I currently play a Gragachan (Scottish Mage from Lion of the North) Have any rules in this supplement, especially the Virtues for Gruagachan eg Shapechange/Transform - Gift/Curse/Geas changed or been updated??

THanks in advance

Actually,I found teh greatest difficulty with drawing up a 5th Ed Gruagach was that the Curse and Geas-granting vitues weren't in there.

Aside from that, just transporting everyithing over & requiring The Gift, with a +0 status virtue "Gruagach" worked fine.

V.

//Actually,I found teh greatest difficulty with drawing up a 5th Ed Gruagach was that the Curse and Geas-granting vitues weren't in there.

Aside from that, just transporting everyithing over & requiring The Gift, with a +0 status virtue "Gruagach" worked fine.//

One of the players in my campaign plays a Gruagach from Lion of the North. I also had a problem with the Curse and Geas virtue. My main Problem though is their magic resistance.
The 5th Edition rules clearly state that only members of the order of hermes have magic resistance in the form of the Parma Ritual. The Gruagachan however have a resistance which is a sum of the gruagach's score in the abilities of his first three supernatural virtues.
What did you do?
Did You allow the gruagach to keep his resistance as in the 3rd/4th edition rules or did you remove his magic resistance?

Is it possible for a Gruagach to learn the Parma Ritual from a Hermetic Magus?

Or posing the question in more general terms.
Can Gifted magic users trained in a non-hermetic tradition learn the Parma Ritual?
Ideas/suggestions anyone?

Flarg

There are rules in the core book regarding having a gifted character learn a new magical ability. I would apply these to Parma.

Letting a Gruagach have his 3rd-4th magic resistance is a bit powerful as MR is much more useful in fifth than it was in the two previous editions.

Parma is the one trick that hermetics can pull out that no other magic caster can do. If you don't care if there's a unique trick that Hermetics can do and everyone else can't then you should feel free to give the Gruagach some magic resistance.

What I'd do is develop virtues such as resistant to fire, untransformable or resistant to mental manipulation to give the Gruagach sort of an ad-hoc parma by use of blessings.

Without going into great detail, this was an issue in a debate on the Berklist when the ArM5 corebook came out.

Myself and several others (David Woods in particular, who wrote the revised gruagach/trollsynir rules with Mark Shirley for ArM4) felt that the rule prohibiting non-Divine, non-Infernal, non-Order of Hermes wizards (ie nearly all the ArM4 hedge traditions except diabolists) from having "universal" Magic Resistance was greatly disempowering to those who wanted reasonably interesting/challenging hedge wizards in their Sagas.

I challenged the line editor on this and a rationale was given.

I won't post the lengthy discussion, but I maintain that granting non-Hermetics "universal" MR does not eclipse Hermetics the way most Sagas would be run. The key issue is Penetration - Hermetics can rapidly generate high Penetration scores with their Arts scores, but ehdge wizards are much more limited due to their reliance on Ability based totals.

In effect all this implies an unstated Limit of Magic: "The Limit of Universal Magic Resistance", which only Gifted members of the Order of Hermes can break. Hedge wizards will presumably be able to break other Limits of Magic, but this Limit is reserve for members of the Order and wizards aligned with the Infernal and Divine realms.

I don't necessarily agree with the rationale, but it's here to stay.

To learn Parma Magica (an Arcane Ability) you must meet two requirements in ArM5:

1) You must possess the Gift.
2) You must be a member of the Order of Hermes.

As it's an Arcane ability, you can learn it if you are trained and don't need to learn it like a Supernatural Ability (ArM5 p169 rules etc.

As a Saga idea, it is suggested that if you could learn the Parma and not be a member of the Order, but you should take a Major Story Flaw (Order fo Hermes) and be subject to being hunted down by the Order.

YMMV of course.

In LotN, there are many gruagach who are members of House Ex Miscellanea and hence members of the Order. The question becomes not whether this carries over to ArM5 (IMO probably), but more importantly whether they have the Gift.

I'm currently digesting RoP:tD to see if this can suggest a way of modelling gruagach within the ArM5 rules, but my initial thoughts are they would work best as Mythic Companions (see HoH:TL and RoP:tD) as this seems to be the way "magus-equivalent" hedge wizards and characters will be portrayed in ArM5.

No Mythic Companion published so far can have the Gift - it's one or the other, and for balance reasons this is likely to stay. Having the Gift implies you can learn Hermetic magic, albeit with difficulty if you have prior Supernatural Ability scores, and having a character with up to 20 points of Virtues for only 10 points of Flaws who can also learn Hermetic magic is likley to be unbalancing.

ArM3/4 gruagach couldn't learn Hermetic magic (there was a Saga idea somewhere about a Bonisagus of Clan MacGruagach trying to rectify this in LotN IIRC though), so it would seem unlikely that they are Gifted in ArM5.

A non-Hermetic aligned with the Faerie or Magic realms can theoretically have MR to a SINGLE realm, which might make a straight conversion from earlier editions workable, but although the line editor has not ruled this out, he's not in favour of it. It creates a quandry for say a gruagach having MR vs Magic realm effects but not for Faerie effects and since most NPC gruagach will come up against Hermetics is basically a hand wave and not a solution. IMO having a gruagach susceptible to Infernal or Divine effects seems to fit the flavour of the concept though, so I'd accept this.

Having "specific" MR equivalent to your Magical Talent score vs effects governed by the talent makes some sense: ie. a gruagach with a Curse score of 8 has an MR of 8 vs Curse effects directed at him regardless of whether they are gruagach, Hermetic, Faerie, Divine or Infernal in origin. Shapeshift then protects against unwanted transformation or Muto effects etc. More limited, but perhaps workable, especially against other gruagach although it reequires more book-keeping and Storyguide interpretation.

I'd hope that gruagach can be made to work somehow in ArM5 as they (and their Norse cousins, the trollsynir) are great magical archetypes for a Saga.

Jarkman

I assumed the Gruagach would be Gifted, and thus, as a member of the Order could learn parma.

btw - the first Mythic companion concept was for Redcaps. The obvious reason why these would not have the Gift is that, as members of Mercere, they would be trained as Hermetic magi if they did.

Thus, I see no reason why you can't have Gifted non-hermetics - indeed, it would make a mockery of the background if they couldn't exist.

I don't recall about the Divine ones other than Nephilim, but they may substitute True Faith, as the Divine Realm equivalent.

If canon does go down the route of Gifted people cannot be hedge wizards, then this will go the way of Parma. (No, magi cannot turn weapons purple with polka dots and parma them.)

V.

"I assumed the Gruagach would be Gifted, and thus, as a member of the Order could learn parma."

Gruagach actually couldn't learn Parma in ArM3/4 and none of the sample gruagach characters posessed a Parma score. They also didn't begin with Magical Air or the adverse efefcts of the GIft but gained these effects over time through a sort of 3rd edition version of Warping termed Affliction.

"btw - the first Mythic companion concept was for Redcaps. The obvious reason why these would not have the Gift is that, as members of Mercere, they would be trained as Hermetic magi if they did."

Agreed. Mythic Companion level Redcaps have no Gift. Magus Redcaps have the Gift though. It's a trade off between up to 10 free Virtues (Mythic Companion) OR the Gift and thereby the ability to use Hermetic Magic. A fair swap - maybe.

But a Mythic Companion level character with the Gift as well - up to 10 Free Virtues, the Gift (even the gentle Gift) and the ability to learn Hermetic magic?

Overpowered.

Eg. take an example Mythic Companion character with the Gift. Buy the Gentle Gift with some of your extra Virtue points. Don't buy any other Supernatural Abilities with your Virtue points. Although you can't cast Hermetic magic at the start of play, you can quickly learn without much of a penalty. Within a few seasons you have a super powerful apprentice character...

I don't think this works - otherwise why play a normal magus with only 10 Virtue points balanced by 10 Flaw points?

"Thus, I see no reason why you can't have Gifted non-hermetics - indeed, it would make a mockery of the background if they couldn't exist."

Neither do I.

In fact I think you need to have Gifted non-Hermetics if you're going to have decent hedge wizards in a Saga.

I just think Gifted Mythic Companions are potentially abusable.

The options available to a nonGifted Mythic Companion are pretty impressive already - if non-Divine hedge magicians follow suit, they might be worthwhile playing. Their lack of a decent MR is a serious obstacle IMO, but this is unlikely to change in this version of Ars.

"I don't recall about the Divine ones other than Nephilim, but they may substitute True Faith, as the Divine Realm equivalent."

Nephilim explicitly can't have True Faith. Perfecti don't begin with True Faith and don't have to purchase it. Zahids and Kabbalists both start with True Faith.

True Faith seems optional for Divine Mythic Companions. Several of the Companion level sample characters (The Byzantine Priest, Sufi Poetess, The Rabbi, The Jewish Witch) have Divine powers WITHOUT True Faith.

True Faith allows holy characters to learn NEW Divine Supernatural Abilities without needing Mystery induction or spending a Virtue ie. they can learn it like Gifted characters can learn new Supernatural Abilities (ArM5 p169). Other holy characters can still possess and use their powers without True Faith, albeit with more difficulty.

It's therefore not necessary for a holy character Mythic Companion, although it means that they can't learn new Holy Methods or Powers without spending a Virtue or being inducted into a Mystery and some Methods (Invocation which requires spending either a Confidence or a Faith point) are more difficult to use.

So IMO, gruagach work best as Mythic Companions, without the Gift.

Of course you could make an interesting "Initially trained as a Gruagach" companion character with the Gift and some gruagach magical abilities more easily than in ArM3/4 now. That character could learn Hermetic magic and/or Parma provided they joined the Order.

If you created a "gruagach tradition" and used the RoP:tD guidelines replacing True Faith with the Gift, this could come some way to a solution. The tradition's Favoured Abilities (learnt without penalty) would then be: Shapeshift, Cursing, Blessing with perhaps Potency as a new Method. Such an Ex Miscellanea "Hermetic Gruagach" could learn Parma while retaining the flavour of the original concept.

Jarkman

As an addendum:

The Line Editor has definitvely stated on the Berklist that Mythic Companions can't have the Gift - supported by a reference on p66 of Realms of Power - the Divine in fact. I'd originally thought this applied only to Holy Characters but I gather from his comments that this applies to all Mythic Companions.

Interestingly, he also said that in effect a non-Hermetic Companion character who possessed the Gift is a type of Mythic Companion (just one who has a very fixed template for Virtues/Flaws and the ability to potentially learn Hermetic Magic and Parma).

So you can still have Gifted non-Hermetics, just not Gifted Mythic Companions with 21V/10F based template.

So gruagach can still work IMO but possibly not the way you thought.

BTW Nephilim can't have True Faith (or the Gift).

It seems odd that holy character Mythic Companions can have True Faith, essentially allowing them to learn a few additional Supernatural Abilities (from their tradition's Favoured Abilities) but a non-Hermetic Mythic Companion can't take the Gift to achieve a similar effect.

It's not quite as simple as probably most Myhtic Companion holy characters have nearly all their tradition's favoured abilities anyway, but it still seems a little bit odd.

Jarkman

A challenge for you:

Draw up Bonisagus, Flambeau and Tytalus.

Are these companion class characters? Or Mythic Companion power level?

Note that they (at character gen) would not be Hermetic Magi, but, we assume, would have the Gift.

The implication of Mythic Companions not having the Gift is that no powerful Hedge Wizard, who might be powerful enough to be forced to join the Order would be Gifted!

IMO, this makes a nonsense of the background.

V.

"The implication of Mythic Companions not having the Gift is that no powerful Hedge Wizard, who might be powerful enough to be forced to join the Order would be Gifted!

IMO, this makes a nonsense of the background."

I see this as unmittagated sillyness. Only a small selection of characters fit into the mold of a character straight out of character generation.

Once a character spends a year studying high quality books or gains a friend, enemy, or reputation their virtues and flaws fall out of balance.

The three founders you mentioned clearly had the gift and a fairly healthy collection of virtues.

This just means that they would have to be created using the extremely complex character generation method rather than the advanced character generation method. Not that the system couldn't accomodate them.

Salve Sodales,

It seems to me that the problem that arises here stems from the current definition of the Gift. I'd be tempted to reconceive it as being the capacity to cast *powerful* (meant in deliberately fluffy terms that encompass storyguide discretion) magic. As such, Hermetic magi would have the Gift, as would other non-Hermetic traditions of similar power. This would make them different from MCs, who are a different sort of beast in that what they lack in raw power, they make up for in terms of quirky abilities, making them interesting to play. It should remain up to storyguides, however, as to whether they should be considered equivalent to magi or companion characters. Storyguides should also feel free to create new MC templates to suit their sagas...

However, linked to this I would also argue for the removal of the power to learn Exceptional Talents that comes from having the Gift. Hermetic magi (and their equivalents) have enough powers already in their Arts, without the capacity to learn other talents as well.

With regard to the Gruagachan and Trollsynir, I would suggest that they should be considered the equivalents, in terms of power, to Hermetic magi. Thus they would not be MCs - instead their equivalence would derive from their own magic, which is the ability to use *and learn* Exceptional Talents. Thus they would have the Gift, but it wouldn't be the Gift that gave them the capacity to learn Exceptional Talents, but rather the innate nature of their magic. The Gift merely enables them to have magic of this level of power, and gives them the appropriate social handicaps and the like...

Just my thoughts on the issue.

Niall

The rules, as written, indicate the following "classes" of character:

Grog
Companion
Mythic Companion
Hermetic Magus

Clearly the Founders were non-Hermetic.
We assume they are not Grogs.

Now, appropriate Mythic Companions are clearly more powerful sorcerors than teh equivalent Companions. (Refutations invited)

The Founders were (more or less) the most powerful wizards of Bonisagus' generation (excluding Guorna the Foetid, for example).

Ergo, they must have been "Mythic Companion class" characters.

Editors Note - subsequent to the point being made, the Line Editor has indicated that another "class" of character will be added - "Non-Hermetic Magus" to cover such situations, which satisfies me. Presumably, these will amount to Mythic Companions who can have the Gift, but it does restore the background's coherence.

V.

"It seems to me that the problem that arises here stems from ..."

I guess I've yet to see any problem. Could someone clearly state what the "problem" is?

"However, linked to this I would also argue for the removal of the power to learn Exceptional Talents that comes from having the Gift. Hermetic magi (and their equivalents) have enough powers already in their Arts, without the capacity to learn other talents as well."

But this is not actually causeing anyone any problems. Has even one of you run into this problem in play? In order for a Hermetic to learn a new ability they need to generate a study total equal to the sum of all techniques + the sum of all forms + 5. That's a number that can't be reached in almost any circumstance for a character who is out of apprenticeship. Those rules are for young gifted hedge magicians learning new abilities.

If you remove the ability for gifted people to pick up exceptional abilities you may mess with some of the Mystery initiations (as I understand the text in the main rulebook mysteries function as follows; undergo an intitiation, then pick up a virtue and a flaw)

I think that the power of character is very closely related to how many experience points they've had to spend and only very weakly correlated to the number of exceptional abilities that a character possesses.

"The rules, as written, indicate the following "classes" of character:

Grog
Companion
Mythic Companion
Hermetic Magus"

You omit the important "NPC" class of character, which can have any combination of virtues, flaws, abilities etc that the storyguide sees fit.

The Founders would, I assume, be NPCs. They are not bound by rules designed to balance player characters.

The PC rules are a useful starting point for NPC creation, but it'll be a cold day* when a rule stops me as a GM having whatever NPC I deem fit.

Cheers,

Pell.R.

*Because I'll have eaten my hat

"But this is not actually causeing anyone any problems. Has even one of you run into this problem in play? In order for a Hermetic to learn a new ability they need to generate a study total equal to the sum of all techniques + the sum of all forms + 5. That's a number that can't be reached in almost any circumstance for a character who is out of apprenticeship."

True enough, assuming your player isn't munchkining by starting with a magus with no Art scores above 0, picking up a bunch of supernatural abilities *then* raising their Arts, which is theoretically possible. Yes, I know most people won't actually *do* this, but...

"If you remove the ability for gifted people to pick up exceptional abilities you may mess with some of the Mystery initiations (as I understand the text in the main rulebook mysteries function as follows; undergo an intitiation, then pick up a virtue and a flaw)."

I guess I was treating this as something of a special case, in that the initiation allows you effectively to do something you couldn't do otherwise (learn a supernatural ability or other Virtue). I would imagine that initiations should be more story events with minimal rules use anyway.

Niall

"True enough, assuming your player isn't munchkining by starting with a magus with no Art scores above 0, picking up a bunch of supernatural abilities *then* raising their Arts, which is theoretically possible. Yes, I know most people won't actually *do* this, but..."

That's certainly possible under the rules but I'm not yet convinced it's a chioce which is munchkiny rather than one that is crazily impractical.

Look two years down the road, our standard magus has two years worth of learning under his belt while the crazy multiple abilities magus has several supernatural abilities in which he has a skill level of only one or two. Clearly the hermetic magus is more powerful.

Look fifteen years down the road; our extra supernatural ability collcting magus will have 13 years of experience split between their non-hermetic and hermetic abilities(they'll also have some killer skills that they sunk their apprenticship xp into). Because magi tend to learn more quickly after they leave apprenticship they will probably be equal art and spell wise to a freshly gauntleted magus and they'll have a few levels in each of their supernatural abilities. Meanwhile the standard magus has not been splitting their xp between two sets of abilities and I would think that their hermetic abilities would be able to accomplish many of the same tasks as the supernatural abilities of the "multi magus" after all would you rather have second site or a 19 in intellego? Is it better to have the cursing ability or 15 levels of mentem and 8 in all of the techniques?

I think that after fifteen years the hermetic magus would both have more depth in a specialty (over level 20 counting affinities and pussiant) and more breadth by having moderate scores (7-12) in several arts outside of their specialty with non-negligable skill (4-6) in many of the rest. I can't see the supernatural ability laden magus having the same quantity of power.

Furthermore, if the forest paths in GotF and Holy Magic in RoP Divine are any indication, magi can get more abilites even without refraining from buying arts at character generation.

"That's certainly possible under the rules but I'm not yet convinced it's a chioce which is munchkiny rather than one that is crazily impractical."

There are, of course, plenty of mitigating factors to think about, which can shift the balance one way or another: What resources do your characters have available to learn their Abilities or Arts from in terms of texts or teachers? Likewise, what Supernatural Abilities or special Hermetic mysteries does your magus have available to learn in the first place? Both people with Supernatural Abilities and funky mysteries can teach you to do things that Hermetic magic can't, making them attractive. That said, like you I wouldn't minimise my learning of Arts at character creation in the vain hope of finding a character who could teach me the Supernatural Abilities I was wanting at the start of the game...

Niall

Many interresting things have been written during this discussion.
On the subject of the Gruagachan I have had the following thought:
Damhan-allaidh was/is a powerful Gruagach. He refused to join the order and waged a war against the Order of Hermes in Scotland. He was so succesful that he on several occasions drove back the forces of Pralix of Tytalus, destroyed several covenants and was considered a serious threat to the order as a whole.
I wonder then, could he have done this if he didn't have the gift or any kind of magic resistance?
In my opinion no, he couldnt have.

I believe that Gruagachan/Trollsynir should definently have the gift, and if a PC should occupy the magus slot, and not be a gifted companion.
There must afterall be some hedge wizards with the gift out there somewere.
And should a Gruagach want to learn Hermetic magic, then let him try. In order to open the arts, as in the rules for training an apprentice, the magi would need an extreme InVi lab total to accomplish this. Take for instance a Gruagach with the following supernatural abilities: Shapeshifter, Dowsing and Second Sight. The magi who wants to open the Gruagach's arts would need a InVi labtotal of 50+ and 100+ if the Gruagach wants to keep his supernatural abilities. Where in previous editions of the game Gruagach and Hermetic magic was incompatible for no explained reason, it is now just not possible under normal circumstances to teach a Gruagach Hermetic magic... Maybe Bonisagus had a sufficient lab total to do this.

I also do not see a serious problem with giving Gruagachan a universal magic resistance in the form they had in 3rd/4th edition. It is a weak MR and takes alot of experience spent in the Gruagach's three main abilities to be of any significance. Especially now since the cost of increasing abilities has increased dramatically. A Gruagach's MR will never be anywhere near that of a Hermetic Magus' Parma. And Hermetic magi have, as someone pointed out, Penetration. I also see no reason why they shouldn't be able to learn Parma if they choose to join the order.
But can they learn Penetration?
Initially I would say no. But im not sure.

On the subject of Gruagach bieng immortal. In 3rd/4th edition Gruagachs and Trollsynir could have an External Soul. I always liked this idea, since the concept of placing your soul in an object and thus bieng immortal as long as the object is kept safe is old. Many ancient legends and myths contain evil wizards who have done this with the heroes having to find the soulstone, so why not in an RPG that is all about magic?
Should PC's be able to do this? I dont see why not. As someone mentioned, very few campaigns last for centuries anyway. And I would think it to be a minor breakthrough to discover a way to use Perdo Vim to severe the connection and instantly kill the "immortal" target.
But how difficult should it be to get a soulstone?
And is it possible to do with Hermetic magic?
The lesser limit of the soul, as described in the rulebook states that magi cannot create souls. It doesn't say that Hermetic magic can't effect the soul. So it seems to me that it is possible to create a soulstone with Hermetic magic, similar to moving a persons mind into an object with mentem magic.
On a side note, this would also mean that it is possible to enchant souls.

Hail Eris!
Flargius

I'm to interested in my new books (HoH:TL & GoF)to say much on the matter, but I have to agree wit Flargius premise concerning Gru's learning Hermetic Magic. I think using the Ars5 rules is a perfectly acceptable format. It essentially says it is possible, but nobody alive has the stats to do it. If you do have the stats, kudus. When your done training your student, tell us the Secret of Life then take over the world, because *YOU* are clearly thee man.

Concerning enchanting the soul. Hmmmm. I grow more skeptical. Ultimately if I'm throwing in an opinion out, I'm of the camp of "Problem? What Problem?"

True Lineages and Guardians of the Forest clearly establish that the Founders were *exceptional*. They were powerful practicioners of Hedge Magics or Mysteries and learned the Hermetic System later. During their lives numerous founders designed and created spells that fell outside the Hermetic System. The books clearly detail that while creating these exceptional spells the Founders may not have even considered that what they were doing was exceptional or unrepeatable. The Founders represent the best of the Pre-Hermetic World, and the 'New' Heremtic System. They are the Captain Kirks (Youngest Captain of a Star Ship) and Luke Skywalkers (Farmboy that can kill womprats/Deathstars) of Mythic Europe.

I am an adamant believer in repeatable consistent mechanical ruleings, but I don't think the mechanics of the game 'Ars Magica' is obligated to provide us with rules to build the Founders. In fact I would rather that it does not. Because we all know as soon as you can build it, someone will want to play it. And I am not interested in fighting with my players over why I won't allow them to have powers and abilities that (fill in your Favorite Founder here) had. While I understand the frustration that Ars5 doesn't allow for the construction of Uber-'Multi Class' Magi, I have to point out, that's a *good* thing. Such abominations are a clear way to raise Atlantis, Sink Paris, and generally cause a lot of headaches.

Chuck

>>>But how difficult should it be to get a soulstone?
And is it possible to do with Hermetic magic? <<<

The ability/procedure is called 'External Soul', but whether it truly involves the 'soul', as referred to by the 'Limit of the Soul', is undecided in canon iirc.

It is a process whereby the magician becomes ageless and physically immoral; there is no necessary link between this and what Christian theologians define as the soul. Currently the link is just in the labelling.

It should also by pointed out that the primary limit on Hermetic lifetime is Warping. Trollsynir et al suffer badly from Warping and eventually become NPCs. The Trollsynir were designed to have roughly the same or less (active) lifetime as a Hermetic. Only by not practicing magic could a Trollsynir prevent becoming a creature indefinitely.

Regards

- David W

"Damhan-allaidh was/is a powerful Gruagach."

Yes, although this is only clearly stated in ArM4 LoFaI as IIRC the original LotN sourcebook was a little bit vague about the Spider's oigins.

"I believe that Gruagachan/Trollsynir should definently have the gift, and if a PC should occupy the magus slot, and not be a gifted companion."

Yes, definitely occupy the magus slot but perhaps as a "non-Hermetic" magus? Gifted but instead of learning the "Hermetic Tradition", the gruagach learns a "Pictish Tradition" comprising of intially Curse, Gift, Shapeshift and Second Sight and the ability to learn a selection of "Favoured Abilities" without the usual penalties for learning Supernatural Abilities (ArM5, p169).

As to being Gifted?

Further thoughts (see my above posts)

Depends on whether you think the ability to learn Supernatural Abilities during play without spending a Virtue in character creation or being initiated into a Mystery should be unique to posessing the Gift. There's already a precedent in RoP:tD where holy characters can learn *Divine* (as opposed to Magic-aligned) Supernatural Abilities if they possess True Faith - but are penalised similarly for pre-existing scores unless they choose from a single holy tradition's set of "Favoured Abilities".

If you make "Gruagach" a Special Virtue that allows learning a specific list of Magic-aligned Supernatural "Favoured Abilities" from a "Pictish Tradition" without penalty (ie as Arcane Abilities effectively) and defines the character as a "non-Hermetic magus" ie. occupying a character's magus-slot, they don't actually need to be Gifted (in the ArM5 sense).

In LotN gruagach don't initially suffer from the adverse "Magical Air" efect of the Gift but gain this and ultimately "Blatant Gift" over time through magical botches. All this is in ArM3/ArM4 terms - translated into ArM5 terms this model presumes that all Gruagach are initially *Gently Gifted* (unlikely, given the supposed rarity of this in other traditions such as the Mercurians) OR they don't possess the Gift but gain Flaws through Warping as *mundanes*, which is very neatly handled in the ArM5 rules.

Trollsynir work similarly, but already begin with Magical Air.

As pointed out effectively a Hermetic magus learns 15 "Favoured Abilities" without penalty - the 15 Hermetic Arts, but ahs a great deal of trouble learning any additional Supernatural Abilities without Mystery Initiation or taking them via Virtues at character creation (essentially reflecting either initiated abilities taught by their master's lineage ie. lineage specific mysteries in effect or pre-existing Abilities that have been preserved by their master's high level InVI total when opening their Hermetic Arts).

"Where in previous editions of the game Gruagach and Hermetic magic was incompatible for no explained reason, it is now just not possible under normal circumstances to teach a Gruagach Hermetic magic... Maybe Bonisagus had a sufficient lab total to do this."

Despite myself, I think this also works though.

It's a great Story idea - after all the original LotN supplement had a Clan MacGruagach member fostered out in House Bonisagus who was dedicated to trying to incorporate gruagach magic into Hermetic theory. This, or training an existing Gifted variant gruagach or potential gruagach more easily in Hermetic Magic by devising a unique ritual would make an excellent project for a Major Breakthrough using the HoH:TL rules IMO.

Of course, this scenario is only possible if you make Gruagach Gifted which I don't think is really necessary...

"I also do not see a serious problem with giving Gruagachan a univrsal magic resistance in the form they had in 3rd/4th edition. It is a weak MR and takes alot of experience spent in the Gruagach's three main abilities to be of any significance. Especially now since the cost of increasing abilities has increased dramatically. A Gruagach's MR will never be anywhere near that of a Hermetic Magus' Parma. And Hermetic magi have, as someone pointed out, Penetration."

The Line Editor disagress.

I and several others have put forth these and similar arguments before but canonically in ArM5, no non-Divine, non-Infernal, non-Hermetic source can grant "universal" MR ie. hedge wizards aligned to the Faerie or Magic realms can't have equivalent protection to Parma.

Currently, being able to have a general MR effective against say Faerie effects and/or Magic effects (but not Divine or Infernal magic) has not been explicitly excluded or ruled out but is unlikely to be realised. I think a direct conversion of ArM4 gruagach MR to ArM5 MR vs Faerie AND Magic (but not Divine OR Infernal) would work fine in the majority of Sagas, while skating below the Hermetic ceiling.

As you point out Penetration is the real issue here.

Hermetics can generate much higher Penetration totals through their Art scores alone compared to most hedge wizards.

Although Penetration may not be specific to Hermetics, none of the non-Hermetic holy character examples or mythic companions in RoP:tD have the Penetration Ability.

I'd argue gruagach should use Potency or Speak Pictish instead of Penetration in working their magic (thus retaining the flavour of the old ArM4 mechanic) and would have limited Arcane Connection and Sympathetic Bonus options - specific to certain circumstances like related, knows targets birth-name, belonging to the same clane etc. but not the astrological or image based sympathetic bonuses.

They'd still be susceptible to the Divine and the Infernal which would fit the flavour of their magic well and justify why Davnalleous was such a threat to Pralix's original army.

"I also see no reason why they shouldn't be able to learn Parma if they choose to join the order."

Neither Gruagach (directly stated in LotN) or Trollsynir could learn Parma Magica in previous editions of Ars because they had inherent "universal" MR anyway. With the restrictions on MR in ArM5 this becomes less of an issue perhaps.

The problem arises when you link learning Parma Magica to Hermetic Magic and having the ArM5 Gift. If Gruagach aren't Gifted, they can't learn Parma even though it's only an Arcane Ability and their specialty is effectively learning Supernatural Abilities as if they were Arcane Abilities...

"On the subject of Gruagach bieng immortal. In 3rd/4th edition Gruagachs and Trollsynir could have an External Soul."

GotF has a Virtue similar in effect gained through a Mystery initiation - Immortality of the Forest (p38), where you gain Warping instead of having to make an Aging roll so there's at least a precedent for this now in ArM5. It makes a great inner "Gruagach Mystery" - which also seems to restrict it to being acquired in the course of play, after acquiring a Flaw and undergoing some Ordeal first - an excellent Story element for such an unusual power.

Regards,

Jarkman

//Yes, definitely occupy the magus slot but perhaps as a "non-Hermetic" magus? Gifted but instead of learning the "Hermetic Tradition", the gruagach learns a "Pictish Tradition" comprising of intially Curse, Gift, Shapeshift and Second Sight and the ability to learn a selection of "Favoured Abilities" without the usual penalties for learning Supernatural Abilities (ArM5, p169).//

I trhink this will work nicely.
But instead of having favoured abilities they could learn without penalty, I was tinking of having them subtract their score in Gruagach Wisdom from the penalty when learning new abilities. And possibly speak pictish as well.

//In LotN gruagach don't initially suffer from the adverse "Magical Air" efect of the Gift but gain this and ultimately "Blatant Gift" over time through magical botches. All this is in ArM3/ArM4 terms - translated into ArM5 terms this model presumes that all Gruagach are initially *Gently Gifted* (unlikely, given the supposed rarity of this in other traditions such as the Mercurians) OR they don't possess the Gift but gain Flaws through Warping as *mundanes*, which is very neatly handled in the ArM5 rules.//

I agree that it is a bit extreme if they all start with the gentle gift, but i still think they should have the "normal" gift That they gain warping as in the rules for mundanes is a good idea. I was also thinking that they should gain warp points whenever they botch one of their abilities. And that the flaws they gain should be ones that make them more and more monstrous.

//Currently, being able to have a general MR effective against say Faerie effects and/or Magic effects (but not Divine or Infernal magic) has not been explicitly excluded or ruled out but is unlikely to be realised. I think a direct conversion of ArM4 gruagach MR to ArM5 MR vs Faerie AND Magic (but not Divine OR Infernal) would work fine in the majority of Sagas, while skating below the Hermetic ceiling.//

Good idea! I will definently use this. A resistance against magic and faerie but not divine and infernal.

//I'd argue gruagach should use Potency or Speak Pictish instead of Penetration in working their magic (thus retaining the flavour of the old ArM4 mechanic) and would have limited Arcane Connection and Sympathetic Bonus options - specific to certain circumstances like related, knows targets birth-name, belonging to the same clane etc. but not the astrological or image based sympathetic bonuses.//

I agree. Potency instead of penetration. I'm not quit sure what I was thinking when suggesting they should be able to learn penetration when they have a potency ability. But is it too powerful if both potency and speak pictish are added to the total?

//Neither Gruagach (directly stated in LotN) or Trollsynir could learn Parma Magica in previous editions of Ars because they had inherent "universal" MR anyway. With the restrictions on MR in ArM5 this becomes less of an issue perhaps.

The problem arises when you link learning Parma Magica to Hermetic Magic and having the ArM5 Gift. If Gruagach aren't Gifted, they can't learn Parma even though it's only an Arcane Ability and their specialty is effectively learning Supernatural Abilities as if they were Arcane Abilities...//

As I still think Gragach should be gifted, and so have the potential to learn Parma.
I agree with you that rules for Gruagachan can be made to work without them bieng gifted. And that it isn't really neccesary.

But they are what remains of Pictish priesthood and Pictish wizardry, and the issue IMO ammounts to when does an ancient non-hermetic lineage of wizards have the gift and when dont they. For eksampel:
If Diedné hadn't been a founder would druids then be gifted? German shapeshifters are just that, shapeshifters. This is a major virtue and so it isn't neccesary for them to be gifted, in order to make them work as characters, just to have this virtue. But Björnaer was gifted and learned hermetic magic, so it is an natural assumption that german shapeshifters had the gift.

Hail Eris!
Flargius

"But instead of having favoured abilities they could learn without penalty, I was tinking of having them subtract their score in Gruagach Wisdom from the penalty when learning new abilities. And possibly speak pictish as well."

I wondered that initially at first, but its probably unnecessary. Using the ability of the Gift to learn new Supernatural Abilities, with Favoured Abilities from Tradition mechanic works well enough (assuming Gruagach are Gifted). The alternative is to say that Gruagach is a special Free Virtue that allows the learning of Supernatural Talents but not Hermetic Magic (and therefore Parma).

I'd strictly limit the Supernatural Abilities that could be learnt though to a list that is "Pictish" in flavour: Curse, Geas, Transform etc. rather than just any old Ability or things could get out of hand.

Perhaps exceptional gruagach could be Gifted, but this would be a near unique Story Event and of little impact in most games.

"I agree that it is a bit extreme if they all start with the gentle gift, but i still think they should have the "normal" gift That they gain warping as in the rules for mundanes is a good idea."

This is the default Warping option - Wizard's Twilight is a specifically Hermetic side-effect of knowing Magic Theory etc. Divine characters have specific Divine Warping instead of normal warping - I'd like to tinker with Divine Gloom and Divine Form to model gruagach/trollsynir affliction but here's an idea so far (assuming non-Gifted gruagach):

A gruagach's Warping Score reflects their degree of (Bestial) Affliction - in effect their Warping Score acts as a penalty to social interaction rolls, much the same as the Gift or Blatant Gift does. This penalty is additive to any pre-existing Flaws or those gained through Warping that affect social interaction such as Magical Air etc. For each point of Warping score (ie each point in Affliciton score) the gruagach gains also gains one notable physical trait to reflect their increasingly bestial nature (use suggestions from LoFaI for trollsynir perhaps). Once ther Warping score reaches 5, each additional gain in Warping score adds one to a new Personality trait: Beastial, reflecting the magician's rising bestial nature and insanity. When a Warping score of 10 is reached (ie A Beastial Personality score of 5), the gruagach's mind is irrevocably lost and he degenerates into a mindless beast.

Damhan-allaidh is an example of a gruagach who has reached a Warping score of 10 (albeit he's probably strongly Infernally Warped as well, but that possibly came later).

Trollsynir use the same system, but gain a Troll Personality trait score and degenerate into trolls when they reach a Warping score of 10. They should also probably begin with the Magical Air Flaw (in ArM5 this is equivalent to the Blatant Gift equivalent they possess in ArM4, as the Gift had a lesser effect in ArM4 as noted).

Essentially this is just a reworking of the existing LoFaI Trollskap Affliction mechanic, updated into ArM5 terms, which in turn is a revision of the original gruagach rules.

"I agree. Potency instead of penetration."

Actually, it seems that Penetration is not a specifically Hermetic ABility - this has been clarified by one of the authors of RoP:tD. Holy characters can have Penetration and learn from Hermetics or books written by Hermetics presumably. Perhaps a loss of flavour in some ways, but then again the sympathetic magic principles underlying Penetration would seem reaasonably universal across traditions.

So gruagach *should* have Penetration instead of Potency in canon.

Personally I'd prefer them to have Potency as a "Penetration-ability substitute" and to be only able to use a limited array of Arcane Connections and Sympathetic Connection bonuses (names, blood relation but not astrology etc.) If gruagach magic is so different to Hermetic magic, I'd expect them to find standard teaching sources of Peentration to be at least "Incomprehensible" ie halve the Source Quality and vice versa. It's a bit more complicated this way though.

"But is it too powerful if both potency and speak pictish are added to the total?"

Use the Method + Power paradigm in RoP:tD:

- Exceptional Talents become Powers
- Potency (or Speak Pictish) becomes the Supernatural Method used to invoke the various magical effects of the gruagach.

This keeps the tota:

Cha + 1st Ability (Method) + 2nd Ability (Power)

leaving Penetration to be calculated separately with either Penetration or Potency (if using Speak Pictish as the Ability score associated with the gruagach's prime Supernatural Method).

Non-Gifted companion level non-gruagach might learn the a Supernatural Method associated with Speak Pictish, let's call it "Recital" and could perhaps use it with a few Supernatural Powers like Curse or Gift to reflect existing pre-ArM5 related hedge magicians.

If you want to retain the improved Shapeshifting ability of a gruagach in ArM4, make it a Major Virtue gained only through Mystery induction that uses the base Shapeshift score instead of a new Ability and use a modified version of the MuCo guidelines to determine effects.

"As I still think Gruagach should be gifted, and so have the potential to learn Parma. I agree with you that rules for Gruagachan can be made to work without them bieng gifted. And that it isn't really neccesary."

Yes IMO it's not really necessary, but it might be interesting to allow an *exceptional* gruagach to be Gifted, reflecting the old "Originally trained as a Gruagach" Flaw in flavour..

It's quite dependent on how the line editor decides to handle MR for non-Hermetics aligned with the Magic or Faerie realms.

"If Diedné hadn't been a founder would druids then be gifted?"

Possibly, but not all necessarily. Druids could be another example of non-Hermetic magi that could learn a specific Tradition of Favoured Abilities without necessarily being Gifted. However some could be Gifted, and Diedne could be one of these. Essentially a Virtue "Druid" allowing learning a set list of Supernatural Abilities as Arcane Abilities but not other Supernatural Abilities would work.

Perhaps all Druids were Gently Gifted - again unlikely, but perhaps most "Druids" were in fact of lesser ranks (bards, ovates, seers etc.) and were merely companions or Mythic Companions with only a few, very powerful (Gently) Gifted individuals capable of grasping the full extent of Abilities of their Celtic tradition.

Perhaps a Druidic Mystery allowed some mitigation of the Gift's effects where it applied to followers of their pagan religion?

The Gift could be redefined as the unique power to learn Supernatural Abilities from outside your tradition or intiial tarining, albeit with difficulty through normal learning (ArM5 p169) or via sacrifice and Mystery Initiation. Characters without the Gift wouldn't then be able to be initiated into magic foreign to their initial tradition and many might have the "Magical Air" flaw as a mandatory part of their starting package, effectively simulating the adverse effects of the Gift anyway.

This might work, although I suspect it somewhat un...[Message truncated]

> "True Lineages and Guardians of the Forest clearly establish that
> the Founders were *exceptional*."

You know, I didn't get that from either book.

Bonisagus and Trianoma, yes. Guernicus not so much. Mercere also, not so much. Tremere not at all really - he was just good at politics. His brother was a nastier person than he was, certainly.

Mercere created the Mercere Portals not realizeing the work fell outside normal Hermetic Parameters. This and Mutantum Magics suggest to me that Mercere was exceptional.

Mystically speaking, Gurnicus seems to be the closeset to a normal charcter. Clearly smart enough and charismatic enough to develop and convince others that a system of law was needed, I agree that mystically speaking Gurnicus is the least exceptional.

The point I was trying to focus on was the notion that the Founders fall outside the mechanical character construction rules of Ars5. I don't feel the rules of Ars5 are obligated to statistically explain the founders. Part of the on going argument in this thread is the fact that Founders don't 'add up' by the book. I suggest that being the founders, being 'exceptional', the mechanical rules of Ars 5 is not obligated to detail their stats or explain how they work (mechanically).

Chuck

Bonisagus is way to cool to be generated by the 5th ed character generation rules.

The purpose of the 5th ed rules is to allow a balanced gaming experience.

Thank-you come again