Well for a warrior grog you need some Virtue or other that enables you to learn Martial Abilities - Custos, Warrior, or the Flaw Outlaw (there may be others). The Standard Soldier template is a Warrior, so he has access to Martial Abilities.

The approach in ArM5 seems to be to make character concepts into Virtues, so the concept of a "custos" (trusted, high-ranking grog) and the concept of a "warrior" (combat veteran) are different. I happen to think this is a bad approach. It causes confusion among people who can't read the author's mind to percieve the often-minor distinctions between this Virtue and that. It leads to Virtues and Flaws that have overlapping, but different effects. Custos merely allows access to Martial Abilities, while Warrior allows access and gives you free experience points - yet they both cost the same!

If you think of Virtues and Flaws as building blocks that give abilities and benefits from which to create the character you like, there is no reason for the Custos Virtue to exist - its effects are similar to, but weaker than, choosing one of the following: Educated, Arcane Lore, Warrior. The only reason to take Custos is if your idea of the character is better described by the text of that Virtue than by the others, and you're willing to give up 50 experience points to have a specific Virtue just for you rather than a more one-size-fits- all Virtue (that comes with Experience Points).

I think if one were to comb through all the Virtues and Flaws and rewrite them in a general form that can apply to any character, rather than "character concept in a box," the number of V&F's would be cut approximately in half - but they would be a lot more useful because you could use any Virtue or Flaw to apply to any character. Players tend to clamor for ever-more Virtues in each supplement but all we seem to end up with are new Virtues like "left-handed French hatmaker." I call that, needless complexity.

//Custos merely allows access to Martial Abilities, while Warrior allows access and gives you free experience points - yet they both cost the same!//

One fix bringing out clearly the distinction between a Custos and a Covenfolk Warrior would be to give the Custos a free good reputation 'Custos', 'Guardian', 'Trusted' or such of level 3 among a covenant's members and servants.
After all, Custodes "have a high status within the walls" of a covenant.

Kind regards,

Berengar

//Custos merely allows access to Martial Abilities, while Warrior allows access and gives you free experience points - yet they both cost the same!//

I would allow someone with a Custos status to have better equipment than other covenfolk, and custos would be in a natural leadership position.

I am still not sure, if custos is a must for the covenants warriors or not,since:

1. All the warriors of Semita Errabunda are custos, all the other grogs (housemaids etc.) are covenfolk. Why? At least the AM-Staff should know the rules...

2. The Latin word custos means guard.

The problem is, that the describtion of the Custos Social-Status says nothing about warriors or guards (and all warrior NSCs from the corebook are Covenfolk). With only the describtion of the corebook in mind, there should be warriors with the social status Custos (the important ones) and then, there should be Covenfolk warriors (the cannon- äh, swordfodder). But every Custos warrior is normally a weaker fighter than one from the covenfolk, it seems, that skill is not so important to climb up the social ladder, at least according to Virtues and Flaws of AM5.

I really think this issue is worth an official answer in the faq's.

It sounds like you're just looking for a straight answer. In my unofficial opinion, you don't *need* the Custos virtue to play a fighting grog - all you need is some Virtue that grants access to Martial Abilities. As I pointed out above, Custos is not a good choice from a min/max point of view because Warrior gives Martial Abilities plus experience points. The reason to choose it is roleplaying - it defines the character in such a way that the magi are supposedly ready to rely on him for dangerous missions.

As to why all the Semita Errabunda grogs are have the "custos" Virtue, I can't say because I didn't write them. Given there are only 4 Virtues and Flaws I can think of that grant access to Martial Abilities - two of which, Knight and Outlaw, are not always well suited to grogs - there is a fair chance that it's just coincidence.

Ultimately, even an "official" answer can't tell you how to run the covenant in your own game. If you think it makes sense for all grogs to need the "custos" Virtue, you can make it so.

"The problem is, that the describtion of the Custos Social-Status says nothing about warriors or guards (and all warrior NSCs from the corebook are Covenfolk). With only the describtion of the corebook in mind, there should be warriors with the social status Custos (the important ones) and then, there should be Covenfolk warriors (the cannon- äh, swordfodder). But every Custos warrior is normally a weaker fighter than one from the covenfolk, it seems, that skill is not so important to climb up the social ladder, at least according to Virtues and Flaws of AM5."

Simple solution to the problem. All grogs intended to fight take the vitue "Warrior", all grogs intended to lead the fighters take, in addition, the virtue "Custos."

"Simple solution to the problem. All grogs intended to fight take the vitue "Warrior", all grogs intended to lead the fighters take, in addition, the virtue "Custos.""

Not that simple, since there are more virtues, which could affect fighting prowess: Tough, Lightning Reflexes, Large, Imp. Characteristics, Puissant Ability etc..
A Covenfolk warrior has always the chance to be a better fighter (leader,singer,rider whatever), than an Custos warrior.

Take a Covenfolk warrior with the Virtues "Warrior", "Tough" and "Puissant Ability Leadership" and compare it to a Custos warrior with "Custos", "Warrior" and "Tough". Which one would you make the leader of grogs?

Our GM believes, wrongly in my eyes, that every warrior-grog has to be a custos (and that the corebook warrior grogs are all faulty).

The reason why i started this thread is, that i desperately need some good, hopefully official, points for the discussion in our round.

//The reason why i started this thread is, that i desperately need //some good, hopefully official, points for the discussion in our
//round.

Why didn't you say so in the first place! :-) I think I can help you with some good points.

//Our GM believes, wrongly in my eyes, that every warrior-grog has to be
//a custos (and that the corebook warrior grogs are all faulty).

Wrongly in my eyes too. I do not believe the book says this anywhere, so your storyguide must be basing his conclusion on something. Getting him to point to the exact passages that he think supports his view will help you figure out where he has gone wrong.

It is hard to prove that something doesn't exist, but that is what you are forced to do in this case. You have to prove there is no rule that says a PC fighting grog has to be custos. That's kind of like trying to prove there is no such thing as the Easter Bunny.

If there were an Easter Bun - I mean, a requirement that fighting grogs have to be Custodes - then why would the templates *in the book* ignore that fact? The book was playtested by a whole bunch of people, me among them. There are errata for the ArM5 book, but they don't mention the Custos Virtue. What your SG is trying to believe is that the templates in the book were done wrong, all the playtesters missed the mistakes, and the mistakes have not been found and listed in the errata. Alternatively, maybe the book templates are not wrong. Occam's Razor says given two competing premises, the one that requires the fewer preconditions (that is, the simpler one) is more likely true. So you've got Occam on your side.

There are a number of places where the ArM5 book spells out various restrictions on how grogs can be made. p.28 says what Virtues and Flaws they are limited to. This is repeated on p. 37. Neither place says anything about needing the Custos Virtue. If it were missing, would it be missing from both places?

Anyway, in order to win the argument I think you are going to need to have the SG explain his side and then shoot holes in it. That, combined with the lack of evidence to support his interpretation, and the lack of people chiming in on this forum saying "your SG is right!" should carry the tide in your favor.

Good luck.

>Our GM believes, wrongly in my eyes, that every warrior-grog has to be a custos (and that the corebook warrior grogs are all faulty).

Custodes (?) are favored grogs, so the average guard is definitely not a custos. This would be more for specialists, shield grogs or turb sergeants.

The Warrior virtue corresponds to a veteran status (it was formerly called Veteran in ArM4). Most fighting grogs won't have it. It is not mandatory for custodes either.

"Take a Covenfolk warrior with the Virtues "Warrior", "Tough" and "Puissant Ability Leadership" and compare it to a Custos warrior with "Custos", "Warrior" and "Tough". Which one would you make the leader of grogs?"

The Custos. The other person doesn't have the respect of the other warrriors, and until he earns that his leadership skills will be for naught. Custos are trusted and respected, that counts for a lot in real life leadership, especially in a combat situation.

"Our GM believes, wrongly in my eyes, that every warrior-grog has to be a custos (and that the corebook warrior grogs are all faulty)."

No, most grogs will not be Custos, custos are the older more respected more trusted grogs in the covenent. There will be only a few of them.

It is also not clear why you need to take the warrior virtue, as that assumes the person had actual combat experience which may or may not be the case. Every grog having warrior strikes me as a bit cookie cutter-ish not to speak of min-maxing to the max which I find distastefull.

But there was a very nice post by a playtester which you should probably show your SG.

"Wrongly in my eyes too. I do not believe the book says this anywhere, so your storyguide must be basing his conclusion on something. Getting him to point to the exact passages that he think supports his view will help you figure out where he has gone wrong."

Our Storyguide bases his opinion soley on the fact, that all warrior-grogs of Semita Errabunda are Custos. Since this covenant was also playtested by the AM-Staff, he reasons, that this must be a kind of rule clarification. We had a longer heated debate over this fact, but in the end, we made all our warrior-grogs Custos. Since grogs are not that important, this is somehting i can live with, but at least, i wan't be the one, who has the stronger points on his side....:)

>Our Storyguide bases his opinion soley on the fact, that all warrior-grogs of Semita Errabunda are Custos.

Bad idea from the designers IMHO.

I think the fact that Semita Errabunda is a Spring covenant is confusing your story guide. The covenant is small and close knit. There are only five grogs, and they all happen to be very loyal to the covenant, therefore they are Custos.

If you had a much larger covenant, all of the grogs would not be this loyal. In fact, some grogs would likely be mercenaries and not be trusted at all. As the covenant grows and the magi gain in age and power, the "peons" will spend less time with them. The grogs will begin to age and die, and be replaced while the magi continue on, because of this the new crop might not be as loyal.

The only way the Custos advantage has a purpose is if there are other grogs out there who aren't trusted and respected. I might argue that someone would have to be Custos before he was elevated to sheild grog, but not everyone who has the primary job of fighting should be Custos.

// Well for a warrior grog you need some Virtue or other that enables you to learn Martial Abilities - Custos, Warrior, or the Flaw Outlaw (there may be others).//

Mercenary Captain grants these Abilities; so do the Beserk and Branded Criminal flaws, which I find rather dubious. Knight and Privileged Upbringing allow Martial Abilities too, but such characters wouldn't usually be grogs. Redcaps and Outlaw Leaders get them also, but they would never be grogs.