First of all I just wanted to say that I am very pleased with 5th edition. I'm a storyteller at heart, and thuroughly right-brained, so I alter or ignore rules on a regular basis; but just about everything in 5e works perfectly for me and my troupe.

Except maybe the new super Parma... I'm just wondering if any of y'all find it a bit too difficult to Penetrate through Parma now, and if so what alternations have you made to the rules for Penetration and Parma Magica? I'm not necessarily ready to go back to 3e rules on this (I kind of skipped 4e) but I'd love to hear any suggestions folks might have if they feel as we do; that Parma Magica seems a bit too strong now.

Thanks,

~ bander

Read the thread titled:

Parma Blocking Magic Weapons.

This is a pretty descent discussion on how players view the current rules and any in house rules changes they may have implemented.

Banderfetch,

in the earlier ArM versions up to and including ArM4 Parma wasn't much protection against another magus at all: it was very easily breached by using vis to boost an attack spell's casting total. And still the invention of the Parma Magica by Bonisagus was assumed to be have been the single invention allowing magi to come together with little fear of attacks from peers (e. g. ArM4 p. 232).

With ArM5 Parma got much strengthened, and unprepared magi of roughly the same experience now have serious trouble affecting each other with really dangerous spells of - say - 5 or more magnitudes. But even that new Parma does not live up to the old promises of sufficient protection from ones peers, and was given a second function - shielding you from being affected by your peers' Gift - to establish its importance for the founding of the Order.

Basically the new Parma is a compromise.

It can still be breached by serious attacks, if these are cast by significantly more experienced magi, or cast from one-shot items designed to boost their effect's penetration. Especially the latter possibility - requiring only one or two seasons to prepare the items - makes meetings between hostile magi still very ... tense.

Exactly where in your campaign did your PCs or NPCs have problems penetrating a Parma that you - as the SG - wanted to be overcome?

Kind regards,

Berengar

Me and those in my group who have played Ars Magica before played 3rd edition so perhaps this new system is just something we should adjust to, but if you are used to ArM3 this new Parma Magica takes some getting used to.

Our first fairly large confrontation between the players' magi and their rival covenant showed us just how difficult it is to overcome another's Parma without the aid of an Arcane connection or high Penetration device. I'm not saying this stronger Parma Magica is a bad thing at all, just a thing which we are seriously thinking of toning down. I like it being more powerful than it was in ArM3 but I'm not sure I like it this powerful.

Just wondering if anybody else felt this way, but we'll give it another couple games before making a ruling on it.

~ bander

//Our first fairly large confrontation between the players' magi and their rival covenant showed us just how difficult it is to overcome another's Parma without the aid of an Arcane connection or high Penetration device.//
Your observations match mine here.

But in my experience it is a rare - though not unheard of - thing that the magi of two covenants directly lob spells at each other.
Most such spells, once cast, later can be detected by Quaesitores, and given the encompassing interpretations of "deprive or attempt to deprive any member of the order of his magical power" in the 1220s peripheral code, can cause repercussions at tribunals.
So any spell cast at a rival magus needs careful consideration and planning anyway, or it can backfire on the political level: preparing a high penetration item or procuring arcane connections could become just part of this planning.

Kind regards,

Berengar

>> Just wondering if anybody else felt this way, but we'll give it
>> another couple games before making a ruling on it.

Yes. I am not so much worried about magus-on-magus conflicts, since the spell mastery rules do a fair amount to help a magus punch through another magus's resistance. I'm more concerned about hedge wizards (as NPCs), who seem no longer to be a playable threat to even the weakest Hermetic. They have no general Magic Resistance of their own, and their Penetration (p. 184) is extremely low. I used to use non-Hermetic wizards as adversaries and I feel the new rules have closed that option.

"Except maybe the new super Parma... I'm just wondering if any of y'all find it a bit too difficult to Penetrate through Parma now, and if so what alternations have you made to the rules for Penetration and Parma Magica? I'm not necessarily ready to go back to 3e rules on this (I kind of skipped 4e) but I'd love to hear any suggestions folks might have if they feel as we do; that Parma Magica seems a bit too strong now."

An important question...when you converted the mages to the 5th edition rules what did you do to their existing values of parma? Or are these new characters generated under the 5th edition rules?

From experience a begining mage has a parma of 1 to 3. This gives a MR of 10 (base 5 + 5 from roll) to 20 (base 15 + 5 from roll) excepting when you get hit by something you have an art score in or your Parma is specialized against.

This is not exactly "Super Parma" as 11-21 above the casting requirement is not (that) hard to achieve.

//I'm more concerned about hedge wizards (as NPCs), who seem no longer to be a playable threat to even the weakest Hermetic.//

I agree - and hope we shall sometime soon see interesting and somewhat competitive ArM5 hedge magicians again: at least ArM5 versions of the Cunning Folk and Natural Magicians.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Crafting magic items with high penetration scores is another good way. The Penetration trait is rather equitable, add merely 11 levels to the effect and you have +22 Penetration, which is pretty decent by the new rules. Of course it still takes time, but let's say it's a device that throws down a high powered Winds of the Mundane Silence, knock down all their Parmas!

I like the new Parma rules, the reason I do is it requires players to work hard or make clever ways to bypass it.

//I'm more concerned about hedge wizards (as NPCs), who seem no longer to be a playable threat to even the weakest Hermetic. They have no general Magic Resistance of their own, and their Penetration (p. 184) is extremely low.//

There are several reasons the Order is as pervasive throughout Europe as it is, this is one of them. Non-hermetics should not be able to stand up to Order mages. One of the driving benifits of joining the Order during the Founding was acess to Parma. it needed to be better than ir was in previous editions.

Non-hermetic magi can still play a good role as advesaries, its just that they cannot go toe-to-toe with Order Magi. Have them stir up the locals, curse/hex the companions and grogs, devastatet the crops or what have you. It is the Hermetic Mages that throw the lighting and the fire. I don't remember getting that feel to any of the non-hermetics in previous editions.

"There are several reasons the Order is as pervasive throughout Europe as it is, this is one of them. Non-hermetics should not be able to stand up to Order mages. One of the driving benifits of joining the Order during the Founding was acess to Parma. it needed to be better than ir was in previous editions.

Non-hermetic magi can still play a good role as advesaries, its just that they cannot go toe-to-toe with Order Magi. Have them stir up the locals, curse/hex the companions and grogs, devastatet the crops or what have you. It is the Hermetic Mages that throw the lighting and the fire. I don't remember getting that feel to any of the non-hermetics in previous editions."

Sums up my feelings exactly. The Order of Hermes is supposed to the most powerful group of mages in Europe (lets exclude the Islamic mages as they could be justified to be equally powerful)...why should some person who was taught poorly understood concepts, which include a great deal of unnecessary if not outright wrong idea, by someone who was taught the same way even come close? A hedge wizard is powerful compared to a mundane not to a mage of the Order, even one fresh from the guantlet. The order has a theory and structure to its magic, it shares information and has large numbers of books in its libraries, the sum of its knowledge is greater than any hedge wizard could imagine. Its like comparing a university graduate to someone that could only study in the local library.

The trouble, as I understand it, was that the various authors each kept coming up with these groups that were "Challenging" without keeping in mind that the Order was supposed to be the most powerful group of mages...

I am hoping that the existance of a single editor will curb this and maintain the order's place in the magical hierarchy were is seems to have been intended.

Yes I know I probably offended loads of people but this is something I have found absurd in the past and I am hoping that ArM5 cures this problem.

// But even that new Parma does not live up to the old promises of sufficient protection from ones peers, and was given a second function - shielding you from being affected by your peers' Gift - to establish its importance for the founding of the Order. //

Does the second effect also apply to other people protected by a magus's parma? I think that would make sense, but I can't find anything in the book to say so. How about a familiar (one that reacts negatively to the Gift)?

//Does the second effect also apply to other people protected by a magus's parma? I think that would make sense, but I can't find anything in the book to say so.//
Yes, it does. For an explicit ruling see e. g. ArM5 p. 106: "Since an apprentice without a Parma Magica would normally suffer a -3 penalty to all totals due to the effect of The Gift, the Order has ruled that failing to extend your Parma Magica to cover your apprentice during training is a violation of the requirement to train your apprentice properly. If your score in Parma Magica is three or less, it does not give you any bonus to magic Resistance while shared, but it still deadens the effect of The Gift."
//How about a familiar (one that reacts negatively to the Gift)?//
I would read ArM5 p.76: "The Parma Magica blocks these effects entirely." to also include the Parma shared with familiars or any other beings otherwise affected by The Gift.

Kind regards,

Berengar

When I run Hedge type magicians in my saga, I give them magic resistance to the tech/form (more so the form) that they use on a regular basis. Basically I have limited these guys in areas of power and only give them resistance in those particular areas. So if an elementalist type hedgy faces the my magi, casting the corpus spell will whack him good, while the ignem spell will do little if any damage.

"If there ain't no rules, make them up yourself."