WGRE expanded 4th edition's book rules, adding physical qualitiy of books as well as some new book types.

For our saga we've allready added the physical quality exactly as described in WGRE, but I'm now looking into adding glosses and comentaries. Glosses seems to be simple; study the text for at least a season, then write in the margin and get a new quality on the text as if you're writing a tractus.
Commentaries could be allowed to follow the same path, and be made as described in WGRE (only with 5th ed quality instead of 4th ed), but this would greatly increase the number of books a single magus could write. As an alternative, commentaries may be ordinary tracti - quotes included in the text (so that the original is not required), and the magus be limited in the total number of commentaries he may write as tracti…

Looking forward to hearing some opinions on this matter…

I would be curious to hear the official line on this myself. I know that glossing can get out of hand, and you have to look at what effect that has for an older mage. If you don't follow what I mean look at the 150 year covenent project and look at what Glossing did to the quality of the books over time.

The physical quality rules are probably not going to upset anything but they add a lot of bother...but then that is not necessarily bad. I just am not sure they are worth the hassel.

Commentaries, again this can get out of hand if memory serves me with mages piggy backing each other but on the other hand it could help a covenent which has few external sources of books.

I would think that this is something the SG has to keep a watch on and to seriously think about as it will have some fairly substantial long term consiquences. Which goes back to the first point, it would be good to hear the official reason for the rules not being included which would at least give a hint which way to proceed when incorporating them.

"I know that glossing can get out of hand, and you have to look at what effect that has for an older mage. If you don't follow what I mean look at the 150 year covenent project and look at what Glossing did to the quality of the books over time"

Just a remark here; in 4th ed quality was dependant on the scribe skill. This is no longer so. Quality now depends only on communication (which does not usually increase with age) and the "good teacher" virtue. Simply put, the greatest scribe in the world would only be able to gloss to a quality of 14 (communication of +5, good teacher +3, and bonus +6). And old mage would be able to write better summae by writing at a lower level than his maximum...

"Simply put, the greatest scribe in the world would only be able to gloss to a quality of 14 (communication of +5, good teacher +3, and bonus +6). And old mage would be able to write better summae by writing at a lower level than his maximum..."

Ok even though I read the rules about that yesterday they apparently had not sunk in. Still you risk having all the books in your library end up at the maximum quality that they can be (assuming one player makes the über-glosser). The change prevents the glossed book exploit though I thought there was something about proffesion scribe in the rules...maybe that was to do with copying. Mind you it is also not clear how you would work in the bonus due to writing below your maximum possible level into a gloss. And as that is probably going to be a significant contribution to a high quality book it makes glossing look not worth while.

Maybe it would be a better idea to have the gloss add say the glosser's communication and good teacher virtue to the quality? This would make glossing worthwhile without making it overwhelming (if it is anymore) but also makes more sense considering what a gloss is.

Ops - mistype on the "And old mage..."
It was supposed to be "A old mage..."

I meant that a skilled magus would be able to mage a higher quality book even with a low communication than this great scribe would be able to...

I personnally don't really think glossing is very overwelming. It does however allow a magus with a low communication to write books that will be used. Even with a -5 in communication, a high level summa will be useful under these circumstances. (Reader studies 1 season (gaining a single xp), and then writes a gloss in the book. After that he can continue to study at a higher rate).

"I personnally don't really think glossing is very overwelming. It does however allow a magus with a low communication to write books that will be used. Even with a -5 in communication, a high level summa will be useful under these circumstances. (Reader studies 1 season (gaining a single xp), and then writes a gloss in the book. After that he can continue to study at a higher rate)."

Call me somewhat dubious of the mechanic. Would a gloss of a badly written book actually modify the books understandability that much? What level of knowledge should be required for this to occur?

Take an extreme example a mage with score 0 in an art, gets his hands on a lvl40/Qu1 summae. He reads it gaining 1 xp and going to score 1, he then glosses it to lvl40/Qu7 say. Is this reasonable? I am talking about in the real world now, since this is the sort of rule which is applicable to using rules based on reality. This is where I worry that the rules for glosses are just too easy to exploit. I can't see a gloss written by someone who truely lacks significant understanding of the text being terribly useful. I think there should be a limit placed on the score required before you can gloss for any good effect and I still think that a gloss should add to the existing quality not replace it with a different number, you aren't rewritting the book after all.

Also is it not possible to improve communications by CrMe rituals?? This would tend to mean that all high level mages have at least a 0 in that stat.

Remember when you where a student? Didn't you write notes in the margins of your books to find important stuff, ease the studies?

That is what a gloss really is.

"I can't see a gloss written by someone who truely lacks significant understanding of the text being terribly useful."

A gloss is a study aid. That is why one has to have spent a season studying the text before one can gloss it. And it doesn't alter the contents of the text (read: the level) in any way, it simply makes it easier to gain useful information out of the text.

"I think there should be a limit placed on the score required before you can gloss..."

There is still the requirement that you have at least 5 in an art or 2 in an ability before writing a book.

"...I still think that a gloss should add to the existing quality not replace it with a different number, you aren't rewritting the book after all"

Eksample of adding to the quality: Magus A has a good teacher and a communication of 5, he writes a good summa with quality 28 (best he can make).
Magus B, has also +5 in communication and good teacher virtue. He glosses the text giving it a quality of 36...
And this is starting to look too much like 4th ed's study levels...

"Remember when you where a student? Didn't you write notes in the margins of your books to find important stuff, ease the studies?

That is what a gloss really is."

I never wrote in any book that I own. That is what notes are for, which in Ars Magica would be commentaries. I have used a gloss though it was in the shakespeare's play books we used in high school and without them we would have been lost as the words had changed meaning enough that the glossary down the side of the page was indispensible. But allow me to be frank here, that glossary was done by proffesionals with a thourgh knowledge of their subject not a student learning as he is going.

Also since you are talking about scribbles in the margin I am doubtful they would be so helpful to the next person reading the book.

"A gloss is a study aid. That is why one has to have spent a season studying the text before one can gloss it. And it doesn't alter the contents of the text (read: the level) in any way, it simply makes it easier to gain useful information out of the text."

Call me confused but again if you don't know at least as much about the subject as the person writing it I hardly see how your comments are going to improve anyone elses understanding nor do I see how you can improve your understanding in read two. This is where someone with a better feel for what a gloss was really capable of accomplishing can comment better.

"There is still the requirement that you have at least 5 in an art or 2 in an ability before writing a book."

But you aren't writing a book you are glossing one.

"Eksample of adding to the quality: Magus A has a good teacher and a communication of 5, he writes a good summa with quality 28 (best he can make).
Magus B, has also +5 in communication and good teacher virtue. He glosses the text giving it a quality of 36...
And this is starting to look too much like 4th ed's study levels..."

*shrug* you are talking about an extreme case here. How many mages have +5 in any characteristic? And realistically you are talking about a gloss done by a superb teacher to another superb teachers work. I find that reasonable...I just can't imagine it actually applying to anyones saga. However, if in your saga this would be a problem I can understand your point of view.

Just a quick thing that looks like it hasn't been mentioned yet. If when writing a book, you voluntarily lower the level of the book, that then increases the Quality. So if the maximum level book you could write was 20, but you wrote it as a level 15 book, the Quality would be higher than the standard formula. Not sure the exact amount, don't have my book with me.

I know this subject is more about glosses and stuff, but they did include simple alternatives for raising Quality already.

You are correct, but that has already been taken into account in the previous posts.

The maximum standard quality (without adding in the level dropping effect) is 14, and requires a Com of +5 and the virtue good teacher to achieve.

The level dropping effect can at most double the maximum standard quality, resulting in the maximum quality any summa can have at this point is 28. Tractatus obviously do not have the level dropping effect available, so the maximum tractatus is of quality 14.

Ed

"*shrug* you are talking about an extreme case here. How many mages have +5 in any characteristic? And realistically you are talking about a gloss done by a superb teacher to another superb teachers work. I find that reasonable..."

Considering how valuable high quality books are, I would suppose that someone will have invented a 60 level spell to increase com (R:touch, max lvl +5). Considering the importance of good com in relation to good books, I would guess that finding someone to cast such a spell (probably someone from a mercurian tradtion - with half vis cost for rituals) shouldn't be too hard. If this is a traditional spell at tribunals, then it could be cast with target group with increased size - at this point it cost less than a single pawn of vis per target. A magus could get a considerable income from such a spell. (If this isn't allready done, then my magus is definitly going to start doing it...)

I thought about this last night and I am going to be pig headed that under the new rules for writing books if you include glossing it has to be additive. The reason is that the base quality of the book is likely to be determined mainly by the amount under the maximum the author could have wrote the book that it is written. This means that in no way can a gloss ever improve the quality of a book functionally...as the glosser will allways be limited to com+virtue+6 (assuming you use that as the new level)...which will be say in most cases in the range 8 to 11. This makes glossing worthless. If it adds the communication+virtue then it becomes a bonus of +1 to +8 to any book which probably is something of value.

I do not forsee anyone in our saga getting enough scores in CrMe to be casting level 60 rituals 5+ times to increase all our mages communications to +5. Though that is up to the story guide not me in the end. Under the new creo rules that is not a spell but a ritual and it only increases your value by +1 per casting and unless you make the ritual specifically for you watch your warping points soar so no target group I think...sorry +5 stat is nice that many warping points I can live without...infact I would rather be without and alive then with and in final twilight.

But I think it is up to others to comment.

Imagine someone with a minor focus on mental enchancment. With scores of 15 in creo and mentem, he would have 45 before MT, aura and int was added. Which is likely to bring him up to 60. Add an apprentice or a familiar and he'll be likely to invent such a spell over the course of a year or two - less if he's willing to experiment. Having invented the spell, it would take him only a single season to reinvent it for anyone else, and given a suficient incitive it would be likely he would. (In other words, finding the man, and convincing him to make a special spell for you would be a story, but it is likely to be a worthwhile one...)

Even without that focus, someone with high enough arts to invent such a spell shouldn't be that hard to get ahold of...

---

Btw - IIRC, you only gain a single warp point per casting in any event, and that may very well prove worth it... (For good books are worth more in trade that poor books...)

"Even without that focus, someone with high enough arts to invent such a spell shouldn't be that hard to get ahold of..."

I believe this is functionally dependant on your SG. I am having difficulties imagining either of mine being quite so generous in the availablity of mages capable of casting +5 stat increasing rituals, the vis required for such ritual being available, and the mage in question being willing to go to the effort for some just out of the gauntlet wet behind the ears mage without there being serious strings attached. Or in a shorter form...yes it is possible, but not something you should count on.

"Btw - IIRC, you only gain a single warp point per casting in any event, and that may very well prove worth it... (For good books are worth more in trade that poor books...)"

I believe it is only a single warp point if the spell is designed for you specifically, which in your original example with target group would not be the case. I don't have the books available to consult so I am not sure what the warp point cost would be otherwise (4 warp points??) but I think it would amount to a substantial increase in your warping score after 4 or 5 castings.

" believe it is only a single warp point if the spell is designed for you specifically, which in your original example with target group would not be the case. I don't have the books available to consult so I am not sure what the warp point cost would be otherwise (4 warp points??) but I think it would amount to a substantial increase in your warping score after 4 or 5 castings."

This much I am 100% sure of - there is no warp increase for a spell either designed for you or cast by you unless it continues for at least 1/2 year...

I think it's 1 point for a short-term spell not designed for you, and 1/season for a continuing (at least half a season) spell not designed for you.

The continuing effect would only apply if you'd want a higher than +5 stat. In that case you'd be using muto, and I have no idea what level the spell would be...

---

Regarding the arts - remember that the suggested spring covenant had one book of level 15 - the author needed to have 30 in that art...

As for the vis, that is more of a problem, because Creo vis is probably the most valuable form of raw vis in the order. (Healing, longlivety...) However, good com and good int means less vis will be used for making new longlivety rituals - so there will be a net gain...

"This much I am 100% sure of - there is no warp increase for a spell either designed for you or cast by you unless it continues for at least 1/2 year...

I think it's 1 point for a short-term spell not designed for you, and 1/season for a continuing (at least half a season) spell not designed for you.

The continuing effect would only apply if you'd want a higher than +5 stat. In that case you'd be using muto, and I have no idea what level the spell would be..."

Someone needs to have a rule books and look this up. But as this is a permanent effect it will warp you even if only 1 pt. It isn't a spell, it is a ritual, it is a permanent increase in a stat you take the warping hit same as for being under a longitivity ritual. Unless I am totally out to lunch.

But this is largely irrelevant at least in the saga I am in. It isn't going to be playing an important part in the Saga. Maybe we can increase 0 stats or lower to +1 but I am NOT anticipating all the mages with +5 int, and communications. And it is a side issue that is up to the SG to monitor.

Back to glossing...

If I understand what you want to do it is keep the bonus from writting under max level possible, and replace the com+virt+6 bonus with the glossers.

I simply don't see this as reasonable. You have scribbled things like "see chapter 2 page 20", "exblah = vim vis to this fruit cake", "inkblot looking mark is actually a picture of a fish...man is he a horrid artist" etc in the margins of the book. To me the next person reading it should get a benifit from the fact you are helping out here BUT unless you rewrite it that basic com+virt+6 from the author should be unchanged. This is why I would make a gloss add your comm+virt to the existing quality.

Yes in extreme cases you might add +8 but lets be frank in most other cases you are more likely then not to add +2 to +4.

This seems/feels more like what a gloss should do to me. If its a poorly written book its a poorly written book and all the glossing in the world won't change that.

Remember that there is (at least in our covenent library) a whole bunch of Lvl6Q21 texts so books like this are common in the Order, but to write one takes a damn good good teacher...so you can assume most are copies of copies of copies.

Where glossing should come in is for the Lvl30Q6 books that must be around. And the question then comes up is it more reasonable for my mage to read that book and gloss it to a Lvl30Q10 book (comm+1, good teacher) or to gloss it to Lvl30Q10 (comm+1, good teacher, +6 base)...oddly enough the results are the same. Assume the writer was now a bit less useless and you get Lvl30Q8 going to Lvl30Q12 or Lvl30Q10 depending on which method is used.

It looks more like a matter of taste to me.

"If I understand what you want to do it is keep the bonus from writting under max level possible, and replace the com+virt+6 bonus with the glossers."

Nope - I'd like to consider a gloss quality to match that of a tractus. That is no bonus for being less than max level (the scribe would most likely not be writing under his max level in any event)

"I simply don't see this as reasonable. You have scribbled things like "see chapter 2 page 20", "exblah = vim vis to this fruit cake", "inkblot looking mark is actually a picture of a fish...man is he a horrid artist" etc in the margins of the book. "

Anything relating to illumination is reflected in physical quality (eg -4 for no illustrations, +3 for well illustrated). This does not really reflect on the actual quality of the book at all, since this is not something that is going to follow into a copy of the text.

"To me the next person reading it should get a benifit from the fact you are helping out here BUT unless you rewrite it that basic com+virt+6 from the author should be unchanged. This is why I would make a gloss add your comm+virt to the existing quality.

Yes in extreme cases you might add +8 but lets be frank in most other cases you are more likely then not to add +2 to +4.

This seems/feels more like what a gloss should do to me. If its a poorly written book its a poorly written book and all the glossing in the world won't change that.

Remember that there is (at least in our covenent library) a whole bunch of Lvl6Q21 texts so books like this are common in the Order, but to write one takes a damn good good teacher...so you can assume most are copies of copies of copies.

Where glossing should come in is for the Lvl30Q6 books that must be around. And the question then comes up is it more reasonable for my mage to read that book and gloss it to a Lvl30Q10 book (comm+1, good teacher) or to gloss it to Lvl30Q10 (comm+1, good teacher, +6 base)...oddly enough the results are the same. Assume the writer was now a bit less useless and you get Lvl30Q8 going to Lvl30Q12 or Lvl30Q10 depending on which method is used.

It looks more like a matter of taste to me."

So you feel that someone with a +1 communication could improve upon what a +5 communication (w/good teacher) wrote? And that someone with a 0 communication can't improve the text of a person with -5 communication at all?

Basicly the thought that "the result is the same" only works for text written by com 0 authors.

---

Just a last note on the magic to increase characteristics: It isn't permanent - it's momentary... More like a healing spell than a longlivety spell...

"Nope - I'd like to consider a gloss quality to match that of a tractus. That is no bonus for being less than max level (the scribe would most likely not be writing under his max level in any event)"

In this case then glossing is pointless. Except when the person who wrote the book was a total incompentent (as far as writing goes) but briallant in his field...Lvl40Q1 book. Then I find the fact you can change this to a Lvl40Q10 book simply by scribbling notes in the margins when your understanding of the field is likely limited a bit extreme.

So why bother with rules for glossing when they will so rarely be used? Are you planning on giving your players a bunch of useless quality books and hope that they can improve them somehow? In most cases the quality of the book is coming from that bonus for being under maximum (in end effect it is as important as the basic value) so removing it by glossing is reducing the quality and the point of a gloss is to improve the book.

Pardon me if I am a bit confused by what you hope to accomplish.

"So you feel that someone with a +1 communication could improve upon what a +5 communication (w/good teacher) wrote? And that someone with a 0 communication can't improve the text of a person with -5 communication at all?"

Due to the way the atribute bonuses work, and the simple formula I gave then the answer to both is yes. If that is realistic *shrug* probably not but it is simple.

You can add 1 to the formula for example and then it will make a gloss by a 0 communications person work. So a gloss adds 1+com+virtue to the existing quality. Note this means a gloss by a poor communicator is going to reduce the quality of the book which also seems reasonable.

"Just a last note on the magic to increase characteristics: It isn't permanent - it's momentary... More like a healing spell than a longlivety spell..."

Not only do I not agree with you, my SG does not agree with you. The ritual is momentary, the effect is permanent. Sorry re-read the rules again. Those are permanent effects just like healing, if done as a ritual and using vis, is also permanent. And because of the level required to get the effect (generally 40+) the rules require the use of ritual rather than formulalistic casting, if memory serves, so you can't make formulistic spells to do this. As my SG was saying you can always improve your apprentice if he or she happens to be a bit slow.

"Not only do I not agree with you, my SG does not agree with you. The ritual is momentary, the effect is permanent. Sorry re-read the rules again. Those are permanent effects just like healing, if done as a ritual and using vis, is also permanent. And because of the level required to get the effect (generally 40+) the rules require the use of ritual rather than formulalistic casting, if memory serves, so you can't make formulistic spells to do this. As my SG was saying you can always improve your apprentice if he or she happens to be a bit slow."

Just to clarify: do you by 'permanent' mean that the spell last forever, or that the effect last forever?

If you're saying that the effect last forever, then we agree.
If you're saying that the spell last forever, then please check the 5th ed book again. No spell last forever (unless it's a undying spell - and that is the result of a botch).

I mean the effect lasts forever.

Looking at the warping rules it seems it isn't so bad to be hit by the ritual even if it is not specifically designed for you.

"I'm wondering, is all this covered in the new Book true Lineage ?"

No