There will be a book houses of hermes: Mystery cults which will describe the Verditius, Criamon, Merinita, and Bjornaer.

I don't believe that any of these will be covered in Mysteries revised.

This suggests that there will be three books to detail the various Houses. I hadn't considered this. While I've heard great things about True Lineages and have always thought each house could merit it's own book I never wanted to buy 12 books, even buying three books is alot when times are tough. Erg. I need to wrap my head around this. Does anyone know which book might be next? The Mystery Cults or the Socities?

Last comment/complaint. Does anyone think it's awefully convenient that the 12 House of Hermes fall into three neat groups made up four houses? While it works and may make things simpler for newbies, I find it slightly forced.

Chuck

//Does anyone know which book might be next? The Mystery Cults or the Socities?//

Yes. Its written up here http://redcap.org/FAQ/FAQ3b.html#next and maintained by Sir Garlon.
So indeed the Mystery Cults will come into the open some time before the Societies.

The Houses go back all the way through the history of ArM - so its just magick that they fall into line that neatly, isn't it? ;-)

Kind regards,

Berengar

Thanks for the update. This poses several more questions.

First, I didn't know the Berkeley list was still active. Do I dare sign up?

From memory, the number of mails sent in a day could be more than I can bear.

Second, another Covenants book! Any chance this one will be better than say... any of the previous covenant rules?

I'm sure this book is in the works, but I always thought a covenant should be built like a Character with Character Stats even Confidence, Decreptitude, Virtues and Flaws. But my rules tinkering rarely goes beyond tinkering.

Third, an Infernal book.

That reminds me, I've recently read through Black Monks. Has anyone used Diabolocists as written up in Black Monks?

Those are some bad mo'fos! I really like them, a true menace to Hermetics given time and numbers. I'm curious if writing them up is problematic, it seems labor intensive if you want to do it by the book.

Chuck

//That reminds me, I've recently read through Black Monks. Has anyone used Diabolocists as written up in Black Monks?
Those are some bad mo'fos! I really like them, a true menace to Hermetics given time and numbers. I'm curious if writing them up is problematic, it seems labor intensive if you want to do it by the book.//

I use the rules for Diabolists from Black Monks. So far the PC's in my campaign have encountered and battled two such diabolists.
I find the rules pretty cool and balanced.
And yes, it is labour intensive to write them up by the book. It takes alot of time to create an experienced diabolist.

Flarg

"First, I didn't know the Berkeley list was still active. Do I dare sign up?

From memory, the number of mails sent in a day could be more than I can bear."

It has much less traffic now than it did in 97-02. You'll get from 0-25 messages a day, typically you'll get about 6.

"Second, another Covenants book! Any chance this one will be better than say... any of the previous covenant rules?"

There's always a chance. I think that stuff gets playtested a bit better nowadays than it did when any of the previous covenant rules was published (with the exception of the rules in the 5th ed book).

"I'm sure this book is in the works, but I always thought a covenant should be built like a Character with Character Stats even Confidence, Decreptitude, Virtues and Flaws. But my rules tinkering rarely goes beyond tinkering."

The only thing that I've read David say about it is that it will have the fifth ed version of the lab personalization rules, he may have said that it will have the expanded library rules as well (I don't recall). So I cann't shed any light regarding the actual nature of the covenant rules that we're going to get.

Yes, I've used them.
They took a bit of work to get them together, but the extra time I put into them made them fairly interesting opponents for the PC's.

Ed

"The Houses go back all the way through the history of ArM - so its just magick that they fall into line that neatly, isn't it? ;-)"

Well not _all_ of the way through (they aren't in first edition).

I think that the Mystery cult split was obvious and that it was talked about in fourth edition (Some of these houses were written up as fourth edition mysteries in Hermes portal). The split of the remaining houses into Soceitas and Lineages I suspect came about from a desire to fit the houses into three equal sized groups. the division that they made seems to be a good one but they didn't have to make it.

Owning all editions of the game, I knew that fact and didn't catch it! I suppose that's a testament to my ageing mind and it's failure to work.

The Soceitas are an interesting idea, and while it's a convenient fit it's slightly too convenient for my personal tastes. Besides, having played a Tytalus for so many years to find out my character is part of a ranshackle group rather than a 'true lineage' makes me feel like a just got robbed.

My pride aside, I'm curious how many of you have incorporated the new editions into existing campaigns. Have you used "Retcon", retroactive continuity and said 'the new material has always existed." Or has the new material been introduced as something new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retcon

For instance, my campaign has run steady since the early 1990's. When we started playing Regios didn't exist. That is, we were gaming Ars prior to Regios being introduced into the game. Anyway, when we bought the module that introduced them (Mythic Places?) we decided that Regios always existed, but the Order of Hermes hadn't discovered them. That is through out time magi had shifted between different 'worlds', but Magi hadn't figured these shifts were into Regios. When we bought Mythic Places, we had the Red Caps detail the Bonisagus discovery spreading the concept of Regios across the Order causing Magi every where to start exploring thier backyards looking for them.

When the Mysteries came out we Retconed the fact saying the Mysteries always existed and are known vaugely and discussed rarely given the nature of Mysteries. Futhermore we discussed the idea of do all the Mysteries exist or simply some of them? We chose the safe answer of the ones we use exist.

With 5th edition, we needed to incorporate a 'new' Parma and it's a debate we haven't resolved. In addition to this we've had to incorporate the premise of Lineage, Mystery, and Society. This again has been Retconed to say it's always existed, but lacking the books we are sort of making up as needed. For instance my character again is a Tytalus who is suppose to be a descended directly from Tytalus yet we have no plans to deny the premise that House Tytalus is a society. With that in mind, I am considering dividing House Tytalus into two groups "Patricians" or the royal line and "Plebs" the common Tytalus.

Did I have a question? Oh yeah, so how have the rest of you incorporated campaign changing canon material into your exisiting sagas?

Just curious,
Chuck

"The Soceitas are an interesting idea, and while it's a convenient fit it's slightly too convenient for my personal tastes. Besides, having played a Tytalus for so many years to find out my character is part of a ranshackle group rather than a 'true lineage' makes me feel like a just got robbed."

I'll play devil's advocate here.

I don't necessarily see the Societas as a "ramshakle group" Socetas are organizations that let in people who meet their criteria. It the Tytalus were to exalt lineage over competence they'd be betraying their core value. I wouldn't be surprised to find that house tytalus is the house that kicks people out the most readily. The only way to be true to the teachings of the founder is to make membership a privledge that is readily revoked rather than a right of blood.

That being said; there doubtless are Tytalus who are desended from the founder.

"Did I have a question? Oh yeah, so how have the rest of you incorporated campaign changing canon material into your exisiting sagas?"

You've been running the same sage since 1999!?! You lucky dog you!! the longest games I've been involved with were from 92-94 and 98-2000. We never had to do a rule set jump in play.

In our present game (running since January I think)we haven't had to do any retcon yet. We've always assumed that the setting has always been as each new suppliment makes it out to be. I've seen everything that was in previous editions and am somewhat prepared for it. Also we tend to get quite advanced notice of things comming down the pipe from Atlas (it helps to be a local).

> This suggests that there will be three books to detail the various
> Houses.

That's the offical word, yes. Give nthat HoH:TL has just sold through its run, I imagine cancelling the others due to a poor showing isn't on the cards at the moment.

> I hadn't considered this. While I've heard great things about True
> Lineages and have always thought each house could merit it's own
> book I never wanted to buy 12 books, even buying three books is
> alot when times are tough. Erg. I need to wrap my head around this.
> Does anyone know which book might be next? The Mystery Cults or the
> Socities?

The FAQ says Mystery Cults.

> Last comment/complaint. Does anyone think it's awefully convenient
> that the 12 House of Hermes fall into three neat groups made up
> four houses? While it works and may make things simpler for
> newbies, I find it slightly forced.

I'd note that in the history of the Order this has not been consistently true, because you are failing to account for the removal of Diedne (who I imagine were a Mystery Cult) and the addition of House Ex Miscelleana. That being said, there might have been some mythic significance to the number 12.

I've always wondered about the number 12. There are two points to consider, the authors of the game and then the game world perspective.

Ars orginally didn't have Houses, they were introduced in Ars2. I'm curious why Magi weren't aligned to signs of the zodiac, rather than houses. While I love the direction Mr. Tweet and Reign Dot Hagen took, it could have been easy to build an astrologically based system.

In the context of the game, it would have been very easy to use the color of astrology to establish Houses, and one could go further and say people are born into a House. That is they are a Virgo and follow the personality traits of a Virgo.

I'm like the system that developed, but back in those early days the game could have gone in numerous directions without changing the core rules. I ponder those possibilities sometimes. Hmmmmm.

Chuck

I believe the Houses were originally designed with astrological connotations in mind. If you look at the illustrations in the original /Order of Hermes/ book, there are astrological symbols drawn behind the symbol of each House. You might also check out the 2005-2006 Magae Magnae Magicae swimsuit calendar (from Hermes' Portal, the Ars Magica fan magazine, http://hermesportal.fr.st/), where we used the same astrological resonances to determine which Hermetic House was represented for each month.

ETA: /Swimsuit/ calendar. Very important. ;)

And how big an Arcane Connection to your House do you think you'd get if they all had Astrological Significance?
(Yeah i know the number is in the RAW):-)

Oddly inconvenient things like being Marched or Wizard Wars would be that much easier if the House could be targeted in this way.

Perhaps it's best if these things remain a Mystery.

I've got an OoH some where around here. I'll look for it and ponder.

And Hermes Portal, I forgot about that! A subscription runs out and where does my mind go?

Thanx!

Chuck

In light of the current game I take your meaning, but consider that way back when there were no rules for arcane connections. Even the Mysteries is essentially a recent addition to the game. Between Ars1 and 2 there was no conception of the Mystery's.

Ars 1 had no Houses. Ars 2 introduced the Houses with paragraph descriptions. Remember that Ars Magica existed before Vampire World of Darkness and the premise that a character should be apart of a family unit rather aligned to something such as "Good" or "Neutral". Ars Magica did it first!

With that in mind, when Ars 2 was written the potential existed to do anything with the game. Zodiac houses seem like a very mystical and sensible way to divide magi up. Instead they chose to create Founders.

I remember when Order of Hermes came out and people were mad because OoH didn't present the Houses in the same manner that people imagined them to be based on those one paragraph blurbs that was in Ars2. For what it's worth I learned this via new technology called "Internet".

So I think it's interesting that the authors of Ars chose to create 12 Houses based on Founders they invented. Perhaps it's because both men understand the collegiate structure and the influence a teacher has on a student.

Perhaps Reign Dot Hagen's vision for the Tremere demanded the presence of Houses based on Founders rather than Zodiac signs as he followed Ars up with World of Darkness and Tremere vampires.
Were the Houses based on Zodiac signs, it would be more difficult to explain a group of vampire wizards. What? The Cancer? The Sagitarius? Doesn't sound as scary does it?

This fact alone could have pushed for Founders rather than Zodiac signs. I've seen the work of both authors and I think at some point they must have considered the zodiac. As Erik Dahl pointed out, the zodiac is represented in OoH, a definitive book in the history of Ars Magica. Mr. Tweet authored this book and I think he would have some conceptual input into what sort of art should be in the book. If that point is true, then the zodiac signs in OoH isn't coincidence.

This leads me back to my point, being fully aware that they were creating the world of Ars Magica as they wrote it, the potential existed to develop a European Order of Wizards who's magic revolves around the Zodiac. It intrigues me that the authors chose not to pursue that path.

I'm glad they didn't, I like the Houses they created. I love the game they created. But I am also fascinated watching Ars evolve over the years. I remember adds for Order of Odin and some game where you'd play Grogs and Companions only Kings Something. These books could have taken Ars in a very different direction.

I got to play test Mysteries and I remember when I got my copy. I thought, "This changes everything." It did. It took Ars in a new direction. Ars 5 changed everything as well. Perhaps it was more subtle than people might imagined, but it incorporated the Mysteries into the game. This fact has allowed magic to be much more diversified than it was in the past. It also does it in a way that is (most of the time) mechanically sound. Furthermore, the introduction of Mystery 'rules' allows for the development of new types of magic and this is a point the old game had a hard time dealing with.

Rambling now. Given that further Houses of Hermes books are going to come out as well as Realms of Power, the game is still developing. It isn't static, it's still changing and I find that interesting. I guess my point is, given that Ars has changed over the years and I find it interesting to consider the game it *could* have become.

Chuck

Right, here we are in October...

I was chatting to one of my players over the weekend about the Mysteries. He's putting a story together for my character and of course, wouldn't it just be my luck, he's a theurgist.

So, it would be ideal if the book were looking to put in an appearance soon. I'm really looking forward to seeing the new edition.

Any further news? Any chance of a status update?

I spoke with Michele Nephew yesterday. She said that it hadn't gone to press yet. They'll put a notice on the web site when it does. Once they send it to the printer it will be four to six weeks before they get it back. They'll send it out immediately but it will still take a while to get through channels to your retailer.

Apparently they've been so busy that John has been wrking weekends just to put any time in on the Ars book at all. (Meaning it's awfully good news that Jeff Tibdall is back on board). There is the _possibility_ that Mysteries and covenants will go to press together. So at least covenants will be on time

Covenants is the book nobody is talking about, but I can't stop thinking about. The various covenant rules have all been the black bile of Ars Magica. I'm curious how these rules will differ. I don't have Revised Calebois, so I don't know if that book shows the new stats for covenants. If it does, I'd love to hear how they look.

My greatest fear is the new rules will take away my Uber Library (JOKING).

chuck

All the effort the guys at Atlas is putting in is very much appreciated. When you look at all the hastle they have with Gloom (unless of course the constant pained reports of delays and mishaps is all part of setting the ambiance for the game) you see what their up against.

So, a couple of months then. I think I can wait... just.

// (unless of course the constant pained reports of delays and mishaps is all part of setting the ambiance for the game) you see what their up against.//

LOL. That's funny. I used to sell retail lighting where all product were made overseas. I'm constantly amazed that product showed up at all. There were numerous occasions where I would have a list of product that was suppose to on this crate from Whereever. I would constantly tell customers, "You understand that doesn't mean it's actually on the crate?"

They were always confused and often asked, "Well if it's not on the crate where is it? How long will it take to get?"

I'd shrug and say, "If it's not in this crate, it's in another one. Maybe it's still in China, maybe it's at another port, maybe it at the port, but it can't be released. Maybe the crate came in and product wasn't on it. Maybe the list they sent me is wrong and it hasn't actually been made yet."

So customers would then ask, "So in your opinion how long will it take to get?"

And I'd say, "My professional opinion is 4-6 weeks if things work correctly. If things don't work correctly 12 weeks or more. After 4 weeks I strongly suggest you call me to ask me to check on the status of your product. That's the best I can do."

I heard a story from a rep that an American Company I worked with wanted to do something nice for it's employees so for a Chinese Holiday that lasts a week, the plant decieded to close down so it's workers could celebrate. The workers miss understood what was happening and they thought they were all fired, so they all started looking for other jobs. It took months just to rehire people and get product out of plant again, I had backorders that were nearly a year old when that happened.

Recieving product from overseas is about as reliable as reading Tea Leaves.

And I look forward to GLOOM!

Chuck

That's funny. At least Atlas isn't alone in having these problems.

I have to admit to a little embarrassment though. I realised when I read back the quote you used that I'd used "their" instead of "they're". After a day of slating our corporate communications department today for using "effected" instead of "affected" I feel deeply ashamed and apologise unreservedly to any fellow pedants I would have offended.

I'm off to flagellate myself with the nearest book on English grammar I can find.