There is a spell I'm thinking of composing which I'm not totally certain breaks the limits of Hermetic magic or not.

The spell is a fairly simple one in concept. The idea here is for a spell to join together two pieces of stone. The method is to soften them to clay using MuTe and then to use ReTe to join them as one. The claylike softness fails when the MuTe effect wears off. The question is whether the joining that was done while the rock was softened would be undone when the MuTe effect wore off.

The fundamental concept behind this spell is to make a Covenant (or at least a sanctum) less drafty.

Ah, but first to find the diamonds, which come from far away India (via Caravans) to the west. Yes, yes, a CrTe ritual would do the same thing, but I think there are better uses for the 5 pawns of vis (which gets you 1 cubic inch / 16.4 cm^3 of rough diamonds). The question is Why would you want to make such a thing, when magic can do the job much simpler (Precision Perdo effects are fun!)? (Most diamond drills are high alloy (good concentrations of Nickel, Cobalt, Chrome, Vanadium, Molybdenum, Titanium, Tungsten, etc) content steel, with diamonds on the cutting edges of the bit - the stresses at the cutting end are enormous, and a simple steel bit would twist in 2...)

Seems like the aformentioned effect would be simple enough to do, since Rock to Viscid Clay (Ars5, pg 154) does mostly the same thing; You could trowel the clay-like rock into place easily by hand. Likewise, a simple modification to this spell and you could pour the water-like rock into place...

I see no problems in using either a more advanced version (MuTe(Re), perhaps L20), or a combination of 2 simple spells to get the job done.

Steve

Thank you for the commentary. I'm thinking about ways that Magi could build a Covenant using magic, especially if they didn't want to waste Vis using "Conjuring the Mystic Tower".

One method, if there's a ruin already is to bring in additional rock (to replace what was already lost to erosion) and then use the MuTe spell above with Rego and Creo requisites to restore the tower and if anything even improve on it by fusing mortared stones into a solid creation.

Another one is to use ReTe to haul the rock up and then MuTe with Rego to mold a tower into shape. A higher level spell probably than CrTe, but it has the advantage of not requiring Vis.

// I'm thinking about ways that Magi could build a Covenant using magic, especially if they didn't want to waste Vis using "Conjuring the Mystic Tower".//

Let's see... you could start with a craggy mountaintop, and lay a very long rope on the ground in a loop. Cast CrTe with Target Circle to preserve the stone inside the boundary from destruction. Then you step back to a safe distance, and PeTe the whole of the rest of the mountaintop, down to a certain depth, leaving a cylindrical stone column.

Fly up to the top of the column, break the ring and shorten it by 20 paces to make a concentric circle. The you PeTe all the stone inside the boundary, down to the same depth, to give yourself a circular tower of unbroken stone with walls about ten feet thick. Some finishing touches will be required for a habitable building. Of course, I'm assuming that Hermetic circles can work downwards as well as upwards (and sideways if you use the same technique to make windows).

You can also simply CrTe a tower with duration ring, but there are several good reasons for not living in one of those.

You are assuming the rock has no factures. Mountains are thrust into the sky by tectonic forces, generally speaking I believe they are shot through with factures.

Buildings were cut out of solid rock, but the only examples I know of are sandstone. Large desposits of sandstone exist that are contiguous.

Iirc LoFaI had a spell tunnelling spell that mended the rock as it went.

Regards

- David W

I did wonder about that. You might need to use your Intellego to find a place where the rock was solid and unbroken. Ancient civilisations sometimes erected granite stelae over thirty metres tall, and I think the limit was the size of the block they could move, not the size they could find.

On the other hand, even with fractures, many cliffs of a variety of rocks are steep, almost vertical. A tube would have more difficulty supporting itself - at a minimum, it would be safer to do without windows and light the tower by magic.

I personally would frown on allowing the Circle target to be used in this manner (and disallow it). It seems like an exploitation, treating it as a simple mechanic or tool, rather than as a mystical aspect of magic.

On another note, I'm not sure if it carried to 5th Ed., but in 4th Ed. several of the Ring duration spells indicated the area of effect formed a dome over the ring. I would extrapolate that to imply a full sphere at best, and would assume the same for Circle targets.

In my opinion, I would allow direct PeTe spells and simply require Finesse rolls to achieve the desired effect. I might also require some degree of engineering on the part of the magus to achieve a sound design.

// I personally would frown on allowing the Circle target to be used in this manner (and disallow it). It seems like an exploitation, treating it as a simple mechanic or tool, rather than as a mystical aspect of magic.//

But that's what a theory of magic is for: to turn mystical phenomena into tools. Magi should be able to exploit the rules of Hermetic magic in any way they can devise. Naturally, players exploiting the rules of the game are another matter, and you can frown on that all you like. It would also be a different matter if Cicrcle targets were not fully understood in Hermetic theory.

A possible theoretical approach is to consider Circle, Room and Structure as special cases of Boundary. It seems Boundary spells can affect phenomena underground (The Bountiful Feast must affect root crops), and high above (Calling the Odious Drought influences rainfall). In the case of a Circle, you could have the ground form a lower boundary, or not - either would be consistent.

The text implies that Circle spells can only affect individuals, not parts, which I think is a good idea. This would disallow my first Circle above, but I think a ReVi Circle could achieve the same effect. (The second Circle can easily be replaced with an enhanced version of Pit of the Gaping Earth.) I note in passing that all the Circle spells in the rulebook are limited to preventing things from crossing the Circle and, by implication, from affecting the Circle itself. If necessary to prevent exploits, that could be an extra restriction on such magic.

// On another note, I'm not sure if it carried to 5th Ed., but in 4th Ed. several of the Ring duration spells indicated the area of effect formed a dome over the ring. I would extrapolate that to imply a full sphere at best, and would assume the same for Circle targets. //

Good point - 5th Edition says many of the wards look like domes, which does suggest the actual effect is spherical/hemispherical. A sphere is very logical and Neoplatonic, but it makes it difficult for a maga to ward herself quickly or in a confined area, even if crouching down. That problem is probably acceptable, but I dislike warded creatures flying overhead and dropping things - it should require more ingenuity to bypass a ward.

I'd be happy to make a Circle spell affect all things in a cone extending from the centre of the Earth to the lunar Sphere. That would fit in the Medieval paradigm, and constrain the Circle to act vertically. With some handwaving it can be made consistent with the domed appearance (the sphere is holding the cone open, say).

Thought experiment: what happens if a magus on a clifftop casts a small but strong Circular Ward Against Demons, and then a powerful devil attempts to destroy the whole cliff? I would like to leave the magus standing on an isolated pillar of stone, because the Circle extends downwards, and it protects a part of the cliff just as it would protect the air inside the circle. Other possibilities would be:
The magus is left standing in midair, looking like Wile E. Coyote, because the Circle does not extend below the ground.
The magus is left standing in midair, again LLWEC, because the Circle cannot protect only part of something.
The magus is left standing on a hemisphere of stone in midair, LLWEC, because the Circle affects a sphere.
The Infernal power fails, because the Circle includes part of the cliff. (I don't like that, because a cliff isn't an individual.)
The Infernal power either fails, or leaves the magus on a pillar, because the spell prevents it from harming him. (This is the literal reading of the description, but I don't like it, because it implies intelligence on the part of the ward.)

The cone idea also means a demon summoned into a Circle can be more of a nuisance, e.g. using his powers to dominate someone upstairs.

I think PeTe with finesse would be okay too, but it would take a lot of skill, given the difficulty of targeting parts. I guess a square tower would be the easiest shape.

/// I'd be happy to make a Circle spell affect all things in a cone extending from the centre of the Earth to the lunar Sphere. That would fit in the Medieval paradigm, and constrain the Circle to act vertically. With some handwaving it can be made consistent with the domed appearance (the sphere is holding the cone open, say). ///

Isn't the Earth still flat at this point?

You have obviously given this a lot of thought, so I say go with it. If it fits your saga, great! I still wouldn't allow it.

As for demons and mountain-smashing... frankly, if a demon has the Might to destroy a mountainside to get to you, it's probably A) powerful enough to walk right through the ward, or B) powerful enough that it doesn't need to walk through the ward or shatter the mountainside... it has all the time in the world to corrupt your soul, and plenty of minions and machinations at its disposal.

"Isn't the Earth still flat at this point?"

No; this is a popular misconception about the Middle Ages. The earth was actually known to be a sphere at this point in history.

Cheers,

Niall

Just make sure you get them to clean their tools, boots and hands properly afterwards...

Cheers,

Pell.R.

On reflection, I have to agree that Circle targets must be spherical. That's the most straightforward interpretation of the descriptions, whereas a cone would encompass a very large amount of material, most of it out of range of the magus's senses. I don't mind missing out on a way to build neat towers so much as the fact that it makes wards fairly minor hindrances to enemies. Besides dropping and pushing things through the top, they can undermine the sphere, which would usually make the Ring collapse.

But back to the topic. Turning stone into malleable clay and back again is more or less reinventing concrete (which I believe was known to the Romans, but forgotten in Medieval times). You save on stonemasons, but you will still require skilled builders, and your tower will take as long to erect as a mundane 13th-century stone building (Notre Dame de Paris, say).

A more elaborate wheeze would be to create a temporary structure to form the core of your tower, change some rock to a thick liquid, and pour it down the outer surface of your mould. Let the spell expire to deposit the stone like a stalactite. Muto, rinse, repeat. You will need to get enough rock in place to support its own weight before the original Creo expires (probably best to build it one storey at a time). The unusual dribbly candle texture will make it clear to everyone that this is a very special building.

I considered changing stone to Auram, and using a small twister to whirl it into a cone, but I thought it would disperse too fast, leaving you with dust, or at best very crumbly pumice. Perhaps a powerful ReAu could keep it in shape, but you could more easily change it to sand and use a similarly high-level ReTe.

Another possibility is to temporarily Conjure a Mystic Tower, and then use a hitherto-unknown ReTe spell to exchange it, bit by bit, with natural stone nearby. It's best to make the tower a different colour from your building material, so you can see which what you've swapped. I don't see any spells for exchanging pairs of objects (let along pieces of objects), so I expect this would require a load of research. Perhaps you could simply use a teleportation ritual (ReTe 60 or so) to pinch a tower from someone else's castle, but that would probably arouse unfavourable comment.

More difficult, but interesting if successful, is to use InTe to speak to a large rock, and persuade it to shape itself into a home for you. You would still need to find some way of empowering it to move, of course, and you may find that the shape it wants to assume isn't ideal for your purposes. You may also find that it likes to move ... very ... very ... slowly.

Sorry" , but i dont get the problem with 'Conjure the Mystic Tower'."

I believe that the problem is that as a ritual it consumes vis to cast it. The people posting are brainstorming ideas for destitute magi for whom seasons of work are less valuable than vis.