In the PeVi Guidelines it states that one needs to peirce the parma of a magus in order to reduce the Casting total of that magus.

It also says that one needs to have a PeVi total of a spell of equal or lower ( not exactly that but close ) that the parma x5 to dispell the parma. In addition it must first penetrate the parma.

My question is simple, What is the penetration of the Aegis? Does it suppress the parma at some level/penetration ?

Thanks for you opinions...

The Aegis would have no effeect on the parma.

The aegis does two things: it provides magic resistance against a spell or effect passing into the area protected by the aegis from outside of the area, and it reduces the penetration of foreign magics that are cast within the area of the aegis.

Parma is not a spell or effect in the normal sense. Parma does not have a penetration score and it can't really be hindered by the aegis.

A parma busting spell or magic dispelling spell (like wind of mundane silence) can pull down someone's parma but the Aegis is not an effect of this sort.

To answer your specific question regarding the penettration of an aegis; you could compute the penetration in the same manner as any other spell. The penetration of an aegis would rarely be relevant. The spell targets an area and areas rarely have any magic resistance. (I suppose that if part of the area to be warded by an aegis ritual is already warded by a previously cast aegis, then the penetration of the new spell would be important to see if the overlapping area is effected by both rituals or only the original one.)

"A parma busting spell or magic dispelling spell (like wind of mundane silence) can pull down someone's parma but the Aegis is not an effect of this sort."

I know but by looking at the Aegis description & expending the ReVi guidelunes in cross reference to the PeVi one's, I intuitively feel that the parma could actually be suspended by an Aegis if it were to penetrate the magic resistance of the Magus.

This would not happen of course if the magus has a token ...

There is no exact description that I found to support or infirm this exact case.

Thanks,

Alex

//I know but by looking at the Aegis description & expending the ReVi guidelunes in cross reference to the PeVi one's, I intuitively feel that the parma could actually be suspended by an Aegis if it were to penetrate the magic resistance of the Magus.//

Given that the Aegis is a major breakthrough, hence potentially transcending spell guidelines, I suggest to stick to the description of the Aegis ritual proper and not try to interpret it from ReVi or PeVi guidelines.

It may indeed appear odd that an Aegis can keep out a being with magic might and suppress spells cast on a being when it enters the protected area, but cannot suppress a Parma on that same being.

But there is no indication in the Aegis' description that the Aegis suppresses a Parma. Since the Parma is a true Hermetic breakthrough and a prerequisite of the Aegis proper, I recommend to let this stand.

Kind regards,

Berengar

//It may indeed appear odd that an Aegis can keep out a being with magic might and suppress spells cast on a being when it enters the protected area, but cannot suppress a Parma on that same being.//

My feelings exactly.

//But there is no indication in the Aegis' description that the Aegis suppresses a Parma. Since the Parma is a true Hermetic breakthrough and a prerequisite of the Aegis proper, I recommend to let this stand.//

I also agree. If it we otherwise it would bring a lot of instability to the order since it would be very dangerous to be under someone else powerfull Aegis.

Tt does bring me to another issue. Should it be harder to dispell the parma than another Vim spells? In the PeVi guidelines it states that we can dispell by type of form but again I feel that a PeVi(Vi) should not dispel a Parma...

What do you guys think?

"Tt does bring me to another issue. Should it be harder to dispell the parma than another Vim spells? In the PeVi guidelines it states that we can dispell by type of form but again I feel that a PeVi(Vi) should not dispel a Parma..."

A parma isn't a vim effect at all, it is a unique effect, and a parma-breaker spell would have to be created spesifically to counter it. (WoMS works because it is an universal effect).

"It may indeed appear odd that an Aegis can keep out a being with magic might and suppress spells cast on a being when it enters the protected area, but cannot suppress a Parma on that same being."

An Aegis does not remove (or suppress) magical effects allready in effect. It simply reduces the casting-total of any spell cast within the area. Parma is allways successful and has no penetration, so is not affected in any way. The only question is if MR protects from an Aegis.

'A parma isn't a vim effect at all, it is a unique effect, and a parma-breaker spell would have to be created spesifically to counter it. (WoMS works because it is an universal effect).'

Agreed. This was what I was looking for. Thanks.

>The only question is if MR protects from an Aegis.

Right. I believe that the Aegis to reduce the casting total has to first penetrate the MR. I know that the Aegis is a breakthru and all which might set it aside from the examples detailed in the PeVi guidelines. Even more, there are no talk about MR in any of the Aegis examples. This tells me that the writters wanted somehow that the Aegis penetrates automatically any MR. The fact that it blocks all teleportation into the Aegis without a token also points in that direction.

this would mean that Aegis actually beats the Parma hense the Parma is flawed!

Some loose thoughts on this:

- The Aegis is a passive effect, working on the magic in the area (not the mage himself).
- It's effect has much in common with a ward.
- Wards against people can be resisted with a Parma.
- Wards against beings with Might are not resisted(?) Penetration worked into the level of the spell?

"- Wards against people can be resisted with a Parma.
- Wards against beings with Might are not resisted(?) Penetration worked into the level of the spell?"

I didn't realize this (specifically I did not rrealize the first point). I had always seen the issue with creatures of might not being able to cross the boundry to be one of applicability of the magic resistance rahter than the inherent power fo the spell.

I'd say that the books difference in the treatment of these wards represent an -in setting- difference between the way that parma works and might works.

//An Aegis does not remove (or suppress) magical effects allready in effect.//

It does suppress them, indeed. ArM5 p.161: "The Aegis is also able to block foreign Intellego spells, even if the cannot normally be blocked by a Parma Magica, and spells that were cast before they entered the Aegis, such as an invisibility spell cast on a magus outside the Aegis."

Kind regards,

Berengar

//- Wards against people can be resisted with a Parma.
- Wards against beings with Might are not resisted(?)... //

There apparently (ArM5 p.134, Rego Corpus guidelines) are no wards against people without a Might score.
So - ex falso quodlibet - your above statement is right, though not very meaningful.

Kind regards,

Berengar

//There apparently (ArM5 p.134, Rego Corpus guidelines) are no wards against people without a Might score.//

While I lack the book at the moment, I'm certain that the guidelines hold a ReCo 15 ward against people.

//It does suppress them, indeed. ArM5 p.161: "The Aegis is also able to block foreign Intellego spells, even if the cannot normally be blocked by a Parma Magica, and spells that were cast before they entered the Aegis, such as an invisibility spell cast on a magus outside the Aegis.//

Situation:

Magus has a parma of 6 which grants him a basic protection of 30 + form. He is invisible an wanting to enter an Aegis. To enter he needs to go thru gates that are enchanted with a CrIm to render visible invisible creatures but his parma, beeing a Breakthru make by Bonisagus himself, resist the disenchantment. He then enters the Aegis which is of level 25.

What happens then ?

//Magus has a parma of 6 which grants him a basic protection of 30 + form. He is invisible an wanting to enter an Aegis. To enter he needs to go thru gates that are enchanted with a CrIm to render visible invisible creatures but his parma, beeing a Breakthru make by Bonisagus himself, resist the disenchantment.//
Why should a Parma protect spells? Just because their effect is close to the protected magus? Spells are not items - so one cannot apply ArM5 p.85: "... keeps magic away from the maga, her clothing, and other items that are very close to her.". AFAICS the invisibility spell of your magus had to resist the CrIm effect by comparing levels and modifiers (cf. e. g. ReIm Gen Restore the Moved Image from ArM5 p.146).

//He then enters the Aegis which is of level 25.//
The Aegis resists the spell, with Might 25. Did the casting total for the invisibility spell exceed the level of the invisibility spell by 26 or more? Then the invisibility spell penetrates the Aegis and continues to work within it. Otherwise it is suppressed. A Parma does not protect the spell from the Aegis either.

Kind regards,

Berengar

It all Makes sence.

Bottom line is that parma remains in an Aegis no matter how strong the Aegis is.

Thanks to you all for the input.