Look up "Charged Devices" in the enchantments section.

It explains how many charges you get, and that the device can take any form you like - including one object per charge. Potions, oils, candles, parchment (magic scrolls), bandages, arrows, ... all of these are possible.

Be careful to remind people if thequestion of Charged Devices is 4th Ed or 5th Ed, as the rules for Charges changed a lot between versions.

(I recommend getting a copy of 5th Ed - it is *much* clearer and easier to work with!)

?eh?

in what context are you asking "what potions have been created?"

[First off - there is (as usual in ArM) *nothing* special about liquid, drinkable, charged items. The physical form of a charged device is not really relevant - there is no practical difference between making a 10 charge wand, a liquid with 10 "gulps", or 10 pieces of parchment with magic words on (or which you burn to trigger, or whatever).
Never, ever, make the assumption that the form of an Ars Magica enchanted deivce is "special" in the way DND items are particular. In DND a Potion is very different from a Wand - indeed a Ring, a Wand and a Staff are very different; in ArM this is simply not so!
READ the book!]

If you mean - have published ArM books contained potions... generally "no".

In our own running saga, throughout 4th Ed, we never made any charged devices, as they were not a good bargain in 4e.
Now we are running 5th Ed, and charged devices no longer cost Vis, and you get a decent number of charges ... we now have enough Vis to keep our enchanter busy on small projects for covenant service, and he has hsi own wacky ideas (gargoyles!) for his own time....

How about a Potion of Potion Inventing?

It allows you to invent any Potion using any Arts that the magus knows.

And a Potion of Lab Substitution , it allows you to invent Potions w/o a Lab but it must be created in a Lab specially dedicated to Potions first.

but you are still not detailing any device effects you are proposing.

I lose count of the number of times I have pointed out: it is not enough to say "here is a cool name for a magical whizzery which I like, what do you think of it".
The general reaction of the Ars Magica community is "What do I think? Nothing.. it's not got anything in it."

If instead you say:

How about a Ring which unleashes fiery darts (+10 damage) to Near Range.
It is (in 4th Ed) Creo Ignem 15, Near/Mom/Small, based on CrIg 10, with +5 levels for 24 uses/day.

People will say, ah! yes - I understand that... how about this tweak...

As for the form of the device, well as I pointed out as an example, a Ruby gives a +6 bonus for fiery effects, but is not vital to the fiery dart effect.
One magus might make it with a gold ring, another as a wand or staff.

Yes, if your magus writes out a Lab text, detailing how they made the device, then the lab text (a detailed recipe for a particular design of device) does include shape and material.

For more examples, browse to
http://www.quantal.demon.co.uk/saga/library/devices.html

where you will find a whole series of devices from our saga... in detail.

What about this potion? Potion of Bad Foreign Musical

When druk, the druker sings badly in a foregn langage as subtitles appear at their feet translateing the bad lyrics of the song.

Intelugo Muto Corpuschristimentallegum
Lvl 7.34
Target, drinker
Ranger, Audiance
Duration, three songs.

I could make these up all day! Now I understand why AbrahamRay keeps posting these. Now if only there was a point for these spellz.

Chuck

potion of the muse :
(Greek Mythology) Any of the nine daughters of Mnemosyne and Zeus, each of whom presided over a different art or science.

when drunk
why cant this work on anyone but drunks?

it gives the drinker the ablity to sing any tune in key
what about the other 08 muse effects?

side effects include perfect pitch
does this mean you can throw things really well?

& ears ringing
Ears cant ring , thats what bells do , so Muto

target is the drinker
range-voice
duration-korah(about 15 minuites)

Min·u·it (mny-t) also Min·ne·wit (--wt), Peter 1580-1638.
Dutch colonial administrator who purchased Manhattan from the Wappinger for trade goods legendarily valued at $24

Are you telling us duration is based on someone who hasnt been born yet?

I've tried sarcasm rather than reason, and I should kick myself for doing this because so many before me have already tried. Having said this, I will ask, Have you read the books?

Hermetic magic is a formulaic system. It is a series of rotes that produce an affect. I've read that you don't have 5th ed, that's ok. The free 4th edition and earlier editions all make it clear that Hermetic magic is made up of clear and distinct aspects.

One of these aspects is "Duration", or length of time. Following the premise that Hermetic Magic is formulaic, these lengths of time are standardized. That is, everytime you cast the spell, you get the same amount of time. Having said this, one can not have a "proximite" time unless it is the rare spell that uses the duration of special.

AbRay, READ THE BOOKS.

Below is a simple but effective system that works every time.

List affect. Detail Base Level, Tech and Form.
List modified Range
List modified Duration
List modified Target

That's it!

If you can do this, technically there isn't any reason for you to use this board. You can figure it out on your own. All you have to do is READ! From the history of the posts, doesn't it seem that we are more interested in grey areas, in interpretations, in anything more interesting that rags that scrub floors by themselves or trying to make D@D spells fit in Ars? Read the discussion on Daemonic Beasitary, or the material on Shadows in Ars, read the material concerning the structure of the Order. These recieved posts quickly because they detailed interesting material.

I don't want to scare you away from Ars, but I'd would like you to bring your 'A' game to the table. If you want us to invest our time into answering your questions, please invest a little more time in the questions your asking.

Chuck

Doesnt help im afraid.
Here in Down-Under Land we have Vegemite , Marmite and Promite but have never seen Proximite.

How does Music have Pitch?
Ships have Pitch (where it is used for caulking).

caulk·ing (kôkng)
n.
A usually impermeable substance used for caulking. Also called caulking compound.

So if the music has Perfect Pitch it is Totally Impermeable and we wouldnt be able to hear it.

If my ears hear a ringing sound for about 1 hour , why dont i just answer the Ringing? This usually makes it stop i have found , but im not sure this is in Paradigm for Ars Magica.

"Doesnt help im afraid.
Here in Down-Under Land we have Vegemite , Marmite and Promite but have never seen Proximite."

Proximite was an American product, produced during the latter part of the 20th century. It was a frothing byproduct from Senator William Proxmire, gathered up (not unlike vis) during speeches on the Senate Floor. Being a byproduct from a Senator, it should (barely) fall under Corpus for magical forms in case it needed to be manipulated.

you may have thought you were trying to go by the book, but what you wrote did not show that. You wrote:

>potion of the muse

ok but we've said many times that the title and form don't really matter

>when drunk it gives the drinker the ablity to sing any tune in key
>side effects include perfect pitch & ears ringing

how does it let you sing any tune in key? What Technique(s) and Form(s) does it use, and which spell guideline is it based on? You *have* to include this to make anything useful.
Every Ars Magica hermetic spell or device effect uses the Magical Arts, and has a Level. Without that, it's just not Ars Magica...

Why the side-effects? What is there in the magical effects (as in the 4e Ars Magica book) that suggests your spell has these side effects?
(I could suggest "you used the Experimentation rules" but (a) that's unlikely and (b) don't do that until you understand the simpler rules!)

>target is the drinker
>range-voice

that's wrong. If the Target is the drinker, they are (by definition) touching the potion (pill, scroll, candle, wand,...) so Range: Touch is all that is needed.
(You are not affecting the listeners, only the single)

>duration-korah(about 15 minuites)

why a non-standard Duration? There is only rarely a reason to do so, and it normally takes *extra* levels to impose a non-standard duration (or range, or target) on a spell.
Even when you do, you need to state what base level you are using to derive the non-standard Duration. For example:
Duration: Korah (=Sun)

The standard durations, for all magic, are Diameter (2 mins), Sun ('til next sun-rise or -set), or Concentration. Conc. works well for this sort of thing, as spells that are designed to help some specific action are not distracted by *that* action - just by other actions.
Thus, a Conc. duration singing-spell would let you sing for quite a while, typically 15-30 mins with no other distraction, but if you stop or try to do something else, the spell ends.

In light of the ongoing responses , i propose an extra Major Virtue and Major Flaw (both Hermetic).

MHV : Enlightened Master
You are capable of teaching anyone with the Gift the Hermetic Arts.

When Opening Arts for anyone with non-Hermetic Supernatural Abilities you may subtract your Score in Vim from the Total Score the Apprentice has in non-Hermetic Supernatural Abilities before generating your Intellego Vim Lab Total.

If the Apprentice has no non-Hermetic Supernatural Abilities they gain an extra , free , Minor Hermetic Virtue from your teaching.
This does not allow you to have more than one Magical Focus however.

Above all you are patient and insightful in all matters related to teaching the Hermetic Arts.

MHF : The Broken Gift
You are well-nigh incapable of learning the Hermetic Arts.

Any Parens who opens the Arts for you must have a Score of at least 10 in all the Arts , or you will gain a Deficiency (see page 53) in those Arts in which the Score is less than 10.

You may not take any Major Supernatural Virtues unless you are a member of House Ex Miscellanea and use the House Option to take one.
Any Minor Supernatural abilities you have count as Major for purposes of having the Arts opened for you.

You automatically gain an extra Minor Hermetic Flaw after the Arts are opened for you.This is in addition to any other flaws you may have.

>Below is a simple but effective system that works every time.

>List affect. Detail Base Level, Tech and Form.
>List modified Range
>List modified Duration
>List modified Target

>That's it!

Just quoting from Tuura as to what you need to do.

If you have a spell thats close , type it in giving the above information.
Then state the changes you want to make to that spell.
Or state the effects you want that are similar to that spell.

Why use a duration out of 'Blood&Sand'? Everyone might not have access to it.

Again , why Mentem?
Is this part of the 'Create Beautiful Voice' spell?

>>it does the effect by way of a muto mentum effect(17)<<
This would let you make the target think that they could sing. Pretty sure it would not actually make them sing any better unless they were deliberately off key. And what the hell is the (17) for? Page 17?

>>closest spell that I can think of is create beutiful voice<<
Which is what technique and form? Muto Imaginoem would be closest.

>>range is voice because it effects other people,so I thought that it would make sense to make the range voice<<
The range is based on the relationship between the caster and the target. If the target is the singer, and the mage can touch him, you could make it touch. Otherwise voice might be best to be able to target a singer who is a ways away.

>>duration is korah because I thought that it was in blood & sand.<<
You never mentioned Blood and Sand, and you are so far from understanding the game in almost any respect that I would suggest leaving sourcebooks in the closet until you gain a better handle on the core rules.

>>does that help?<<
it is a step in the right direction.

I'm constantly torn between offering you meaningless jokes to compliment your meaningless spell descriptions or trying to help you.

I still think the best medicine for you is, "READ THE BOOKS". You need to really help yourself. I've stated that you need to establish an affect, and determine a base level for this effect. Then you need to list:
Modified Range
Modified Target
Modified Duration

If you can do this, you can build a spell and won't need our help. What we can do is tell you if your base level is correct and list problems you may encounter based on the parameters of the spell. Now I've said this before, I was flattered when some one cut and paste my post, which means I've said it again. This is my third time telling you. READ THE BOOKS, FOLLOW THE FORMULA FOR SPELL CONSTRUCTION. Others, NUMEROUS OTHERS have all told you the SAME THING.

Having said this you haven't done that. Why?
Because my job offers me time, I will waste it working on trying make you 'get' how to build a spell. Since simple telling you the forumla isn't working, I'm actually going to build your spell and hopefully, HOPEFULLY, you will learn through example. But KNOW THIS MY YOUNG PADAWAN, if you don't submit your next proposal in proper spell form, I will offer you NO AID!!!!

Let's get started!

First, there are numerous ways one could make a spell that allows the caster to sing well. I'm not going to call it 'perfect pitch' I'm calling the affect 'sing well'.

I do not think that Muto Mentem is the best choice, but you chose that Tech and Form so fine, lets use Muto Mentem.

Ready?

Spell Affect: "Sing Well"
Tech and Form: Muto Mentem.

What this means is your changing a persons mind. Your not actually singing well, nor are you changing what people hear. You are changing their *Memory* of the event.

If you wanted them to like the music *as they heard it* you would need to use CREO Mentem, because this would *create* "a thought or emotion into anothers mind" But you chose Muto Mentem, so your not creating a thought, your changing a memory.

So can you understand this? Muto Mentem will allow people to *remember* that you sang well, but while you actually singing you sing normally and if it sucks they hear that it sucks. They will remember that your performance was well though in fact it was not.

Ready?

Spell affect: "Sing Well"
Tech and Form: Muto Mentem

Base Level: ???

Before I determine base level I want to say I'm using 4th edition. I'm using 4th edition because that's what you own. 5th edition is much easier and I encourage you to get (IF YOU READ IT), but we'll use 4th, simply so you can look this stuff up (READ IT) and dare I hope, understand it.

Base Level: Muto Mentem: 5 says, "Make a minor change in a person's memory of an event
Muto Mentem: 10 says, Make a major change to a person's memory of an event.

So how bad is your singing? Lets assume you suck. You suck a lot. This sort of conservative assumuption increases the difficulty of the spell, but it reduces the number of critics your final spell will have. I think you should always be conservative in determining a spell base level.

Thus Muto Mentem: 10, Make a major change to a person's memory of an event.

Under the old rules Muto Mentem had a Range: Eye Duration: Sun Target: Individual

This means you need to make eye contact. It lasts till the sun rises/sets. It affects one person.

So what do you want to do?

I think this is a silly power so I again would go conservative, but I suspect you want something absurd. Hell, let's do both!

Conservative Version:
Spell Affect: "Sing Well"
Tech Form: Muto Mentem
Base Level: 10, Make a major change to a persons memory of an event
R: Eye
T: Ind
Dur:Sun

My conservative spell suggestions are
Range: Sight Any one who READS will know that this adds 20 levels to the spell.
Target: Group Any one who READS will know that this adds 5 levels to the spell.
Duration: Sun is just fine. People will remember that you sang well until the sun next rises or set. Seriously, how long do you really need people to remember that you sang well???

Thus
Range: Sight (+20)
Target: Group (+5)
Duration: Sun (+0)

The conservative spell then reads
Spell Affect: "Sing Well"
Muto Mentem
Base: 10
Range: Sight (+20)
Target: Group (+5)
Duration:Sun (+0)
Spell Level
Muto Mentem: 35

Wow, sure doesn't seem worth it to me. Actually I think it's kind of sucky spell given the level, but to each his own right? If you had 5th edition you could use Voice, but we won't talk about that because you don't have 5th edition! If you weren't a bad singer you might be able to justify Base Level of 5, that would make this a mere 30th lvl spell. Still crappy to me, but this is your spell, not mine. Happy?

Well you didn't want to make a crappy spell, and this is 4th edition so why settle for a crappy spell, when you can make a great spell!

Let's say you wanted to perform in an ampitheater and be remembered for all time as a great singer. That's easy! Simply modify the parameters of the spell!

Range of Sight is still good, everybody you see certainly will cover an audiance (+20)

Duration ought to Permanent, you want them to remember forever and ever that you are an awesome singer, right? Permanent adds +20 lvls and makes it a Ritual.

Target: Auditorium sounds like Boundary to me, so that's another +15 lvls.

So now we have a spell that Rocks! Everybody that hears in an auditorium will forever and ever remember your sweet voice!

Over-Kill Version
Spell Affect: Sing Well
Tech Form: Muto Mentem
Base Level: 10
R: Sight (+20)
T: Boundary (+15)
D: Permanent (+20)
RITUAL SPELL
Spell Level: 65

So with a little over 3 hours of preparation and 13 pawns of vis, you can make everyone in an auditorium a fan for life! Oh yeah, any magus can try to resist the spell, but who cares! If they fail they'll think your a great singer! Yipee!

Oh yeah, and if my old school math is wrong PLEASE someone correct me, the last thing I want to do is teach AbrahamRay more bad habits.

So remember this AbRay, You need to list Spell Affect, Base Level, and modified Range, Target, and Duration or NO MORE HELP!

Enjoy the spell my young Padawan, if your character takes the time to make it I'll be the first in line to come under your spell.

Chuck

Ok my young padawan, if your really trying to follow the book I'll believe you. If your time on the internet is limited, I'll believe you. I will suggest that prior to using that limited time to ask us vauge questions that seem to quickly earn our ire, you take pen and paper and write everything out before hand. Working with pen and paper will help you learn the system.

Then when you do have internet access, you don't need to sit there and think it through, the material is done, you only need type it out and get it out for us to comment and critique.

If you follow the formula:

Spell Affect
Tech/Form
Base Level
Modified Range, Target, and Duration

I will be happy to help you in any way I can.

Chuck

Enjoy the 4th and I... (gulp) look forward to your properly explained spell descriptions.

///thanks,I will try to do as you say.///

///spel effect change coal into diamonds
form/effect muto terrum(to change coal into diamonds)
base level 45
range touch
target coal in gloved hand
duration permanent
what do you guys think?///

Tried and failed.

you are still not trying, or are typing so badly we can't read what you intended and you did not read what you typed but just sent it anyway.

"closest spell..." if you are quoting similar spells, *DO SO*. That is, quote the actual spell name, TeFo and level. Even better, quote the book and page ref. too...

level 17 is rubbish or an uncorrected error.
There are no level-17 guidelines - all guidelines are multiples of 5 (apart from very small spells with GL 1..4). All spells have a design level of multiples of 5, apart from very small spells, and spells where the design calls for a level-vs-level or level-vs-Might comparison where it may be useful to add a partial spell magnitude.
Thus, anytime anyone reads a spell level suggestion and it is not 1,2,3,4 or a multiple of 5, they will suspect an error unless the spell design shows why a partial level is used.

Muto Mentem can either bend your own mind (a single individual) or the mind of others, to make them believe what they did not believe before, or to bend their mind in other ways.
(Note, in 5e, much of the 4e MuMe effects become CrMe or ReMe - 5e Me is for unnatural things like "make their mind into the mind of a Frog" or "animate one's mind as a bird so it flys away")

Muto never creates anything - it *changes*. "Creating" a beautiful voice is CrCo (improve the body) or CrIm (improve the sounds)

MuMe can make the caster think their own singing is wonderful, or bend the minds of others so they are fooled into thinking it's good; it cannot make the voice itself be wonderful.

To affect the minds of others, you not only need Voice range (a 5e range, note! There is no Voice range in 4e - 4e uses "Near"), but you need a Group Target. Individual will make exactly *one* person think you sing well, no matter what the range.
Group will make a group (gathered when you cast the spell) think you sing well.
There is no standard effect which will make anyone walking into range change their mind to believe you sing well.
Note also that a 4e Group is limited to "about a dozen people or things", while a 5e Group is limited to "10 times an Individual". In 5e you can design spells to affect bigger groups, but not in 4e.

You may (though it is unlikely!) be thinking of discussions of Voice Target, new in 5e. Do not do so, as Voice Target (actually "Hearing", not Voice!) is for "grant sense" spells only... not available for general spells, spells like this.

You would be better with:
CrCo - improve own body's voice (but no skill, no new words)
personal, <duration>, ind
CrIm - improve own sound quality (but no skill, no new words)
touch, <duration>, ind (touch 'cos your sounds are outside you)
CrMe - grant knowledge - how to sing better
personal, <duration>, ind

dunno what levels 'cos books are at home.

As for Duration category - for goodness sake - you have no idea how to use the core book - avoid *ALL* the supplements until you at least get the hang of the simpler parts of the main book! Ignore Blood & Sand - or write separate, explicit posts to discuss it... don't stir in random ingredients for other books.

it's "TERRAM" not "TERRUM" - check your typing before posting! (Use the preview and revise buttons, and *read* what you just typed!)

Why level 45? - that's a huge starting level!
(RTFM!)

> target coal in gloved hand
usual rubbish again... Target means "Individual" or "Group"... Ind is one lump; Group would be "several lumps".
(RTFM!)

What on earth have "gloves" got to do with spell design?

> duration permanent
that either means a Ritual Spell, or a vis-boosted spell. Which? (RTFM!)

you left out the calculations of final level

> what do you guys think?

read some more...

Ok, young padawan. If you READ the prior posts, you'll know that you've made several mistakes. However I said I would help you if you followed the formula. You did so, so I'll help.

Spelling aside, you listed base level, but you wrote the final level. List Base Level at the top of the spell, and FINAL Level at the bottom of the spell.

Target: "Coal in gloved hand" may be something I can understand but it is not an established Ars Magica Target. These are the little things that irritate your peers because it suggests that your either making things up, or just have absolute no grasp of the rules. Always, ALWAYS, list established parameters from the core book. Do not try to make up spell parameters or use any of the supplements. By parameters, I'm talking about Range, Touch, and Duration. Your still with me, right?

So lets look at your spell again:

Spell Effect: Change Coal to Diamonds

Ars4 Muto Terram guidelines list 10: Change Dirt so that is slightly unnatural. Change dirt into a liquid or gas. Change dirt to stone, or vice versa.

I believe the final description, 'change dirt to a stone' is what we are looking for. This description is essentially saying that one takes something and makes it one grade 'better'.

That is dirt becomes stone.

Yet we aren't working with dirt and we don't want normal stone. If you look at the Guidelines you'll see that it says, "...add one level to change stone. To change metal or gemstone, add two levels..."

Look at the spell guidelines, it says, Lvl 10: "Change dirt to stone or vice versa."

In order to affect stone you must add one magnitude or +5

Spell Effect: Change coal (stone) to diamond (gemstone)
Should be Lvl 10 (dirt to stone) +5 (stone to gemstone)=15

Spell Effect: Change coal to diamond
Base Level 15

Now the parameters of the spell:

Range: Reach
You wanted Touch (-5)

Target: Small
You wanted, "coal in gloved hand." That sounds like small so lets leave it alone.

Duration: Sun
You wanted Permanent, that adds +20. Furthermore, anything that is permanent must be a Ritual because the duration exceeds one month.

Padawan, in Ars5 (an award winning game that you ought to buy) does not have Permanent, but we are using Ars4 to so you can READ and LEARN the basic system.

Let's add it up:
Spell Affect: Change coal to Diamond
Muto Terram
Base Level:15 (10+5)
R:Touch (-5)
Target Small (+0)
Duration (+20 Ritual)
Final Lvl:30 Ritual

The item is forever magical. It can be dispelled.

Now remember how I said one ought to be conservative? A conservative GM might argue that in order to change something into a gemstone, one must be able to affect a gemstone. This would add an additional magnitude to the spell. I won't provide my opinon at all on that matter, I simply point it out that possible arguement. So a conservative version of the spell would add an additional magnitude. Such a thing would eliminate nearly all critics. Therefore, the conservative version is Muto Terram LVL 35 Ritual, not 30.

Padawan, you need to read. You need to write out your spells with pen and paper, before you post them on the web. You need to use listed parameters and not things that are close. To date, your still wrong, but you are getting closer. Spell construction is like becoming a wizard, it requires time, reading, practice, and a certain level of insight.

Now stir these pots and mop the floor!

Chuck

AbRay, one of the earlier posts mentioned vis boosted parameters. I have not discussed these and will not. You need to master basic construction before we venture into such options. Furthermore, Ars5 has removed vis boosting from the core book. I've read that it is reintroduced in supplemental material but as I've said, your not allowed to use supplements. As far as your training is concerned, there is no such thing as Vis Boosting. When you've mastered basic spell construction, only then will we venture into that mystery.

Now young padaway, stir the pots, wash the lab equiptment, and write up (with Pen and paper first) a properly designed spell for us to critique.

Chuck

Padawan, I told I would help you but I will not write out every spell you submit.

First, Ars Magica spell construction is based on magnitudes which are made up 5 spell levels. That means every spell should be based on 5 and multiples of that number.

If you are unable to say add 5 and 5, or add 5 to 15, then I can not help you anymore. Your excuse that you have poor math skills means you are incapable of addition, which means this is a game you shouldn't play, or you are to lazy to practice addition which again means you shouldn't play this game. I will not accept that arguement on your part. You must do your own math from now on or I can not continue to help you.

As I said, you need to use the book, READ the book, then use the spell construction format I showed you.

If you want the mythic equivelent of X-Ray vision you are on the correct path, it would be Intellego plus all the Forms you are interested in looking 'through'.

The base level would be equivelent to the most difficult Form one wishes to look through. With this bit of information, I suggest you go back to the books and look through the various Intellego Form sections. Determine which is the most difficult, then use this as your base level. I will help you build this spell, but you must tell me the correct base level first. I do not think anyone at this forum should tell AbRay the base level. You need to start helping yourself. Your in school now, correct spell construction is the course. Grab your book, the answer is inside. When you have it, put it on line and I'll help you complete this assignment.

Chuck

>basic effect:intelgo corpus(arum,terram,ect. ect.)

Latin is definitely not your thing, is it?

AbRay I've taken you as my Padawan learner and I will not accept 'stumped' as an answer! If you were here I'd roll that free PDF rule book up and smack you on the nose.

I told you want to do! Look at the Intellego plus evey Form your interested in Spell guidelines. Look at all of them and determine which one is the most difficult. This will be the base level of your spell.

If you still don't understand me then I have an exercise for you.

Get pen a paper. Write down all the Intellego plus Form Guidelines. Read them. *GUESS* which you think best describes the ability to look through the Form. Submit that one as your base level. If your right, I'll tell you why. If your wrong I'll tell you why. However I will not make this spell for you. Your freebee's are over. Your in school now! Hit the books, before they hit you. I want an answer ASAP!

Chuck, your irritated Tytalus Padawan Teacher ;)

the Plus or Minus 1 adjustments and MAGNITUDE adjustments.
Spell Magnitude is (spell level divided by 5, rounded up)

Allowing for small spells, the list of standard spell levels runs:
1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50, ...
Adding or subtracting a Magnitude (to adjust range, duration or target) moves one step up or down this list.
The lowest possible level is 1.

So to change a 4e spell which is Level 35 Near, Mom, Ind (Ball of Abysmal Flame) to a Touch, Mom, Group, you
reduce Near to Touch (Near, Reach, Touch) subtract 2 Magnitudes, so spell drops from L35 to L25
to increase Target from Ind to Group add 1 Magnitude, so spell rises from 25 to 30.
Final level is 30.

Clear?

if the spell level is already 5 or more, then adding +1 Mag adds FIVE levels to the spell; if 10 or more then subtracting -1 Mag subtracts -5 levels from the spell. Magnitude adjustments change in steps of +/-1 below 5.

(It is possible to design spells of intermediate level, eg level 11,12,13,14 but these are all the same Magnitude as a Level 15 spell. It's best to ignore such spells until you understand the rest of the system)

Virtual smack!

You know the rules AbRay!

There is a form I gave you. You didn't use it. Eye balls is not a Target! You know that!

Write this up proper!

chuck

Oh.......My........God!

His post was missing the near-ever present "Tell me what you think."

And he was sooooo close. So close.

I'm tempted to not even answer but here goes.

Formulaic magic has the word "formula" as it's base. You know what a formula is? It is a set method by which something is done.

For instance, following instructions to make a cake. The reciept is a formula. You add water, flour, ect. Then you bake it for X minutes. To make the cake, you follow the formula exactly. Variations lead to different things, typically crappy goo, or burnt bread.

The Hermetic System has set series of parameters. Personal, touch, ect....

In the Hermetic system there are NO ALTERNATIVES.

ALTERNATIVES to the stand parameters requires knowledge of a Mystery or original research to create and incorporate these alternative parameters into the Hermetic system. Until you can master the core rules these alternatives should not be used.

Which brings me back to a clear answer, which is NO!

The Hermetic system does not allow for alternative targets such as eyeball.

If you insist on making a target such as eyeball and you want to do it by the book, you will need to engage in original research. I will not discuss this with you, because you have yet to make a successful basic spell. Furthermore, if you want to ignore original research and simply make stuff up, there is no point in discussing it with us because you are doing something outside the normal rules. The normal rules are our lexicon, they are a common ground by which all of us can understand each other and communicate our ideas. If you chose to not use the language of normal Ars Magica spell construction (normal ranges, durations, targets) we have no way of understanding your spells or providing constructive criticism.

Keep to the core book, follow the core rules, follow the spell construction guidelines or don't bother to ask us questions because we will be unable to understand you or help you.

Chuck

"The Hermetic system does not allow for alternative targets such as eyeball."

Actually, it does. The proper target for eyeball (or any other part of a body) is Part, and adds +1 magnitude to the difficulty of the spell. (Note, AbRay, that it is not a more limited form of individual; it is actually harder to affect only a part of something than it is the whole thing).

This isn't to say that eyeball is the proper target for the spell that AbRay is trying to target (far from it), but it should be pointed out that eyeball can be a proper target. This is how you can get spells such as Arm of the Infant.

Dealing with what the form and target of the XRay spell should be, it would probably be more appropriate to take it as InTe (Co, He, An, other prereqs as required) and have the target be the area you're trying to see into - Room, Structure or Boundary. It could probably be done with MuCo to change the eyes of the person, but would definitely be highly unnatural. (Don't have the book handy to figure out what the base level is for that kind of change - I would imagine that it would be high, though).

The reason I didn't discuss this is because AbRay uses the free 4th edition PDF. It's my intent to try to work with him using 4th edition core rules, without the option of vis boosting. Until AbRay can build a simple spell useing these rules I do not intend to inform or instruct him in other options. Efforts to instruct him in Ars5 or supplemental rules will only complicate the process of teaching this unread student.

chuck

Okay, that makes sense. The 'part' target was introduced in 5th edition, and wouldn't be appropriate for 4th edition spells. I wouldn't let someone scale the spell back in 4th for targeting part of an individual, though (let alone making it 5 magnitudes easier, like AbRay had in his spell construction).

The question remains, though, what would be the best way to construct such a spell, since there would be more than one way. Would it be to use Co as the primary, to affect the person wanting to see through things, or would it be more appropriate to use InTe, with appropriate prerequisites, to allow the person to ignore the obstructing objects when looking through things? I would probably start with the latter, and base targets and ranges off of that.

I agree and have told AbRay what to do. Essentially he needs to read the book, an effort he likely won't make. If he reads the book, he can look at the various Intellego + Form combinations and determine which is the most difficult. I suggested he use this as the base value for the spell. AbRay has to date, been unwilling to do this. I want to help AbRay learn spell construction, but I won't do basic math for him and I won't tell him the base spell level.

I feel AbRay throws spell ideas out there and then he wants us tell him the level of the spell. That is, he wants us to make the spell for him. AbRay needs to figure out how to do this on his own. Given that AbRay hasn't done this, I sort of feel this discussion is over.

If others want to make this spell I'll discuss it with them, but AbRay doesn't seem interested in making an effort to determine how to build this spell. That fact has to a degree, ended the discussion.

chuck

Well.....
An Associate of mine who is quite active on this Board recently took the Time to Analyze the online Time that Abe spends to Post his "Questions",it´s under a Minute.....
If he spends that much Time for Posting it figures that he can`t
download the free Rules.I just wonder why he bothers to ask at all.
Especially considering how much he seems to love "his" D & D.

Chris

Having seen your postings on other boards , i remain unconvinced that you dont do it on purpose for this Forum.

You dont have to play a Game to get it right.
Read the rules , follow the helpful Guidelines given you , then you should be able to work out Spells.

Spells are researched by a Mage in his Lab with no outside help normally.
So no actual play other than learning system mechanics and getting feedback from these Forums would be needed.

Sorry i cant answer , as i am only familiar with 5th Ed rules.
You are still using 4th Ed.

Target looks wrong for a start , as do the modifiers to spell level for Duration and Target.

The Spell name would (imo) indicate a Rego effect , not a Creo one.
Looks like you are trying to do a "Burning Hands" spell.

But 5 + 1 - 1 - 2 = 3. You got that part right. Since addition and subtraction have the same precedence, and then using the associative property:

(5 + 1) - (1 + 2) = 3

(6) - (3) = 3

3 = 3.

Q.E.D.