Hi,

I'm looking over the Mysteries, but don't have my Hedge Wizards book available. My question is, if one summons a Daemon what aspects of the Daemon are magical and what part is mundane? Specifically, from the Mysteries, if one summons Hipta, the Dove. Is the pecking attack of the dove a natural attack (bypassing Parma Magica)? If one summons Honos, the warrior, is Honos' lance a mundane attack (bypassing Parma Magica)?

I'm curious because if Honos' lance is apart of his mystic body, if the entire creature is a magical 'mass', then Parma Magica would protect a mage from the lance attack, the peck attack, anything really, right???

Any advice?

Thanks,

Chuck

I also do not have my books at my fingertips. But I can tell you that parma was defined in a different way in fourth edition and this sort of a thing wasn't an issue when the mysteries was published.

My opinion is that if the attack does not require might points then it could possibly qualify as non-magical. However if the Daemeon is only present because of a spell with a duration (i.e. when the duration ends and the daemon disappears), then the penetration of the summon spell must beat the MR for a non-might based attack to function. If the daemon is there under its own power then the penetration roll is not necessary.

In any case, you'll want to rework the numbers fr fifth edition.

I'm going to pat myself on the back, because i think i've stumbled onto an actual 'good question.'

Looking over the mysteries, I think I can provide a possible answer.

Thaumatury allows magi to use Creo Vim to 'bring forth airy spirits' with a duration of special. My understanding is that these spirits are temporal mystic constructs. I would argue that anything they bring with them, clothes, swords, whatever is apart of the construct. Therefore Parma Magic would provide protection. All parts of the construct (fists, sword, whatever) would hit with the strength of the creatures Magic Might. This would need to penetrate Parma Magica to affect a Magus.

However, Rego Vim can be used to "command ghosts, daemons, and elementals".

All the spell does is boss a creature around, so I'd argue that the spell has no influence on Parma Magica because the target is a daemon, not a magus.

Now the issue is, if one uses Rego Vim Thaumaturgy to order a naturally existing daemon (compared to one created by magic) to attack someone, does the defending magus recieve the protection of Parma Magica? To answer this, one needs to define the nature of naturally exisiting daemons.

The books seem to suggest that ghosts are wholely magical. If a ghost has a sword or fists, these aspects are apart of how construct. The ghost needs to expend magic might to have these aspects affect the natural world. This expenditure clarifies that Parma Magica would offer protection from a ghosts fists or sword.

The book seem to suggest that elementals are in part physical. Therefore if an elemental has fists, those fists hit as a naturally occuring thing and Parma Magica will not offer protection. Obviously if the elemental uses powers, Parma Magica offers protection.

Mystic daemons is the evasive creature. Clearly some of these creatures possess bodies and carry items such as sacks or swords. Alseid of Ebora (mysteries p149) can discorporate and possesses equiptment that discorporates with her. I infer (possibly incorrectly) that the equiptment is an aspect of her construct. That is, her equiptment is apart of her and can't exist seperately from her body. If this is the case, then those items, as an extension of her must penetrate Parma Magica before they can hurt a magus.

Dietrich von Bern (mysteries p151) carries a magic sword with stats. It states in Dietrich's description that the daemon of Dietrich animates his own corpse to protect his tomb. His equiptment is real and not apart of the daemon. Dietrich's sword is enchanted which means Parma Magica works. However, if Dietrich's sword was not enchanted it would be a normal sword swinging through the air and therefore Parma Magica would offer no protection.

However, Parma Magica would offer protection from Dietrich's dead fists.

Why?

The fist of the corpse is being moved by magic and because magic can not be seperated from it's "carrier" the target stops short. I guess this means that zombies can't hurt Magi either. Hmmmm, never considered this before. That will tick some people off.

It seems that daemons come in two types, 100% mystic constructs, and mystic contstructs that occupy naturally occuring things. I'd argue that if either tried to hit a mage, Parma Magic would block.
Why?

100% mystic constructs are completely magical and thier form whether it's a fist or sword, is magical and blocked by Parma Magica.

"Occupiers" suffer the same fate, because magic can not be seperated from the carrier item. So when the construct moves the fist of a corpse, that fist can go no further than the magic that moves it. So like it's 100% cousin, the fist is blocked by Parma Magica.

However the advantage "occupiers" have over 100% constructs is that they are more likely to carry natural items. These items would pass through Parma Magica unobstructed.

This could really irriated people as it depowers daemons ability to fight Magi, but I think I'm right on the matter. Obviously I could be wrong and hope to inspire an interesting discussion on the subject of daemons in Ars.

Chuck

I've looked over Mysteries a little more.
Within the category of Daemons, they do cite that there are Made Daemons, and various types of naturally occuring Daemons.

I still think Made Daemons are 100% magic so even thier fists or swords or whatever would be blocked by Parma Magica.

For Natural Daemons, I think what I wrote previously is still true.

However, I think I might have found a loophole. One could create a Daemon that has the power to transport mundane items. If a Daemon is transfixed with a mundane item, say a sword it carried when it was alive as mortal hero. It might be able to carry that mundane sword where it goes, sort of like Seven League Stride. The natural sword shows up wherever the Daemon shows up. Any way this would allow the Daemon, where ever it is, to use natural weapons it carries and explain how they can penetrate Parma Magica.

Thoughts?

Chuck

I can't lend any concrete or decisive opinions here, as I do not accept the canon explanation of Magic Resistance in 5th Edition, and I don't want to re-open the long-winded argument over MR and its various loopholes.

In general, however, I would take the question of whether a power or attack required Might as a good starting point. From there, I would then consider whether the daemon is a spiritual entity or a physical entity. For a purely spiritual entity (including ghosts), I would like require all attacks to penetrate MR; for a physical entity, I wouldn't require penetration for an otherwise mundane attack, unless there was a magical aspect involved that needed special consideration.

Regarding zombies... I would not allow MR in general, or the Parma Magica in specific, to provide a protection against the fist attacks / bites / kicks of a zombie, even if it can be argued that the motive nature is powered by magic. Though others may argue the interpretation, I draw loosely upon the ruling on MR that magical effects that are not aimed are resisted, but magical effects that are aimed are not. As a zombie must make an attack roll to hit the magus, this is an "aimed" attack. Now, this is a loose interpretation. I don't feel the core rules extrapolated enough upon that principle (among others).

I don't particulary hold to the idea that if a spell is used to summon a daemon, the spell must penetrate someone's MR in order for the daemon to affect the person. To me, one has nothing to do with the other. As the spell is not being cast on the individual in question, that individual's MR doesn't come into play. Now, since the level of a spell pretty much determines the Might of the daemon summoned, this doesn't rule out the previous arguments over whether the daemon itself must overcome MR.

On a side note, I might consider a distinction between the essential nature of a "conjured" daemon, as opposed to that of a "summoned" daemon. A conjured daemon (i.e. one created through CrVi magic) is essentially a magical entity in its entirety, that only exists for the duration of the spell. A summoned daemon, however (i.e. ReVi), is a self-existing entity that is called forth from where ever it normally exists (which will likely require a degree of time for travel), and thus is not a purely magical creation.