Hi, I'm new to this board.

I'm trying to figure out how to make an invested device, but I'm not sure how to create the two effects I want.
The device is a small magical leather pouch, which is completely watertight. When touching this pouch to a piece of clothing, it will shring it and put it in the pouch. A command word takes them out of the pouch again.

So how do I make this in Ars Magica?

E.

Keeping the water out of the pouch is easiest done with ReAq (cloak of duck's feathers?), but should be doable with a MuAn/He (depending on what the pouch is made of) effect as well. I haven't got the book here, so I can't tell you the exact levels, but remember to add 2 magnitudes for sun duration, and 4 levels for 2 times a day and env-trigger. (this makes it a constant effect)

The second effect is a bit more tricky. To shrink a piece of clothing, you need a MuAn with a He req. You need a range of touch, and a duration of conc (with item maintains concentration).

Yeah, that was how I came up with it too. I based the effect on Duck's Featers, but increased it one magnitude for being completely submerged. The other effect was Muto Animal, since clothes are made from animal products. Hmm.. I might add in Herbam there too, since the magi will want to put his staff into the pouch.

Anyway, thanks for the help :)

E.

///Yeah, that was how I came up with it too. I based the effect on Duck's Featers, but increased it one magnitude for being completely submerged. The other effect was Muto Animal, since clothes are made from animal products. Hmm.. I might add in Herbam there too, since the magi will want to put his staff into the pouch. ///

Ultimately, I think this is the right path. Herbam is also necessary for some clothing items. I believe linen was around at this time.

The main concerns that I feel need to be addressed are:

1) Obviously the items must be reduced to a smaller size/volume/mass to make the pouch feasible. How do you intend to address this? Extra magnitudes of effect, perhaps... or an Auram requisite to turn it into air... or Terram, to turn it into gems. Ultimately, something would have to determine a limit to how much can be held in the bag.

2) If an item is set to maintain concentration on an effect, can that effect be cast multiple times, and thus have several instances of the effect in operation? I am inclined to think not. It would seem more accurate that an item could only invoke an effect and maintain concentration on it one instance at a time. To use the effect again would require the first instance to be released.

3) Touching the pouch to an item of clothing and having the effect take place is simple enough for the Muto Animal effect, but to actually move the contents into the bag, I believe, would require a Rego requisite. I am tempted to accept it as a cosmetic effect, but then I have to consider that, if the Muto aspect wasn't being considered, and you were only intending to move an item into the bag on touch, then it would definitely require Rego. I feel the movement and the transformation have to be treated as separate aspects of the effect and that this meets the requirements for a requisite with a +1 Magnitude effect modification.

Well, let's put it another way...

The reason I wanted to get this effect was because of my character. He is a Bjornaer with an otter as heartbeast, and he likes to travel the rivers of the Rhine Tribunal.
But he wants an easy way of bringing his clothing and gear, while in otter-form.

So, any cool suggestions?

E.

Maybe not as exotic as you initially proposed, but what if your Bjornaer has sack for all his gear. Before swiming the Rhine Land your character disrobes and puts everything in the sack. You also possess an earing, this earing is an arcane connection to the sack. When you get to where ever your going you tug your ear, and use the AC to 'pull' the sack to you (teleport). The sack is there, your stuff is there, you get dressed. The spell might have to be broad to cover the various items in the sack Rego Herb Req Terram.

It's possible someone could steal from the sack (if they find it) and your character couldn't take off quickly, but I see these are storytelling strengths rather than real world deterants.

Just and idea.

Chuck

But what kind of spell could get the sack to the magus?

E.

I was going to write that this would be a variant of the Invisible Hand of the Theif, but such a spell doesn't exist in Ars5. Let me figure this out and get back to you later tonight. Were not breaking any Hermetic Limits, so it can be done!

Chuck

Ok, were going to move into the realm of 'interpretation' and I'm curious to see what people will say.

Rego Corpus details that Lvl 35, "Transport target instantly to a place to which you have an AC"

Standard parameters are R:Per D: Mom T: Ind

Here's the point of interpretation. Some people will say touch an AC is like touching the item. If this is the case, then if your earing is and AC to say the latch on the case, your spell would be Rego Terram Req Animal (for the sack). You cast the spell touching the AC (your earring) and the sack appears between your hand and ear.

So that's one interpretation.

The other is, the target is the satchel on the sack. The only way to affect the target at a distance is to use the range AC

This means the spell would be Base 35 R:AC +20 D: Mom T: Ind

So the spell would be Rego Terram Req Animal Lvl:55 (ouch!)

For those who believe you need a range of AC, this is an expensive spell, but i don't believe anyone can say it won't work.

Where ever you are, you cast the spell, your sack appears.

Any complaints out there? I'm curious.

Chuck

Just for the basics, we are talking Rego, as that covers all movement effects. I would assume the sack would be Animal. Any Herbam components might need to be considered, but could likely be considered incidental.

So Rego Animal.

Range would have to be Arcane Connection.

Duration would be Momentary.

Target would be Individual.

Interesting, but my Magus isn't nearly that powerful yet. There has to be another easier way.
I'm more for shrinking the clotes, putting them in some bag or other container, and carrying them while swimming.

Maybe this will work. Muto Animal to transform the clothes to pieces of string (wool). Tie the strings up into a loop to have around the neck.
But I do like the idea of an otter carrying a small pouch in it's paws or around the neck. Just the look of it.. very fairytale'ish :)

E.

Looking over my take on 'Return Sack' the only question I have is, can one consider the sack and the sacket upon it one item?

If they can, then my lay out works. Specifically I believe the Lvl 55 version is correct. Rego Terram Reg Ani lvl:55

If the satchel is 'on' the sack, but not apart of it, then this spell doesn't work.

Now the only reason I made it Terram was to link the earing to the satchel. It seemed that an earring is something easy for a Bjornear to carry in either form.

One could make is a piece of cloth or rope that the heartbeast has to carry or wear. If this is done, nix the Terram element (pun intended) and just make the spell Rego Animal.

One thing to consider is this is a spell, not an enchanted item. It has interesting applications beyond 'retrieve cloths'. Once an Magus made the effort to create such a spell, they could find numerous applications for it beyond 'retrieve cloths.'

Chuck

Ok,

I'm a Rego guy, so everything I do revolves around Rego...

Anyway, Muto Animal Base 5, Change something made of animal products in a major unnatural way.

Furthermore one can see that Beast of Miniscule Proportions reduces the size of an animal by -2

Looking at the guidelines one can see Beast of has a base of 4, so the -2 size can be used as a model.

Shrink clothes would be Muto Animal 5 R: Per D: Mom T: Ind

We need to modify Range and Duration to make this spell usefull

I suggest Range of touch +5 and a Duration of Sun +10. That way you can swim and not have to maintain concentration.

So Shrink Clothes is Muto Animal Lvl 20
Base 5 R:T (+5) D: Sun (+10) T:Ind It makes an item of clothes -2 it's original size.

While a shirt or pants can clearly cover a person I would argue their size is much smaller than a person. I'd say a rolled up shirt and pants is maybe as large as a Rat (size -8). Reduceing -2 Size means it would be as large as a Mouse (p192).

A mouse could fit in a small pouch and an otter could wear and carry that pouch. Is that easier????

Chuck

Yes, this could work. And it's within the capabilities of my magus too. Thanks :)

E.

Having finally taken a look at the book again I have a few notes:

Effect A (keeping pouch dry): Since you're going to be swiming under water, I think you're going to have to move from "gently controlling water" (Base 1) to "Warding against water" (Base 5). This will increase the level by 4 magnitudes.

Effect B (reducing size): When calculating the size reduction, remember that a size difference of 3 is half/double. By my calculations that means that a reduction by 2 sizelevels means reducing it to 2/3rds. Linen is expensive so you'll be sticking to wool for your robe...

However, using a simple "make robe spell" should be far easier, and it would prevent you from having your bag get stuck on some branch in the water...

Spells that make clothes are around level 25 for sun duration due to needing target group (almost all clothing will have more than one peice/fiber) instead of individual.

My Bjornaer uses just this spell for when he reverts to human form, the special effect is that it the clothes seem to grow down from his hair.

Unless you need muliple pieces, you need only target:ind. A robe is one piece. (However, a belt is another, and underwear is yet another...)

One of the simpler ways (at least in summer), is using a CrIm spell to create illusionary clothing...

If you make a corpse, do you count the individual hairs on its head as a group?

Group usually applies for seperate targets.

(btw - even if you count each thread as seperate - a robe can be made from a single thread if it is long enough)

"I am pretty sure (being at work and without a book) that 1 thread is an individual, so if you are making wool clothes you need group as a target. Just as if you were making a wooden wall out of planks, 1 plank would be an individual and the wall would be group (or larger)."

I would say that a thread in a garment or a plank in a board would be target “part” rather than target “individual”. I would certainly never judge a wooden wall or a linen shirt as target group.

While the description of target "individual" on page 112 of the core book is not crystal clear, I think it supports my view more than it does yours in this matter. Specifically, the sentence "Clothes on a person or moss on a boulder are part of the person or boulder for these purposes." is inconsistant with needing a target group spell to effect even a single garment.

Having just re-read the entry in the book, the statement is that individual is a single thread, fur or tusk when creating animal products.

However, as previously stated, aim for creating a single thread robe. (Or if you need to spont it - do as our Bjoernar does - make an illusion of a robe (CrIm 5 should do for a simple robe with dur: Sun))

"Having just re-read the entry in the book, the statement is that individual is a single thread, fur or tusk when creating animal products."

Certainly, if that(a tusk or a thread)were all you were going to create, the target of the appropriate spell would be individual. However, one could also create an entire animal carcus with a target individual spell containing several tusks,(and in the same manner; a garment with multiple threads).

Compare this to "Conjuring the Mytic Tower". It makes a tower consisting of a single block of stone. Thus it is an individual. Had it been made from several stones (like a normal building), the target would be group. Same thing applies. This isn't a problem unless you for some strange reason need your clothes to be made from multiple threads.

And yes, you could make a entire corpse with a individual target. However, a corpse isn't a processed material, is it? A thread is, and the book is rather precise on this.

"Compare this to "Conjuring the Mytic Tower". It makes a tower consisting of a single block of stone. Thus it is an individual. Had it been made from several stones (like a normal building), the target would be group...the book is rather precise on this."

I consulted my book last night; it does -not- say (as far as I could tell) in a precise way that a composite entity, such as a multi-thread shirt, is a group target.

In my cursory search I found two spells that agreed with your interpretation:

Conjuring the mystic tower is a target individual spell that creates a tower of a single piece of stone.

There is a creo terram dirt creation spell that uses a target of group (I can't recall the name). The dirt creation spell creates a quantity of dirt in excess of the volume defined as an individual in terram, so the target of group is warranted in either interpretation. Of course from the "composite entities can be individual targets" perspective, using a size modifier rather than a group target may have been a more elegant design choice.

I also found several spells that contradicted your interpretation:

Wall of protecting stone has a target of individual. Nowhere in the spell does it say that the wall is made of a single block of granite and the spell does specify that the created wall can be broken through with picks and tools. This is a Herculean task when considering a 3ft thick section of solid granite but a practical task when considering a wall of granite blocks.

Curse of the rotted wood has a target of individual. It specifically specifies objects the size of a single door. While the spell does not state that it could be used on a door I believe that the implication is obvious.

Bridge of wood has a target of individual. It does not specify that the bridge is created out of a single piece of wood.

Wall of living wood has a target of individual. This spell specifically mentions that it effects nearby trees rather than a nearby tree or plant.

The most telling example that I found was doublet of impenetrable silk; which is a target individual spell that clearly affects an item clothing that consists of more than one thread.

Following your interpretation it is easier (if you can swing the requisite) to create a clothed corpse (as the clothing is clearly part of target individual, see my previous post) than it would be to create the clothing without the attached body.

Perhaps my view has been colored too much by previous editions but I think of target individual spells as spells that create platonic forms. A chair is a form whether it is made from one piece of wood or a thousand is accident not substance and therefore not important for deciding the target. (Ok, I've never read much Plato and I've never read any Aristotle so it's very likely that the previous statement is gibberish. But, gibberish or not, that's how I understand it.)

You seemed to be very confident in your position. Could you tell us what it was in the book that lead you to your "a shirt is target group" understanding?

Edited 6/22/2005 10:24 am ET by erik_tyrrell

Draco refers to a spell guideline from ArM5 p.116 here:
"Level 5: Create an animal product, such as spidersilk or wool. (Note that an Individual is a single hair, a single hide, or a single tusk.)"
Whether this enables the conclusion that 'treated' or 'treated and processed' animal products created by spells with T:Ind must have been made of a raw animal product Individual - a single hair, hide or tusk - is dubious at best. Draco's generalization of the above specific spell guideline would indeed require T: Group already for a spell to create a single thread of wool, since this consists of thousands of animal hairs.

A more practical reading of the CrAn guidelines would rather consider whether magically created 'treated' or 'treated and processed' animal products themselves - like leather jackets or woolen tunics - conform with the description of Individual from ArM5 p. 112, instead of focusing on the raw animal products they are made of.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Just to muddy the waters a bit, I thought I'd chime in that /Twinning the Tome/ in True Lineages uses T: Group to affect a book. I wrote this because I felt that even though the pages are usually bound together, the spell is doing much more than creating an individual thing. I thought creating a single page would be T: Ind, but that to produce an entire book, T: Group would be needed. This way the spell is still useful when the "book" is a collection of loose pages, though it might also give the impression that you can do more than one book with the same spell, which isn't true. Also, in a sense there are two targets in the spell, the original and the copy, so I was attempting to incorporate that into the build as well. However, the spell also adds several magnitudes for intricacy, and perhaps it would have been better to add two more magnitudes there instead.

I tend to agree instinctively that a robe or a cloak is an individual target, even if made from several different substances. The guidelines require additional magnitudes for processed materials as opposed to natural ones, so I don't think it's necessary to also bump the target, though an additional magnitude for complex craftwork seems appropriate to me.

From a medieval author's or scribe's perspective a volume could well be considered a group of sexterns.
Also often enough a volume consisted of several unrelated texts - that just were in need of binding at the same time.

So making a volume a T:Group might indeed suit the mindset of the magus designing your spell.

Kind regards,

Berengar