I know this question has no One True Answer.

Instead I am interested to see how people handle this
issue from saga to saga.

Back when I first encountered AM (2nd ed), the OoH was
a hihgly secretive organization, living far away from
the Mundanes, pretty much cut off from mortal society,
with very little in the way of "normal" interaction
with the rest of Mythic Europe. This point has become
quite a bit more vague in more recent editions of the
game. This, I believe, has led to a wide divergence
in takes on how the Order functions, how the Code of
Hermes is interpreted, and the basic nature of
Order-Mundane relations.

From the Hermetic Oath we read:

"I will not endanger the Order through my actions.
Nor will I interfere with the affairs of mundanes and
thereby bring ruin on my sodales."

Then under the interpretation of this section we read:

"This clause forbidding interference with mundanes is
probably the more controversial clause in the Code.
Covenants have to deal with mundanes repeatedly in
order to exist, and fortified dwellings containing
substatial numbers of warriors tend to draw the
attention of local nobles.
As a result, the second half of the sentence, 'thereby
bring ruin on my sodales,' is brought into most
debates. As long as dealings with mundanes do not
harm other magi, nor seem likely to cause such harm,
they are permitted. Many precedents, however, have
established that working as a court wizard is a
violation of the Code."

This places the Order more firmly into normal society,
but in an odd fashion. Undoubtably a given covenant
is going to need to import food for its survival,
unless the magi are feudal lords with a large number
of peasants. Equally they are going to need to import
raw materials at least to some extent.

But do locals know that the covenant is a place where
magic is done? If not, how do the magi keep this
secret? If they do not keep this secret, how do they
convince mundanes that they may not act as court
wizards? How do they deal with requests for magical
items?

Do they pass themselves off as scholars and, if so,
how do they stop others from wanting to study with
them?

How do people (locals, nobles) react to seeing women
as warriors at the covenant o, for that matter, with
having women in any position of authority, especially
if they are seen as being equal to or greater than
men?

In other words, how much does the Order, in YOUR saga,
have to cover its tracks?

Again, enquiring minds want to know... ;-)

Angus

My Saga's take on this is that mundanes, especially nobles, know there are wizards out there and have an idea of some of the things they can do. This is Mythic Europe, after all. So covenants do not necessarily have to keep secret the fact that they do magic. It is advisable not to go around casting lots of spells in public - one does not want to cause overt fear or panic.

Likewise, most people know that there is a difference between magic and diabolism, though it can be hard to tell where one ends and the other begins. The Church in my Saga does not hate magic itself but it is concerned that magic can easily lead to heresy or devil-worship. Again, it is better not to draw attention to one's magic, or an over-zealous bishop could start causing trouble.

What I do think would be wise to keep quiet is that all the wizard (Hermetic wizards, that is) belong to the same organization. It's one thing to have a house full of wizards here and a tower full of wizards there, it's quite another to have them all belonging to the same pan-European magical society. Let's put it this way: if I were the Pope and I learned about the Order of Hermes, I would see it as a threat to at least my own power and perhaps to the spiritual well-being of Europe. "Organization" could suggest "conspiracy" and that would make mundanes pretty nervous, in my opinion.

Incidentally, in my Saga the mundanes would have no reason to suspect there is a large Order connecting all the covenants. After all, the nobles' court wizards (hedge wizards, every one) don't know anything about some secret society of magicians, and they are learned in the ways of magic. Right?

Actually I think that the fifth edition core book nails this down more solidly than in any previous edition (not that they didn't leave room to allow for different interpretations). There is, in the setting chapter, I believe, some statements about educated and informed people knowing about the order but not perhaps about its extent.

Remember that redcaps were in first edition (even though there was no house Mercere yet) and they wore red caps and everyone knew better than to mess with folks wearing red caps because the magi would take care of their own.

Personally I like to have my order a little more public than secret. Educated nobility know what teh order is but as a whole they don't comprehend how powerful elder magi are.

Imo the original material adopted the commonplace idea of medieval times as very primative and chaotic.

This was and is a fine and valid play style. Many players and SG want to play in this popular conception of how things were long ago.

ArM has slowly become to value more historically accuracy and plausibility in its canon material. With the current expected standard of knowledge of medieval Europe expected of writers, they are aware that the art of spycraft was well developed. Is it plausible that in 400+ years of Order history, no grog or companion has spilled the beans on the Order to kings and bishops?

I don't personally like the concept of Magi-in-Black wiping memories and so forth to prevent the Order's secret status (like Vampires in VtM). Without such, I don't see how Europe's elite would still know nothing of the OoH. Ims the OoH is not general knowledge, but it is known.

Regards

- David W

Yes, given the age of the Order, along with its many covenants, grogs, companions (many of whom don't even live in the covenants), covenfolk, coupled with the necessity of highly specialized supplies, I feel there is little chance of keeping knowledge of the Order of Hermes quiet.

But then there is the problem that immediately follows -- how does the Order convince local authorities that they have rights to the lands they hold, especially if they do not swear fealty or give taxes? More importantly, what of newly formed covenants? Land grabs were frowned upon during the Middle Ages, especially in lands that, technically, someone else owns.

I think that the rise of universities would automatically set at the very least members of House Jerbiton into massive waves (...by the standards of the day) of correspondence with their fellow scholars -- would the Order have any greater access to ancient manuscripts than the rest of Europe? The ability to discuss philosophy and the Liberal Arts with other learned individuals would be too tempting for many magi to pass up, even if those individuals were not Gifted.

Just some more food for thought.

>>>But then there is the problem that immediately follows -- how does the Order convince local authorities that they have rights to the lands they hold,<<<

The same way everyone else shows they have lawful possession of their land. Why would you assume people who can conjure silver from thin air are squatters?

>>> especially if they do not swear fealty or give taxes? <<<

It is possible that many older covenants are allodial landholdings; free from rent or service. This was very rare most places in 13th century Europe, but perhaps not Mythic Europe.

If it is fuedal land there is an issue. Magi cannot swear fealty oaths as they require service, but a non-magus could. Assuming this wasn't acceptable, if the OoH was known than magi's refusal to swear fealty would also be known. If attacked a magus have the right to defend himself. It wouldn't take many examples for the message to get through. Imo in 13th century Europe well-advised nobles do not press the fealty point on known magi.

Noble would demand their rightful rents. Imo, as long as a covenant pays its rent and causes the noble no trouble, *in Mythic Europe* (note emphasise), the noble would be content.

Another (a little extreme) possibility would involve a powerful group of magi simply claiming land 'by the sword'. They declare their land allodial and invite disagreement. If you can hold land by the sword for long enough, its yours. This may have been quite common in the Founding era.

>>> More importantly, what of newly formed covenants? Land grabs were frowned upon during the Middle Ages, especially in lands that, technically, someone else owns. <<<

Which is why I imagine and have run new covenants having to obtain their land legally.

Of course, if the site is on wasteland it might not cost much at all. If it is truly isolated and wasteland, the cost is proportional. If someone wants to live there a pay him rent, a noble might simple let the magi take possession. This is a saga dependent thing.

Regards

- David W

How far an individual magus or covenant in mundane society can openly admit to or even display magic use depends IMCs ... both on the nature of the society he lives in, the particular witnesses and their relation to the magus.

IMCs the existence, extent and organization of the Order of Hermes, its Houses and Tribunals, the existence of a specific Hermetic Magic, and its limits are secrets to be maintained by Hermetic magi. Only a very few churchmen, scholars or nobles are selectively informed about such issues - usually for the purpose of negotiations approved by a Tribunal at least.

This implies that custodes or companions need very special backgrounds - like autocrat or scribe - to learn OoH Lore or Magic Theory.

It does of course not imply that Hermetic magi are always successful in hiding their secrets. IMCs Hermetic 'clean up' operations are needed and performed after dangerous leaks - and make good adventures.

The Order is helped a lot here by the slow flow and particularization of information in the middle ages, which makes piecing together individual bits of evidence distributed over different groups very difficult.

If e. g. a book on OoH Lore gets lost, no harm is done unless it finds its way to a cleric who reads it, guesses its importance and then sends it up the right channels. All this takes time, giving the unlucky covenant losing the book time to retrieve or destroy it.

If some technical information like a limit of magic leaked out, it could only be understood by a very few people: before these are contacted, the importance of the information cannot even be estimated - so there is a solid chance the information just gets lost or utterly distorted before.
A good historical example is the building of trébuchets by specialized craftsmen. When there was no continuous need for these experts any more, the knowledge how to make trébuchets was so completely lost, that their reconstructions in the books of Renaissance technicians are all flawed and practically useless.

Still, something always leaks through - the less technical, the easier. I especially once had an Benedictine abbot who at the same time was a local spy-master for Federico II display a lot of information about individual covenants and their interworking. So Federico II, his collaborators and spy-masters certainly assumed a larger organization of magi. Of course there were no clean-up attempts against them, and they also were wise enough to keep their knowledge for their own political use.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Organisations are commonplace in Medieval Europe; it's only secret organisations that suggest conspiracy. If I were the Pope and I learned about the Order of Hermes, I'd be extremely relieved that there was someone keeping those dangerous sorcerors under control. I'd be even more pleased when I learned that its members are forbidden on pain of death from intefering with my activities - whereas the Church has no injunction against meddling in the affairs of wizards.

Even if the Order didn't intentionally hobble itself, it couldn't possibly be a fair struggle. At most, the Order might muster a hundred politically adept representatives, including magi, companions and allies. The Church has many times that number in every kingdom. What's more, very few clergy are detested by everyone they meet, and almost all are sane. Provided it doesn't goad the magi into all-out war, the Church is quite safe.

Turning with some reluctance to the actual evidence... According to the 5th Edition, House Jerbiton made overtures to Charlemagne soon after the Order was founded. The implication is that they did so as representatives of the Order. Judging by the plot hooks in the Mythic Europe chapter, some clergy and nobles are well-informed about magi, and some are not. Most covenants are known to the locals as wizards' lairs, but some conceal their nature (or even their existence).

So IMO, although everyone has heard of wizards, the Order of Hermes is not common knowledge. A learned scholar will know typically know the name of the Order and have an idea of its most important rules. People such as a relative of a magus, a failed apprentice, a former grog, the priest of a covenant's parish, etc. will also be fairly familiar with the Order. But if you really need to know whether a maga is allowed to do something, the best method is to ask her.

It's almost funny, for in terms of secret societies, The Order of Hermes is sort of disappointing.

Let's say a influencial Priest discovers a society of wizards, and having access to resources sends spies to infiltrate "The Order".

As AreBrevis detailed, not only would these spies discover a code of conduct that prohibts overt influence on mundane affairs, it would discover an organization that has no purpose or focus outside of not killing one and other.

If this Priest feared "The Order" was trying to take over the world, make men heathens, or exploit people in some other way, they would find no such goal. The only 'goals' of the Order are, don't kill each other, stay out of trouble.

It is possible that a covenant or a mystery cult could be confused as representing the Order, and their goals could bring doom to Magi. Yet given time, a spy would learn the truth, which is Order is hardly an organization at all. It's little more than a common language of magic and a truce among the users of this 'language'.

Chuck

> Which is why I imagine and have run new covenants having to obtain their land legally.

Or in our case bribing city clerks and notaries and forging land titles so as to claim ownership of an estate, the last owner of which threw himself from a tower while... entertaining... the magi.

Putting a history pedant hat own.

I don't know how historic the sort of land registory you seem to be suggesting is (in whatever part of ME you were)...

Not that that truly matters.

Regards

- David W

From previous questions of Mark Lawford you can conclude that his campaign is based around an Italian Commune, roughly in standard ArM time: early 13th century.

Nearly everywhere in Italy, from Lombardy to Sicily, municipal notaries (tabellii) are common figures already in the early 12th century, and municipal archives to deposit their documents go back at least as far.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Thankyou for the input.

Yes, our saga is set in Verona against a backdrop of landed nobles losing/selling their land to the city and moving from traditional role of landlord and protector to merchant/city politico etc.

Those independent estates that are still around are in an untenable position thanks to the power of the city not half a day away.

In our specific case, the magi discovered a magical spring and which fed a stream leading down and under a castle near the shores of Lake Garda. This was the heart of the Selvaggio estate.

Renzo Selvaggio had been left isolated and broken by the ministrations of a Demon posing as a loyal friar and confessor (of course, all the while responsible for his once-loyal servants conspiring against him).

On the night the magi arrived, fearing that he might be discovered, the Demon persuaded Renzo that these were enemies come to take his castle and that the only noble thing to do was to end his own life rather than fall at the hands of these criminals.

Poor Renzo didn't have a clue and threw himself from the tower. The Demon relished the damnation that Renzo had unleashed upon his own soul and the magi suddenly found themselves in a castle with no known living legal owner.

Rather than chance that Verona might just annex the land or a legal claim might surface, one of the magi suddenly revealed a stunning family resemblance (Imaginem) while another ensured that this unheard of relative was legally recognised as owning the land.

Historically accurate? Possibly not. Plausible? For us? Yes.

//Historically accurate?//

To pull it off, at least several influential contacts in Verona, a few good fake-documents and a steady hand with greedy neighbours would be needed.
But the Hauteville in Puglia, Calabria and Sicily succeeded in 'inheriting' many fiefs by force or alliance, without being related to the former holders. So such successions are certainly not a priori unhistorical.

Kind regards,

Berengar

> a steady hand with greedy neighbours would be needed

Well, they haven't had much trouble... yet