In fifth edition the spell wizard's boost is form specific. This means that in order to be able to boost every spell you'd need to have 10 versions of it (putting aside questions of level for the moment).

What would you say to a player in your game who wanted to create an invested device say an enchanted hat with the following three effects in it.

1 In Vi constant detect the form of any spell being cast (personal,sun,smell (the hat can "smell" the form))

2 In Vi detect when the wearer begins to cast wizards boost (personal,sun,touch (the hat can "feel" a wizard's boost being cast by its wearer))

3 Change the form of the wizard's boost to match the form of the nearest other spell being cast. (touch/voice, momentary,individual environmentally triggered by the other effects)

the form changing spell would naturally need to be twice the level of the wizards boost spell so it might not be practical to create this item but I see it as a possible for a gift from an older magus to a younger one.

Muto Vim magic on Muto Vim magic any issues with that?

What do you think about sense target intellego spells on enchanted devices?

What should the range of the form changing spell be? If the caster is wearing it, can the hat "touch" the spell being cast or does it need to be range voice (not that the hat can talk)?

I see two problems with this. Primarily, I don't think you could use the "sense" targets in this manner. To my understanding, the sense targets target an existing sense, providing magical enhancements to the existing sense, but do not grant the sense itself. Since a hat cannot "smell" or "feel", I don't think it is appropriate to grant the effect in this manner.

On the other hand, I would think that if you grant an item the ability to see or smell (with Intellego Imaginem) then you could "enhance" that sense with the subsequent effect.

The ultimate affect is a bit questionable to me, but I think it would be a matter of flavor for the SG to decide. I personally don't see the effect as simply being changing the form of the Wizard Boost (as the form in all 10 cases is sill Vim), and it isn't simply a matter of changing casting requisites, either.

I am not intimately familiar with the peculiarities of Muto Vim magic. Perhaps what you are suggesting should be allowed and is logical within the rules. Personally, I'd view it as an attempt to min-max and would disallow it.

"I see two problems with this. Primarily, I don't think you could use the "sense" targets in this manner. To my understanding, the sense targets target an existing sense, providing magical enhancements to the existing sense, but do not grant the sense itself. Since a hat cannot "smell" or "feel", I don't think it is appropriate to grant the effect in this manner.

On the other hand, I would think that if you grant an item the ability to see or smell (with Intellego Imaginem) then you could "enhance" that sense with the subsequent effect."

I was looking at this as akin to the linked trigger described on pages 98 and 99 of the main book. They provide an example of a mental command effect which is level 30 (base 15 + 1 magnetude for touch + 1 magnetude for concentration duration +5 levels to have the item maintain concentration).

If you do not use a sense target for the triggering effect how do you stat it out? The case of the mental command is easy "Target individual" range "touch". But if you want to trigger the spell to some other environmental factor should it just be free? Should "this spell will go off when ever someone in the vicinity casts a creo ignem spell" be just as straightforward as "sunrise/sunset" or "someone waves the wand and says abracadabra"?

One way to get around the issue is for the hat to use an effect to give the wearer magical senses, and use the lvl 30 mindereading effect to both trigger the muto vim and to determine what form the wizards boost should effect. Of course I posted more to spur discussion than because this was something that I had a charater wanting to do.

I happen to have a copy of the rule book with me today so I'll see about that wizard's boost changing spell The guidline that is appropriate is "significantly change a spell of less than the level +1 magnetude of this spell" raise the range to voice (2 magnetudes) and it could effect a wizard's boost (of up to one magnetude lower) cast by someone else. (The question is then does the caster need one of these spells or ten (one for each form).

It looks like David or the playtesters were thinking along similar lines as I was. Written in the Mu Vi spell guidelines is the following, "You may only put a muto vim effect into an item if it is to work on another spell in that item."

//If you do not use a sense target for the triggering effect how do you stat it out? The case of the mental command is easy "Target individual" range "touch". But if you want to trigger the spell to some other environmental factor should it just be free? Should "this spell will go off when ever someone in the vicinity casts a creo ignem spell" be just as straightforward as "sunrise/sunset" or "someone waves the wand and says abracadabra"?//

In line with the type of item and effect you have proposed, I believe the effect would HAVE to have a sense target. I just think you would first have to give it a sense to begin with, via Intellego Imaginem. I don't think you could claim it as an "environmental trigger". The guidelines for environmental triggers seem pretty specific, to me, as intending for them to be weather/astrological phenomenon.

Now, this is based solely on the fact that the device is automated in its fucntion, requiring no action on the magus's part. A similar effect could be done with a target of Individual, perhaps, if the caster has to "trigger" the effect himself and cause it to affect the casted spell (i.e. the target) directly. A less mobile application could possibly use a target of Room or Structure to sense magic taking place within, without having to resort to a sense.

//It looks like David or the playtesters were thinking along similar lines as I was. Written in the Mu Vi spell guidelines is the following, "You may only put a muto vim effect into an item if it is to work on another spell in that item."//

Ah, yes. I didn't recall that little restriction. I suppose it makes the whole question moot. Except that, any effect that can be placed into an device should be able to be created as a spell, and I wouldn't allow a spell of that nature to circumvent the need for 10 separate Wizard Boosts.

in 5e its clearly stated that MuVi effects in a device can only target other effects invested in the same device.

Also (Serf's Parma) 5e prohibits MuVi on a MuVi spell.

Senses in enchanted devices are a good idea, and very useful for Linked effects.

"In line with the type of item and effect you have proposed, I believe the effect would HAVE to have a sense target. I just think you would first have to give it a sense to begin with, via Intellego Imaginem. I don't think you could claim it as an "environmental trigger". The guidelines for environmental triggers seem pretty specific, to me, as intending for them to be weather/astrological phenomenon. "

Then by extension you would not allow a target hearing spell to be cast on a deaf person or target sight on a blind person?

//Then by extension you would not allow a target hearing spell to be cast on a deaf person or target sight on a blind person?//

I don't believe one has anything to do with the other.

I think you are arguing in terms of the effect of the spell you desire, rather than the mechanics of this as a target. Giving a hat the ability to "see" magic is not a problem. Doing it ONLY with a Target: Sense spell is. After all, can you cast a Target: Individual spell if there is no individual present? Can you cast a Target: Room spell where there is no room? No. So how can you cast a Target: Sense spell where there is no sense?

The Target: Sense allows a spell to magically affect the way a sense functions. It does not grant that sense where it does not exist. You can cast a Target: Sense spell on a blind or deaf individual, but he will receive no benefit from it. Targeting an individual's sight to allow him to see invisible people does no good if he can't see at all. To me this is no different than casting the spell on someone who has sight, but chooses to close his eyes. Does he continue to see invisible people? No. The spell only changes *what* you can see... not *whether* you can see.

A spell to restore sight is Creo Corpus with a target of Individual, not Intellego Imaginem with a target of Sight.

Now, if you use Creo Corpus to heal the affliction and restore sight or hearing, then the Target: Sense spell would work. Whether such healing is possible may come down to a discussion of essential nature. In the Order of Hermes supplement of - what was it, 3rd or 4th edition? - the magus Martin of Bonisagus suffered from a lame leg. As he was born with the affliction, it was part of his essential nature and could not be cured by Hermetic magic.

"The Target: Sense allows a spell to magically affect the way a sense functions. It does not grant that sense where it does not exist."

It was my impression that target sense spells granted magical senses rather than modifying existing senses. More akin to a creo spell with target individual when there is no individual present.

I'll check the book when I have a chance and remember to do so.

The text under the Magical senses target says "Intellego spells can grant magical senses to a person.... they have different targets depending on the kind of sense that the recipient gets"

It later says "Each magical sense target grants the recipient information through one of his senses"

No where does it discuss magical sense spells on an item. The first quote seems to agrgee with my interpretation the second quote agrees with yours.

A reasonable interpretation is that any magical sense granted needs to function through a previously existing sense.

fooey.

OK now that we've looked at the printed rules, I would posit that making magical senses availible to create linked triggers in enchanted items without first installing a Muto effect with an intellego requisite and the correct form to grant the item the sense to begin with, would be a good house rule that will both make the game simpler and provide item effects more in line with the amount of effort that it takes to instill them.

A byproductof this is that sense target intellego spells could grant magical senses to people who don't have the appropriate sense (e.g. "Shiver of the Lycanthrope" would still work for a character with advanced leprecy).

Am I missing some reason why your interpretation would steer me clear of problems or make the game more enjoyable?

//Am I missing some reason why your interpretation would steer me clear of problems or make the game more enjoyable?//

I have no idea. I'm not trying to steer you clear of anything or make your game any more or less enjoyable. You decide what makes your game enjoyable.

If you want to be able to grant magic senses in this manner, go for it. For that matter, if you want to be able to use a magic item to muto a Vim spell into its suitable form to boost it, go for that, too.

There are lots of things that are not allowed by Hermetic magic as defined by the rules that, if they were allowed, might make the game more enjoyable for some.

If it weren't for the loss of the Reach, Near, and Far ranges,I don't think that having to grant them "senses" would even be necessary. As it is, under 5th Ed., autonomous, independent magic devices are a bit harder to create.

"I'm not trying to steer you clear of anything or make your game any more or less enjoyable."

I did not meant to imply that you did. I just wondered if you saw something that I didn't.

I would suggest that if you are to alter the application of a rule, to make way for an effect you desire, you have to think further down the road to EVERY potential application of that rule mod.

For discussion, you decide Target: Sense spells can be cast on inanimate objects and grant the sense in question. You further decide that Target: Sense spells cast on a person/animal will grant the sense if the person/animal otherwise doesn't have it (blind, deaf, etc.).

Hermetic magic essentially draws upon the medieval paradigm in its application. I am no scholar of medieval philosophy or metaphysics, but I would imagine that the "understanding" of senses related them to the specific organs (eyes, ears, mouth, nose, etc.).

Now, your initial example involves a hat that can smell, but I am going to use sight, as it is a little easier to illustrate:

If you cast the "See Magic" spell on the hat, what mechanics does it actually use to see? Does it have a limited field of vision like a human would have? If so, what defines that field of vision? If not, does it then get a 360-degree spherical field of vision? If this is the case, then you have to consider the ramifications this impies in normal use on a person/animal. Would "See Magic" cast on a human then grant 360-degree vision? Could you cast Intellego Imaginem on a hand in order to see around corners?

More directly related to your example, if you cast "Smell Magic" on the hat, is it equivalent to the human sense of smell? What if you wanted the hat to have a sense of smell as keen as a dog's? A human's sense of smell, as the core book states, is not that great at direction sensing, but a dog's is. Would you simply throw on an Animal requisite? That's a start, perhaps, but wouldn't it also require Muto, as well? Then you still have to consider whether it is omni-directional smelling.

I have only implemented one magic item with senses in my saga. It was a sculpted bust of a woman (in the Roman manner, with the white featureless eyes) that could see. My application of this type of effect required a degree of sympathetic magic, in that the bust "saw" through its "eyes". I would not have allowed a features piece of rock to have been given the same ability. Now, of course, I used Intellego Imaginem (Individual), not Intellego Imaginem (Sight), but I would require similar considerations in either case.

The final thougt I have is whether the application of senses requires any degree of "intelligence". I don't know what the medieval paradigm on this would be, but the sense of sight involves more than simply having the ability to see. Humans don't simply just "see" everything in their field of vision. We have to "look" at things, focus on them, and "interpet" what we are seeing.

In my device above, I gave the bust the ability to see. But I did not consider that to be the end of the equation, so to speak, as I do not see where simply giving it the ability to see gave it the ability to interpet what it saw. The intent of the bust was to see when someone came near it, and then deliver a message. For this, I added a Intellego Corpus effect with a target of Sight. Now it had the ability to see, and interpret if what it saw was a person. It could then deliver it's final affect to speak and deliver the message (which was simply Creo Imaginem). I did rule that making its mouth move as it spoke would be considered a special affect, but had considered requiring an additional Rego Terram effect.

Sorry, I haven't been following this thread, but you might want to look at the 4th Edition automata rules.

Sounds like you want a magical device that has senses and can react intellegently to its enviroment. As an automata has senses, enhancing those senses with sense Target Intellego effects will follow the standard rules.

Imo it would be a fairly easy convertion to ArM5.

Regards

- David W