spells to do cause penalties and bounuses indirectly but they couldn't point to a target and make them unlucky. Not that it couldn't be done in the setting, just that the hermetic toolbox doesn't have a widget in it to accomplish the task(cunning folk and the published exotic spellcasters from Scotland and Iceland do use these sort of fate effects)."

In D&D I always refere to the "protection from evil" as a "Ward against evil" and that can be done in Ars Magica (well not against evil per se). Though most wards are all or nothing spells in Ars Magica you could make one that is not...such as Aegis of the Hearth for example. You could make a spell that slows down metal objects such as swords granting a defence bonus if your SG let you do this. Bless and so on are again Re type spells which increase accuracy as you point out...and might be not so bad an idea now that I think on it. And while a hermetic mage can not make someone lucky or unlucky I have had such an effect placed on my mage if memory serves. And certainly a fae could do so. A priest could bless you as well, and the story guide is free to set what parameters he or she wills. I recall being told by the abbot just before we set off to slay the demon "Your faith is your armor." My character being pious simply accepted this, while all the other mages nodded their heads and the second they could put their parma on again...they were making magic might defence rolls and my mage wasn't...it turned out that your faith WAS your armor. So I don't see why you could not translate a lot of these type of D&D spells into Ars if you wanted.

"Extradimentional spaces, (familiar pocket , rope trick, bags of holding) Extra dimentions are a concept that doesn't exist in the Ars magica setting. A magus could use muto spells to shrink objects to a size where he could pack them into a small container or a rego spell to move objects to his bag from a distant location but he can't make a new space. There are overlapping layers of reality called regios in the setting which could be used to create effects similar to extra-dimentional spaces but control over creating altering and controling regios is an area that has been used in several products (most recently _Houses of Hermes: True Lineages_) as an example area where hermetic theory is inadaquate and research is needed."

I agree, well to the limited extent I can. I'm afraid that my knowledge of the various products and so forth is limited.

"Electricity and Sonic, D&D uses these just like they use fire, cold, and acid. In the ars magica seeting there is no such thing as electricity and while sound can certainly deafen someone it can't make a sword do an extra d6 of sonic damage."

sonic damage in D&D for weapons is a bit humorous.

"Time effects, these were expressly worked out of fifth edition for some reason. My guess is because "eyes of the past" was way too useful/damaging to mystery themed stories. It is unspecified whether this is a limitation of hermetic magic or a function of the nature of the universe."

I can't begin to comment even.

I certainly feel so long as you respect the hermetic limitations that your imagination is the true limiter of what your mage can do (baring the obvious requirement for the skill in the technique/form required). It is one of the most appealing things about the game.

Dragons in Dungeons and Dragons are fairly wimpy, whereas in Ars Magica if a normal run of the mill dragon was to run into an old mage both would look at each other, decide that the one thing that would be true if they were to fight is that there would likely be one winner and one looser but neither would be certain which catagory they would be in and both would nod at each other and go their seperate ways.

So while one could certainly enchant dragon parts collecting them is the difficulty (except things like dropped scales and the like).

This is dependant on your SG in the end...but dragons are not something you take on lightly in ArM.

But as others have mentioned you should be a lot more specific on what you want to create, not just what about dragon whatevers...but a dragon scale shield or a dragon bone wand of flaming death or.... Because in the end you can make more or less anything your can imagine so long as you don't violate the hermetic limits.

Dragons , as for almost any creature in ArM can be associated with one of the Four Realms (Divine,Faerie,Infernal,Magic).

If for some reason you needed actual Dragon parts , it would be easier to create them with a Creo ritual , rather than trying to kill a dragon.
The Base level to create a Magical Beast in ArM5 is 50(with a Vim requisite) , you add 2 magnitudes to create treated or processed products e.g. your dragonblade axes and hammers.
Including an increase of 01 magnitude for size (the example Dragon on page 194(5e) has size +08),
you are probably looking at a minimum Level 75 CrAn(Vi) ritual.

Unless your saga has lots of Vis , seems likely that , other than finding a conveniently deceased Dragon , you may be out of luck.

A 'dragon' item is more likely to be named and/or carved in the likeness of a dragon, or have capabilities of a dragon, rather than actually be made of a dragon. Dragons are extraordinarily rare and just as powerful. There is a dragon in England for example that haunts an entire covenant of ancient wizards, and they still can't get rid of it (Ungulus I think).

And vis typically takes the form of something that is tangible in some fashion so it can be harvested. Something called 'essence of night' sounds cool, but what form is it, and then what Art is it? Off hand that sounds like Perdo or Imaginem.

How do you harvest the essence of the night? Where do you get the liquid?

In ArM, vis relates directly to one art - either the form or the technique. In different house rules people might have PeVi or PeIm vis, but I'd stick to just one form.

"How do you harvest the essence of the night? Where do you get the liquid?

In ArM, vis relates directly to one art - either the form or the technique. In different house rules people might have PeVi or PeIm vis, but I'd stick to just one form."

Not always - in 4th ed with Hermetic alchemy you could get aspected vis. It involved alchemical operations distilling the vis from objects (the aspect of the vis would be on the lines of the form/effect bonus for the item being used to distill the essence from). I wouldn't be surprised to see it again when Mysteries is revised for 5th edition.

That said, unless using the Mysteries, I would suggest sticking to the more traditional form or technique for vis. For Essence of the Night it would probably be related to Perdo or Ignem (just as it covers fire or ice, with it covering light I would think it could alse be used for darkness). The phrase "Essence of the Night" could just be a useful in-character description for how the vis is obtained. (For example, a black box which seals perfectly must be set out in a certain location overnight during the first new moon of every season, and no light source of any type must enter the box that whole time.)