I know ... and yes, again.

Here is the problem:

MuVi: Wizard boost augments the power of a spell by one mag. It can affect up to its level.

Let us take a spell of level 5 and a Wizboost of lvl 10. When using the wizard boost on the level 5 spell, the original spell gains raw power equivalent of a level 10 spell.

What happens to the penetration of that boosted spell ?

1- Penetration is lowered by 5
2- No changes
3- Uses the penetration of the MuVi spell (A bit strange option but could be interesting)

What do you think?

I think option 2 (no changes) for two reasons: there is nothing in the rules that implies that a wizard's boosted spell has penetration calculated differently than any other spell and it makes for similer more easily communicated rules.

I do think that a creo vim spell that raises the penetration of the spell with which it is cast would be a workable idea. This would be Cr Vi because it makes the affected spell a more perfect example of it's type.

It's 2.

Wizard's Boost boosts the effect of a spell, not its Level. But the Spell Level is used to calculate penetration.

Kind regards,

Berengar

Agreed, no changes.

Chuck

I think it is #2 by the rules, and that #2 is more game balanced also.

It would take a different MuVi spell to augment the penetration of a spell. Tough I do not dislike the idea of using CrVi to do so... ;)

//I think it is #2 by the rules, and that #2 is more game balanced also.//

just to pont out that option one & 3 would actually reduce the penetration total.

Well option 3 would make it vary a bit sint you would take your penetration total from the MuVi penetration total instead of the original spell FoTe. but the MuVi spell is always of higher level...

//I think it is #2 by the rules, and that #2 is more game balanced also.//

"just to point out that options 1 & 3 would actually reduce the penetration total."

In my opinion, MuVi needs all the help that it can get (so does creo Vim).

Are you crazy ?
MuVi is so much powerfull that I was thinking of allowing it only for Archmage and the like.... :p

Joking a bit, but not that much ;)

MuVi sucks big time...

My SG Just does not see it for some reason. to further my point, his NPC is an aquam specialist...

BTW I agree, CrVi should be the way to perfect the spell & augment penetration. Something like :

CrVi (Form)
Base General: For each Magnetude of this spell, remove one level of penatily to penetration up to the level of the spell targetted spell.

Further increses are outside the bounds of perfection and fall into Muto domain.

----------------------------------------

In MuVi it would look something like:

MuVi (Form)
Base General: I need to think about it...

//BTW I agree, CrVi should be the way to perfect the spell & augment penetration.

After reflection on the matter, it might not be so much a matter of perfecting the spell then a matter of giving penetration to the spell.

I think there are four ways we can imagige giving penetration to a spell:

1- MuVi: Same as wizard boost except just for penetration instead of general power (+5/+10)
2- PeVi: Attack the resistance that the spell might encounter. It might be required to be #### into the creation of the spell (adding the Pe rq)
3-ReVi: Same as PeVi except it would suppress the resistence
4-CrVi: Perfecting the spell's penetration. This is the option I dislike the most since it would suggest that all spells are flawed when it concerns penetration. This could be but I would think itwould require a breakthru of some sorth to fix the 'problem'.

What do you think ?

"I think there are four ways we can imagige giving penetration to a spell:

1- MuVi: Same as wizard boost except just for penetration instead of general power (+5/+10)"

this one is a maybee for me. If I had a player who wanted to do it I'd be okay with it because I don't like to be petty but on mailing bullitan boards a certain amount of pedantery can enliven discussion. Muto changes a spell in an unnatural way. Yet the spell already has penetration there fore I don't belive that nuto is justified.

"2- PeVi: Attack the resistance that the spell might encounter. It might be required to be #### into the creation of the spell (adding the Pe rq)"

Well, you can use wind of mundane silence to tear down someone's parma i can imagine developing specific spells to rip down other sorts of resistance as well. You could I suppose develop them to be cast simultainiously with other spells but the examples of things like wizards boost that are cast with other spells may not be aplicable to any spell that you want. I might require a level in mastery in the spell with the special ability "cast at the same time that you cast another spell and you'll screw it up if you fail your concentration roll" (then again I might not I'm a notorious softie as a storyguide). Alternativly you could put in a magic item with an intelego vim or intellego mentem trigger spell to trigger it whenever you cast an offensive spell.

"3-ReVi: Same as PeVi except it would suppress the resistence"

I don't see Rego a rego vim spell surpressing resistance unless the rego vim spell penetrates te resistance to begin with. So yes this would unquestionably work but it may be too difficult to be practical.

"4-CrVi: Perfecting the spell's penetration. This is the option I dislike the most since it would suggest that all spells are flawed when it concerns penetration. This could be but I would think itwould require a breakthru of some sort to fix the 'problem'."

I wouldn't say that the spell s flawed but the casting. Someone who uses a CrVi spell to cast a spell with 5 higher penetration is casting a spell in the same way that a magus with 5 more points in the arts would cast it. (I would design the spell to work in a similar wat to wizard's boost and add five to the penetration).

"Are you crazy ?
MuVi is so much powerfull that I was thinking of allowing it only for Archmage and the like.... :p

Joking a bit, but not that much ;)"

I have evidence that supports both sides of the "am I crazy" question.

What have you had Muto Vim casters do appart from Wiz boosting their own (and other people's)formulaics?

//You could I suppose develop them to be cast simultainiously with other spells but the examples of things like wizards boost that are cast with other spells may not be aplicable to any spell that you want. //

The thing is that if you read the MuVi guidelines it says that MuVi spell are designed to modify other spells. I don't know if you if you can do the same with other FoTe. What I mean is can you really cast a PeVi to remove the magical traces of the spell that you are casting ? I alway had a feeling this was reserved to MuVi... I might be wrong...

This is why I taught that the best way to go along was to create a spell that had was created with one or two extra mag to represent the intergrated Perdo spell.

Ex. PeCo(Vi) is a Perdo Corpus spell that causes one medium wound and also intergrates a PeVi spell designed to cut thru the Corpus resistance (arts or a magus / natural resistance of other creatures in corpus)

The spell needs refinement I admit... if it can exist at all.

//Alternativly you could put in a magic item with an intelego vim or intellego mentem trigger spell to trigger it whenever you cast an offensive spell.//

This is specified in the MuVi guidelines. Spells that affect another spell can only affect other spells the magical object. This means that your spell would only enhence other spells that are already invested in your magical object.

//"4-CrVi: Perfecting the spell's penetration. This is the option I dislike the most since it would suggest that all spells are flawed when it concerns penetration. This could be but I would think itwould require a breakthru of some sort to fix the 'problem'."

I wouldn't say that the spell s flawed but the casting. Someone who uses a CrVi spell to cast a spell with 5 higher penetration is casting a spell in the same way that a magus with 5 more points in the arts would cast it. (I would design the spell to work in a similar wat to wizard's boost and add five to the penetration).//

Well defended. If you can affect spells beeing casted with CrVi this it could be an option.

"//Alternativly you could put in a magic item with an intelego vim or intellego mentem trigger spell to trigger it whenever you cast an offensive spell.//

This is specified in the MuVi guidelines. Spells that affect another spell can only affect other spells the magical object. This means that your spell would only enhance other spells that are already invested in your magical object."

I was unclear. I did not mean to imply a parma ripper spell in the item would enhance the spell you are casting. I meant a perdo vim spell that would have the same target as the spell that you are casting and perhaps go off a fraction of a second earlier (although this "fraction of a second earlier" may cause difficulties in construction).

"This is why I taught that the best way to go along was to create a spell that was created with one or two extra mag to represent the intergrated Perdo spell."

With one or two extras magnetudes of the spell would it really help the penetration total? I think that if I were rules storyguide and deciding what goes in the game and someone came up to me with this idea, the effect would not be worth the cost YMMV.

//I was unclear. I did not mean to imply a parma ripper spell in the item would enhance the spell you are casting. I meant a perdo vim spell that would have the same target as the spell that you are casting and perhaps go off a fraction of a second earlier (although this "fraction of a second earlier" may cause difficulties in construction).//

Ah... seems good.

//With one or two extras magnetudes of the spell would it really help the penetration total? I think that if I were rules storyguide and deciding what goes in the game and someone came up to me with this idea, the effect would not be worth the cost YMMV.//

In 5th ed spell construction guidelines you can intergrate a spell efect of level 20 or less into another spell @ a cost of one mag. If the added effect would be of more that 20 levels it cost 2 mag. I just tried to construct a spell using these guidelines that would bring down MR but it does not add up to be cost effective... Oh well..

@WilliamEx
"MuVi sucks big time...
My SG Just does not see it for some reason. to further my point, his NPC is an aquam specialist..."

I think the raw strenght of a particular combination of a technique and a form depends more on what you do with it then on the rules concerning it.
And Aquam rocks !! :p

"CrVi should be the way to perfect the spell & augment penetration."

I don't think so. I see a MuVi spell to boost penetration as if it lowered the level of that spell by one magnetude, without changing it's effect. It equals *about* the power of a wizard's boost (you could invent a spell 5 level lower then cast the Wiz boost = 5 more of penetration). It respect the general intent of the MuVi guidelines.

Otherwise, i would't accept a spell that boost the casting total of a mage. Not without some fondamental research at least !

@erik_tyrrell
"What have you had Muto Vim casters do appart from Wiz boosting their own (and other people's)formulaics?"

I leave that to my players to answer that sort of questions. I'm sure they will think of something. If not, then they'll do other things and then the problem is solved ! Gna-ah-ah **fool's laughting**

A part of the fun in this game is to use imagination to find new type of spells. My players have developed more aptitude than me to do that. I think it's normal. =)

@WilliamEx
"Ex. PeCo(Vi) is a Perdo Corpus spell that causes one medium wound and also intergrates a PeVi spell designed to cut thru the Corpus resistance "

Well, to give one mag. to a spell to get 5 more pen isn't very usefull, as Tyrell said.

But I wouldn't accept it because it has two effects too much apart from each other. One's cannot do a CrIg(Co) spell that create a fireball and heal a wound at the same time.(this may be a house rule, i don't know.)