What's everyone's opinion on this lesser limit?

Was this limitation imposed simply to allow for whodunnits and other mystery related stories? Or was it because it would make Imaginem to powerful of a form?

I am curious because if you look at historical "magic," one of the prime reasons for casting spells was to predict the future. Astrology and necromancy were both primarily used to prognosticate. How do people handle this in their games?

Hermetic magic is supposed to be the most powerful in Europe, but magi cannot see into the future or past. How can hedge magicians? Do you allow any hedge magicians to forecast the future? If not, are they just deluded or are they charlatans?

Some Church officials believe that any communication with spirits is actually communication with Demons. This could be one way to handle hedge magicians predictions of the future. They are actually being lied to by demons who feed the spell caster what he wants to hear in order to advance their Infernal plans.

My opinion is that there is no Art that readily accepts the aspects of Time as a Form. In this regard, Hermetic magic cannot *see* the future or past based on Imaginem, nor affect the future or past directly. You could argue Vim as the "catch all" Form, but I believe that including such things in the scope of the Vim form is a stretch.

I see no reason to disallow the continued use of divination type magic that fits hedge traditions. My feeling is that most auguries and divinations, being based on omens and portents, have a certain "divine" (or "infernal") influence to them. Perhaps the very nature of Hermetic magic - quantifying it to a mechanical, formulaic, academic study - has "weeded out" the pagan impurities of such hedge traditions.

Many Hermetic magi may believe that the "divination" that hedge wizards profess to command is merely superstition or, at best, accute intuition, but not magic.

On the other hand, I would personally consider allowing Hermetic forms of augury, like that presented in The Mysteries, whereas specific spells could be invented to help "interpret" the nature of omens. For example, an InAn(Au) spell to "interpret" the flight patterns of birds. This would allow the SG to provide "good" or "bad" omens without allowing a magus to "see" the future. Similarly, Intellego spells might be allowed to perceive residual arcane connections on an object that might allow one to "sense" past associations, without "seeing" into the past.

Ultimately, I think that true seeing into the past or present would be the domain of the divine and infernal, neither to be "commanded" by the power of Hermetic magic.

The prohibition of 'Eyes of the Past' was an annoying surprise.

Some might have imagined the Limit clearly prohibited scrying without the specific clarification. Is not EotP 'affecting' time?...

One can only speculate at what point the clarification was added.

Regards

- David W

//I am curious because if you look at historical "magic," one of the prime reasons for casting spells was to predict the future. Astrology and necromancy were both primarily used to prognosticate.//

Hermetic magic has nothing to do with the medieval European ideas about magic which are still known to us. Neither do its limitations.

I think that the main motivation to introduce the extended 'Limit of Time' into a very freewheeling and open magic system like that of ArM is to protect SGs from pushovers by players or their own setting.
While medieval lords at times went to great lengths to know the future, a magus really, safely and confidently knowing details of his chosing from the future (like from casting a reproducible spell with known effects and limitations) could turn Mythic Europe upside down.

Whether scrying the past is a problem or not depends on the campaign. Many players are bored if every important investigation is basically finished after roughly ascertaining time and place of an event. Others are quite happy that they do not need to do more, and would focus rather on action, lab work, role playing or politicking.

Kind regards,

Berengar

I was under the general impression (from the berklist) that Demons could not in fact see the future either (This is the Province of the Divine) but because they have such extensive knowledge they can make it seem as if they can predict the future (mortals have been asking the same questions for thousands of years after all).

Similar thing with Faerie , they cant predict the future so much as with the skewed ranges , durations and targets of their magic get mortals to self-fulfill a Destiny or Doom laid down for them.

Thing is , what constitutes the 'past' , its everything that isnt 'Now' (dont know if this is Paradigm).So you cant in fact see one second into the past or even any smaller fraction thereof.

There must be some overlap , or scrying & clairvoyance would be a series of continuous instant flashes of the 'Now' with zero duration , as you cant see the past (or future) with Hermetic Magic.

What you could do is set up magical sensors (In/Various) that store full sense images of everything that happens in range (environmental triggers , so you dont get years of grass growing).

Just leave these in place for future generations to benefit , or even years/decades later.Not as useful as selectively viewing the past in any location but better than nothing as an information source.

//Hermetic magic has nothing to do with the medieval European ideas about magic which are still known to us. Neither do its limitations.//

Yeah, I never said that historical "magic" should govern anything about Hermetic magic. My point was that historically there were a lot of people who thought they were casting "spells" or paying people to cast "spells" that could predict the future. Presumably these people are present in Mythic Europe too.

Obviously, they don't go to Hermetic magi to pay for these spells. Hedge magicians are casting these "spells". My question is in people's campaigns are they just charlatans taking the people's money? Are they deluded and think their "spells" actually work? Or can they actually predict the future?

If they can actually see into the future, how are they doing it? Is it just that they can interpret omens and get a general idea of trends?

The flaw Visions allows the character to see in the past or future. Is this divinely inspired in your campaign?

//My point was that historically there were a lot of people who thought they were casting "spells" or paying people to cast "spells" that could predict the future. ...
Obviously, they don't go to Hermetic magi to pay for these spells. Hedge magicians are casting these "spells". My question is in people's campaigns are they just charlatans taking the people's money? Are they deluded and think their "spells" actually work?//

What do you mean by 'spells' here?

What we still know of medieval magical practices predicting the future has little or nothing of the concept of an Hermetic spell - and especially does not imply the level of control over the results which an Hermetic spell has.

Please understand that I cannot summarize here what we know about medieval magical practice. To get a good idea of the current state of historical research - hampered by lack of sources, since few medieval writers bothered with this uncouth or suspect practices - read Richard Kieckhefer, Magic in the Middle Ages, Cambridge University Press 1990.
In cp. 4 the book accounts on ways to 'prophesy':
interpretation of dreams, thunder, chance occurrences,
astrological tables of favorable and unfavorable days,
number, book and dice oracles,
practices to cause prophetic dreams,
more or less disguised reenactions of the last supper to determine a 'Judas', or of St. Helen's search for the cross to find and retrieve stolen items.
All these give very little control over the actual result.

There is just one divinatory practice referred by Kieckhefer in cp.4 which resembles an Hermetic spell at all, and that does not involve predicting the future: putting the heart and left foot of a toad on a sleeping person's mouth makes him answer truthfully to any posed question.

//Or can they actually predict the future?//
IMCs the above practices work, if performed in the right way and by the right people - e. g. natural magicians and cunning folk.
Most can be replicated within the ArM rules by introducing supernatural abilities - though I would like to have comprehensive ArM5 rules on cunning folk or natural magicians again, if only to allow player characters a more structured approach to such practices. Perhaps these will appear in the Magic Domain book, or the 3rd volume of Houses of Hermes, under 'Ex Miscellanea'?

//The flaw Visions allows the character to see in the past or future. Is this divinely inspired in your campaign?//
IMCs not. But a character cannot control his Visions.
Bestowing to somebody a truthful vision of any future event of his own choosing IMCs is the exclusive prerogative of the Divine and - within limits - the Infernal, however.

Kind regards,

Berengar

My thought for ArM5 was to have an Oracle who could contact spirits from beyond the Lunar Sphere.

The current nature of Hermetic Magic would prevent you duplicating this feat (obviously).

These Spirits would be able to predict Major events , but not help you find a lost necklace or dog.

I have a preference for making these Spirits part of the Magic Realm , which means a Hermetic breakthrough (should you want it) is possible.Thus encouraging a magus to investigate this type of Hedge Magic.

However the revised 'Mysteries' may well have something of use in canon im hoping.

I guess I'm not making myself clear here. I am NOT talking about Hermetic Magic and its ability to "see" into the future. It's clear the rules make that impossible without a breakthrough of some sort. I don't know why you keep referring to it.

//What we still know of medieval magical practices predicting the future has little or nothing of the concept of an Hermetic spell - and especially does not imply the level of control over the results which an Hermetic spell has.//

I don't know exactly what you mean by this, but I think you're either wrong or talking strictly about your opinion. Having never cast a Hermetic spell, I can't say what is involved in a ritual. Any difference between a historical spell/ritual/rite and a Hermetic ritual is solely in your opinion. The Ars Magica books avoid specifics in spell casting other than the requirement for vis and the time required to cast.

Historical "spells" don't imply the level of control over the results that the game mechanics do? Of course, this is the case. Maybe it has something to do with historical spells never working because magic isn't real? But regardless, I'm not talking about Hermetic spells, I'm talking about hedge magicians and the things they do, which I referred to as "spells," but one could call "rituals," "practices" or "rites."

I'm not asking you to summarize anything historical. I don't know where you picked that up from. I own Kieckhefer's "Magic in the Middle Ages" and it is a good introductory book. His book "Forbidden Rights," which is set in the 15th Century, is also very good. Conjuring Spirits by Fanger is a good one also. (Actually anything in the Penn State Press Magic in History series is going to be pretty good.) "Withcraft in the Middle Ages" by Russell; "Withcraft, Magic & Alchemy" by de Givry and "Witchcraft and Magic in Europe" by Ankarloo and Clark are also good.

My question is pretty basic: Given (1) the historical fact that people were doing things to predict the future (call these practices spells, rituals, rites, whatever . . .), (2) the fact that there is no ARM5 guidance in this area and (3) Hermetic magic is incapable of predicting the future, how do story guides treat these non-Hermetic attempts to predict the future?

It sounds like you don't have a problem allowing hedge magicians to predict the future in your campaign, and you seem to imply that magic can predict the future. If you're allowing hedge magicians to use magic to predict the future, then in theory it could be incorporated into Hermetic theory. That's fine, as long as that's a consequence you have anticipated. It does, however, raise the question, why hasn't anyone incorporated it, especially given its overwhelming usefulness?

//As an aside to this, can you use an InVi spell to determine a Target's place and time of birth for the purpose of creating a Nativity Horoscope Sympathetic Connection?//

I think there are two possible approaches you could take to this.

1. "Level 10 Intellego Corpus - Sense all useful information about a body." Is a body's place and time of birth part of its essential nature? Is it "useful information about a body"? I think you could definitely make that argument for birth place and location.

For other things, it is harder to make that argument. Is what a body ate for breakfast "useful information"? I doubt it, but maybe. Where do you draw the line between what's useful and what's viewing some aspect of the past of the body? Is the contents of a body's stomach useful, probably?

Is the cause of death a useful piece of information about the body? Sure. Is the identity of the body's killer useful information about a body? That's a tougher line to draw and approaches viewing the past.

2. The other approach to take is that it requires viewing the past and is beyond Hermetic limits.

//It sounds like you don't have a problem allowing hedge magicians to predict the future in your campaign, and you seem to imply that magic can predict the future. If you're allowing hedge magicians to use magic to predict the future, then in theory it could be incorporated into Hermetic theory. That's fine, as long as that's a consequence you have anticipated. It does, however, raise the question, why hasn't anyone incorporated it, especially given its overwhelming usefulness?//
Given that you have read all the books you refer to: then you have noticed that all the medieval practices divining the future described in them expect so unspecific results that - if one assumes they work in Mythic Europe - they are of very little importancce to the game world, a campaign, or to the caster.

//Any difference between a historical spell/ritual/rite and a Hermetic ritual is solely in your opinion.//
Certainly not - though it appears I should still elaborate a little to make myself understood.
All Hermetic effects - rituals or not - in the ArM5 rules allow very precise specification by and control of the caster over the effect: see the InCo, InIm or InMe effects descriptions.
It is like: "show me the office of the Sheriff of Nottingham, and what the people currently talk about there".
Being able to divine past or future with Hermetic magic would hence be like: "show me the office of the Sheriff of Nottingham yesterday (or tomorrow) at Angelus, and what the people then talk about there". (E. g. ArM2/3/4 'Eyes of the Past' worked that way.)
This is worlds apart in usefulness from consulting the horoscope of the Sheriff of Nottingham for a day propitious to capture/depose/kill him, or from inducing a dream revealing something about the danger he poses to you.

//Historical "spells" don't imply the level of control over the results that the game mechanics do? Of course, this is the case. Maybe it has something to do with historical spells never working because magic isn't real?//
Ok, then we agree indeed about the above. I also share your guess about why the historical diviners are so cautious, and their promises so weak.

//My question is pretty basic: ... how do story guides treat these non-Hermetic attempts to predict the future?
It sounds like you don't have a problem allowing hedge magicians to predict the future in your campaign, and you seem to imply that magic can predict the future. If you're allowing hedge magicians to use magic to predict the future, then in theory it could be incorporated into Hermetic theory.//
Try to look at it this way.
A magus who cares to frequently work the kind of weak effects outlined above can - using basic ArM5 rules - just specialize his Artes Liberales in Astronomy and prophesy away by using astrology: it's that small a deal that he does not even need a Minor Breakthrough or Minor Virtue - or even the Gift - for it.
Incorporating astrology into Magic Theory is not an issue because an apprentice learns its basics already when learning Artes Liberales to write Latin, and long before he even knows what Hermetic magic is.
Indeed, astrology is already part of Magic Theory as a prerequisite: to provide Sympathetic Connections.
Of course none of these arguments implies that there are Hermetic spells - with their above outlined level of control - divining past or future. Such Hermetic divination is indeed prevented by the 'Limit of Time'.

Kind regards,

Berengar

//. . . the medieval practices divining the future described in them expect so unspecific results that - if one assumes they work in Mythic Europe - they are of very little importancce to the game world, a campaign, or to the caster.//

Well, if the crux of your argument is that historical "magic" was weak, which of course it had to be because it wasn't real, therefore its Mythic equivalent should be, then I disagree with your fundamental premise.

"Magic" or witchcraft rituals could alledgedly be used to determine very specific things: the sex of a child, the identity of a spouse, the victor in an upcoming battle, a traitor at court, the date of a person's death, etc... Surely, sometimes the prognosticator would hedge his or her bets with a vague prediction, but if the employer was looking for a specific answer, then you know he got one.

Now if you want to say that in your game the only thing predictable is a vague sense of when something would be auspicious or not that's an option. It's certainly not the only option. You're making a choice as a stroy guide to have the prediction ability of hedge magicians be weak. You don't seem to see it as a choice but more as the only possible way it could be. I disagree with your choice.

//Well, if the crux of your argument is that historical "magic" was weak, which of course it had to be because it wasn't real, therefore its Mythic equivalent should be, then I disagree with your fundamental premise.//

This premise just came from your initial question (http://forums.delphiforums.com/atlasgames/messages?msg=631.1):
//Limit of Time

What's everyone's opinion on this lesser limit?

Was this limitation imposed simply to allow for whodunnits and other mystery related stories? Or was it because it would make Imaginem to powerful of a form?

I am curious because if you look at historical "magic," one of the prime reasons for casting spells was to predict the future. Astrology and necromancy were both primarily used to prognosticate. How do people handle this in their games?

Hermetic magic is supposed to be the most powerful in Europe, but magi cannot see into the future or past. How can hedge magicians? Do you allow any hedge magicians to forecast the future? If not, are they just deluded or are they charlatans?//

So I told you, that historical "magic" was not the big thing, even going by the claims of its practitioners, that IMCs I handle it by simply allowing it, and that most magi in standard ArM5 know astrology, hence indeed are able to divine about future and past by this means, just like historical astrologists claimed to be.

In your question and subsequent posts you never posited a power level for the "Mythic equivalent" of astrology, natural magic and medieval folk magic - so I naturally assume you go by current ArM5 rules, and where these are missing default to historical facts and claims. If this is not the case and you wish to assume e. g. higher power, then state it.

No, I do not see ArM5 hedge magicians - currently only defined by their supernatural Virtues and Flaws - as charlatans, even if they have Visions. And I do not see them as powerful, either.

//"Magic" or witchcraft rituals could alledgedly be used to determine very specific things: the sex of a child, the identity of a spouse, the victor in an upcoming battle, a traitor at court, the date of a person's death, etc...//
You are aware that all these things, but the victor in the battle, can also be detected by Hermetic Magic - without violating the 'Limit of Time'? As for the victor in battle: there, as you also said, the medieval hedgie would definitely hedge ... his bets, and every SG hedge his campaign as well.

//You're making a choice as a stroy guide to have the prediction ability of hedge magicians be weak. You don't seem to see it as a choice but more as the only possible way it could be. I disagree with your choice.//
You just interpret me wrongly here.
I would indeed *like* to have ArM5 cunning folk and natural magicians quite a bit stronger - but better compatible with the rest of the rules than in ArM4. *But* I would of course not give such characters gamebreaking divinatory powers - hence certainly not an equivalent of InIm or InCo with the Limit of Time removed.

Kind regards,

Berengar

//You are aware that all these things . . . can also be detected by Hermetic Magic //the sex of a child, the identity of a spouse, a traitor at court, the date of a person's death//

Hermetic magic cannot tell the sex of a child before conception. I would make the argument that the sex of a child can't be discovered before quickening. If it can, please let me know how it can be done.

The identity of a spouse before marriage cannot be detected. How would that be detected? Maybe Intellego Mentem to find out who someone wants to marry, is that what you're assuming? There would be no guarantees that the proposed groom would actually get married to the bride without looking into the future. What if the groom to be dies the day before the wedding?

The eventual date a person will die is descernible by Hermetic Magic? Now you're just being ridiculous.

I don't know what your malfunction is, but this "debate" has devloved into pettiness. I guess you're making some more of your assumptions without stating what they are. It is, of course, natural to assume that when someone is giving examples of things that can be predicted that you assume the person is talking about things that you don't actually need to see into the future to know.

//so I naturally assume you go by current ArM5 rules, and where these are missing default to historical facts and claims. If this is not the case and you wish to assume e. g. higher power, then state it.//

Here's a tip. When someone asks a question and you make assumptions when answering it, it's a good idea to state the assumptions that you based your answer on first. If you want to come off sounding like a petulant child, it's a good idea to tell the person asking the question to state all of his assumptions first when he disagrees with the ones you made.

I don't know if you just have some overwhelming need to be "right" or what, but I was only asking for people's opinions. I might have agreed with your opinion if you weren't so fixiated on being right and proving me wrong.

"Kind Regards"

You wrote in http://forums.delphiforums.com/atlasgames/messages?msg=631.13: //"Magic" or witchcraft rituals could alledgedly be used to determine very specific things: the sex of a child, the identity of a spouse, the victor in an upcoming battle, a traitor at court, the date of a person's death, etc... //

//Hermetic magic cannot tell the sex of a child before conception.//
You are right here - but that was not what you stated or I responded to before.
//The eventual date a person will die is descernible by Hermetic Magic?//
No, but see above: there is a difference between "the date of a person's death" and "the eventual date that a person will die".

Please be on mailing lists sufficiently precise in your wording - both of questions and statements.
It is tedious not only for you, but also for those you communicate with if you repeatedly rephrase and restate your intent. It does not get any better if you respond badly to requests for clarification. And it looks extremely bad if you expect from those answering your requests to write out all their own assumptions about what you meant first.
After writing a first draft, step back, reread, reconsider, and if necessary rephrase before finally posting: other people might have even less time than you.

I skip the rest of your post for obvious reason. I tried - on limited time - to make sense of your questions and statements, and help to find the crucial issues behind them.

Kind regards,

Berengar